# Fiction writers: is TVTropes actually helpful to you in any way? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 21, 2012, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fiction-writers-is-tvtropes-actually-helpful-to-you-in-any-way/619539 "2012-04-21T22:16:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 11\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Christopher\_Robin\_Davies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8dc957/32.png) [@Christopher\_Robin\_Davies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Christopher_Robin_Davies)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2012, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fiction-writers-is-tvtropes-actually-helpful-to-you-in-any-way/619539/1 "2012-04-21T22:16:59Z")
Recently there was a pit thread about TVTropes. Here is the link: [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=648538&highlight=tvtropes](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=648538&highlight=tvtropes) Reading some links in that thread I saw where the person who started TVTropes claims that writers have told him that the site is actually useful to them in their occupation. Are there any writers here who have found that to be true? ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2012, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fiction-writers-is-tvtropes-actually-helpful-to-you-in-any-way/619539/2 "2012-04-21T23:06:28Z")
I’d say it’s probably more helpful for beginning writers. It helps codify and put into terms various aspects of a story, allowing the writer to be more conscious of what they’re writing, what roles their characters play, and that sort of thing. The lists of examples are great for showing a new writer what more accomplished storytellers did with those tropes and how they maybe might utilize them in their own stories. For instance, when I write I tend to be very straightforward. I don’t think very well in loops and circles. But after devouring the various sections on Chekov’s Gun and its variants, I have a much better idea on how to make elements that were presented early on have significant use later in the story, rather than simply being discarded and moving on with the plot. I knew the concept, of course, but having a trove of examples available shows the practical application of the trope as well. ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2012, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fiction-writers-is-tvtropes-actually-helpful-to-you-in-any-way/619539/3 "2012-04-22T01:01:50Z")
I’ve never referred to it when writing, but I’d been selling fiction for over 25 years before it came into existence. I suppose it might be a good list of things not to do (though many of the thing listed are perfectly fine – TV tropes catalogs both good and bad instances of things), but so is reading **Atlanta Nights.** ---
**Author:** ![elfkin477](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@elfkin477](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfkin477)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2012, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fiction-writers-is-tvtropes-actually-helpful-to-you-in-any-way/619539/4 "2012-04-22T03:56:47Z")
Nope, not particularly. Awesome for finding something interesting to read or watch though. ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2012, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fiction-writers-is-tvtropes-actually-helpful-to-you-in-any-way/619539/5 "2012-04-22T04:06:21Z")
I’ve found it helpful as a “Cliches to avoid” device, as well as providing an example of “Now what’s that thing where…?” devices. As **Bosstone** says, they have both good and bad tropes there. Personally I’ve found it a lot of fun to read through (site contributor’s apparent anime obsession notwithstanding), though. ---
**Author:** ![Dendarii\_Dame](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/bbce88/32.png) [@Dendarii\_Dame](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dendarii_Dame)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2012, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fiction-writers-is-tvtropes-actually-helpful-to-you-in-any-way/619539/6 "2012-04-22T14:25:40Z")
It’s unhelpful, because I spend time reading (and editing) it that I should spend on my own work. That goes double for this board. ---
**Author:** ![Imago](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/85e7bf/32.png) [@Imago](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Imago)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2012, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fiction-writers-is-tvtropes-actually-helpful-to-you-in-any-way/619539/7 "2012-04-22T15:29:37Z")
Well, recently I was reading through the examples on the Charge Into Combat Cut trope page. I wanted to read (or view, if there were no books) something ending with a Charge Into Combat Cut and never showing the aftermath, with all the plots being resolved before the characters go into battle in such a way that it almost doesn’t matter whether they survive the charge. And _there were no examples like this_, it was mostly just people using it for discretion or to add suspense. Guess what I’m writing now. Two weeks ago I would’ve said, “No, I don’t think it has been.” There are very few cliches in my last novel that actually _could_ have been avoided without losing the whole point of the story, and underneath the aesthetic bits the idea is original enough that they shouldn’t detract from its reading value. I think for a beginning writer or for one writing for sheer entertainment, for self-expression or to sell (as opposed to some intellectual or literary compulsion in my case) it might be more useful. I’ve met self-designated writers (who had never finished so much as a short story) who didn’t _realize_ a lot of the formulaic underpinnings of literature existed. If it closes down I don’t know where the hell I’ll point people like that anymore. ---
**Author:** ![phouka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c5a1d2/32.png) [@phouka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/phouka)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2012, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fiction-writers-is-tvtropes-actually-helpful-to-you-in-any-way/619539/8 "2012-04-22T17:15:53Z")
It’s helpful to remember - as the site points out - that tropes are not cliches; they are devices which enable the writer to compress and accelerate their stories. After all, unless you break new ground in every element of fiction (making your story nigh impossible to read because most readers need _some_ conventions to hold on to), you will end up using tropes. A trope can become a cliche through overuse and laziness on the writer’s part, but it doesn’t start off that way. I do find the site helpful both in identifying ideas that work well, analyzing why they work so well, and considering if there is some way I can adapt, change, subvert, or otherwise adopt a particular trope into my own writing. I like it because it addresses multiple media. What works in a novel may or may not work in a television show or a stage play. What works beautifully in a movie may not have been successfully translated to prose, but might inspire me to change perspective in my writing. I just have to put a timer on myself, because otherwise, I’ll stick my head into that site and not emerge for hours on end. ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2012, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fiction-writers-is-tvtropes-actually-helpful-to-you-in-any-way/619539/9 "2012-04-22T18:45:39Z")
> [@phouka](#): > > It’s helpful to remember - as the site points out - that tropes are not cliches; they are devices which enable the writer to compress and accelerate their stories. After all, unless you break new ground in every element of fiction (making your story nigh impossible to read because most readers need _some_ conventions to hold on to), you will end up using tropes. A trope can become a cliche through overuse and laziness on the writer’s part, but it doesn’t start off that way. Quite so. For instance, recognizing that a character in your story fits the trope of the Dragon can be helpful, as it might show you new ways to use that character that make for a more interesting story. But simply thinking of that character as the Dragon and nothing else makes it a flat, cliched character. ---
**Author:** ![Ranchoth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ranchoth/32/1066_2.png) [@Ranchoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ranchoth)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2012, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fiction-writers-is-tvtropes-actually-helpful-to-you-in-any-way/619539/10 "2012-04-22T22:52:54Z")
For me, yes. As **phouka** notes, it’s not just a “cliches” list—no more than Jung or Campbell just compiled cliches. Tropes are devices, themes, patterns. And if nothing else, reading through them provided inspiration, or food for introspection and brainstorming. “Okay, trope ‘X’ is common in adventure stories…why is that? Well, because of reasons ‘A’, ‘B’, and ‘C’. But what if you changed it, or left it out? What kind of story do you get, then? Or what would you have to change about the story to make trope ‘X’ not happen in the first place, what kind of story do I have then?” Being more familiar with tropes allows you to recognize them more easily—in other people’s fiction, or when they appear from your own pen—and makes you think about them when they show up. Of course, it’s also been great for less-analytical approaches, too. Like “what else has been done in a genre I’m interested in? What are the best works in it…or the _worst?_” Sometimes I’m curious about works with the subject of the value of artificial life and what it means to be “human”…or I just have a hankering to see superpowered maniacs battle to the death with rusty hooks. 😉 Sometimes, it helps me understand a work or a medium I’m a fan of better—reading [an anime trope by chance](http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:3ZHgR5NZvaoJ:tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/IdiotCrows+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us) a long while back allowed me to catch a joke in a [silent anime from 1929](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LXeUd9I_4Ao) that I saw months later. Hell, sometimes it’s just that I needed a breather, or a quick laugh, and getting caught up in reading something interesting would get me through a rough evening. That can be more valuable than anything else in the world. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2012, 4:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fiction-writers-is-tvtropes-actually-helpful-to-you-in-any-way/619539/11 "2012-04-23T04:54:05Z")
I don’t find it useful, since everything is listed. Go ahead, try to write a story that uses not one single trope anywhere in TVT! The very existence of a protagonist and an antagonist are hoary old tropes, thousands of years old. But they work, and they’re useful, and people like them, and besides, it’s next to impossible not to use them!