# Fictional characters and race in the modern media world... **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [April 9, 2014, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fictional-characters-and-race-in-the-modern-media-world/685753 "2014-04-09T20:56:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![planetcory](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/planetcory/32/1032_2.png) [@planetcory](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/planetcory)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2014, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fictional-characters-and-race-in-the-modern-media-world/685753/21 "2014-04-09T23:47:21Z")
> [@Rodgers01](#): > > Thanks! Most of those were white actors made up to look like members of a different race, which is still objectionable but different, I think, than what the OP meant. But there were some good examples of actually changing a minority’s character to white. How about we go with the recent spate of religious movies? Noah. Son of God. Christian Bale as Moses. Gods of Egypt’s all-white cast. Continuing the decades-long Hollywood tradition of casting white people as Egyptians and ancient dark-skinned semites. God forbid there’s an Egyptian Superman, though. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2014, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fictional-characters-and-race-in-the-modern-media-world/685753/22 "2014-04-09T23:51:24Z")
The insidious reality of this issue is that every classic comic book star was developed when the default image of a hero was a white (and presumably straight and Christian) man. Having a few women sprinkled among them was a daring and progressive move. Even those few good noble sidekicks of color tended to be gross caricatures like The Spirit’s Ebony White or the Blackhawks Chop Chop. The Silver Age had the non-caricatured and therefore progressive Green Lantern’s Pieface, because what other name can you give someone who is Eskimo? Good intentions no longer seem sufficient, for understandable reasons. Everything written and created from here on on has to conform to this new reality or suffer the consequences. History has an unfortunate habit of living on into the present, though. I can’t do much better than the OP’s “an incredibly sticky and complex issue.” What do you do with that huge weight of history that seems to be pressing down on those who aren’t straight white male Christians? And what do you do with all those straight white male Christians who don’t want anything to change? You muddle on. You compromise. You win some, you lose some. Everybody gets angry and bad feelings linger on for years. And the next generation gets to do it all over again. ---
**Author:** ![OneCentStamp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/13edae/32.png) [@OneCentStamp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OneCentStamp)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2014, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fictional-characters-and-race-in-the-modern-media-world/685753/23 "2014-04-09T23:55:33Z")
> [@KneadToKnow](#): > > Here’s [a quick whitewashing slideshow](http://www.salon.com/2012/05/14/whitewashing_a_history/slide_show/1) that includes more fictional characters. The still of Laurence “Soul Man” Olivier as Othello, which I believe made both lists, made me spray some of my drink out through my nostrils. ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2014, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fictional-characters-and-race-in-the-modern-media-world/685753/24 "2014-04-09T23:57:44Z")
> [@planetcory](#): > > How about we go with the recent spate of religious movies? Noah. Son of God. Christian Bale as Moses. Gods of Egypt’s all-white cast. Noah is literally a member of every existing race. I don’t think its possible to miscast him, ethnicity-wise. ---
**Author:** ![OneCentStamp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/13edae/32.png) [@OneCentStamp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OneCentStamp)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2014, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fictional-characters-and-race-in-the-modern-media-world/685753/25 "2014-04-09T23:57:53Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > You muddle on. You compromise. You win some, you lose some. Everybody gets angry and bad feelings linger on for years. And the next generation gets to do it all over again. But it does gradually get better. For evidence, look no further than those shots of Sir Laurence, one of the most revered actors ever, pulling off with a straight face what would now be considered territory for Rob Schneider or one of the Wayans brothers. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2014, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fictional-characters-and-race-in-the-modern-media-world/685753/26 "2014-04-09T23:59:32Z")
> [@Simplicio](#): > > A black Captain America is kind of a stretch, at least one with the traditional backstory. Its pretty hard seeing the 1940’s US army choosing a black guy as a propaganda tool. The point in the comics is that Steve Rogers was a scrawny 4F, so why not test the experimental serum on him before tinkering as needed and giving it to able-bodied soldiers? If he’s crippled or killed, eh, no big loss. As it happens, (a) it worked perfectly, and (b) that’s when the only guy who knew the formula got killed. So slotting a black man to play guinea pig isn’t too far-fetched; it kinda fits perfectly. ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2014, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fictional-characters-and-race-in-the-modern-media-world/685753/27 "2014-04-10T00:02:01Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > The point in the comics is that Steve Rogers was a scrawny 4F, so why not test the experimental serum on him before tinkering as needed and giving it to able-bodied soldiers? If he’s crippled or killed, eh, no big loss. As it happens, (a) it worked perfectly, and (b) that’s when the only guy who knew the formula got killed. > > So slotting a black man to play guinea pig isn’t too far-fetched; it kinda fits perfectly. Yea, but afterwards don’t they put him forward as the “ideal soldier” for propaganda purposes (hence the costume). I can’t really see the 1940’s military doing that. ---
**Author:** ![OneCentStamp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/13edae/32.png) [@OneCentStamp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OneCentStamp)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2014, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fictional-characters-and-race-in-the-modern-media-world/685753/28 "2014-04-10T00:03:19Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > The point in the comics is that Steve Rogers was a scrawny 4F, so why not test the experimental serum on him before tinkering as needed and giving it to able-bodied soldiers? If he’s crippled or killed, eh, no big loss. As it happens, (a) it worked perfectly, and (b) that’s when the only guy who knew the formula got killed. > > So slotting a black man to play guinea pig isn’t too far-fetched; it kinda fits perfectly. The Tuskegee Super Soldiers! ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2014, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fictional-characters-and-race-in-the-modern-media-world/685753/29 "2014-04-10T00:05:54Z")
> [@Simplicio](#): > > Yea, but afterwards don’t they put him forward as the “ideal soldier” for propaganda purposes (hence the costume). I can’t really see the 1940’s military doing that. What, like Joe Louis? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![OneCentStamp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/13edae/32.png) [@OneCentStamp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OneCentStamp)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2014, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fictional-characters-and-race-in-the-modern-media-world/685753/30 "2014-04-10T00:12:08Z")
> [@Simplicio](#): > > Yea, but afterwards don’t they put him forward as the “ideal soldier” for propaganda purposes (hence the costume). I can’t really see the 1940’s military doing that. It would have been revolutionary at a time when US military units were still segregated, but not outlandishly impossible. I mean, as early as May 1938 FDR had Joe Louis visit the White House before his rematch with Max Schmeling, shake his hand and say, “Joe, we need muscles like yours to beat Germany.” I mean, that almost reads like a panel from a comic book already, and it certainly indicates that America could handle a black hero, as long as the enemy was sufficiently menacing and the hero kept his hands off the white ladies. EDIT: NINJA’D!!! :mad: 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2014, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fictional-characters-and-race-in-the-modern-media-world/685753/31 "2014-04-10T00:17:53Z")
And in fact, that’s more or less the backstory behind the black Captain America: They tested early versions of the serum on a series of black subjects, and only after it finally worked on one of them did they move on to use it on the white Steve Rogers. But the government just abandoned the black supersoldier (and all of the unsuccessful ones before him) after the experiments were done, unlike the propaganda symbol they turned Rogers into. I never actually read the books, but I think it was Rogers who eventually found out about these early experiments, and tracked down his black predecessor to make sure he got what he was due. ---
**Author:** ![cochrane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cochrane/32/10441_2.png) [@cochrane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cochrane)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2014, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fictional-characters-and-race-in-the-modern-media-world/685753/32 "2014-04-10T02:33:40Z")
> [@OneCentStamp](#): > > My guess is that Captain America is played by a white actor in 2014 not because Captain America MUST be white, but because there aren’t really any African-American actors (with the possible exception of Will Smith) who are safe bets to cast in the lead role of an action film that’s expected to break all box office records. However, Will Smith turned down the part of Superman for _Superman Returns_. He was quoted as saying, "There is no way I’m playing Superman! Because I had already done Jim West [of ‘Wild Wild West’], and you can’t be messing up white people’s heroes in Hollywood! You mess up white people’s heroes in Hollywood, you’ll never work in this town again!” Of course, he was probably influenced by the box-office failure of _Wild Wild West_ and in retrospect is probably glad he turned down _Superman Returns_, as well. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2014, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fictional-characters-and-race-in-the-modern-media-world/685753/33 "2014-04-10T04:14:39Z")
> [@Leaper](#): > > But I always thought that was because very few people cared THAT much about a mildly obscure, decades old TV show. And the same is true about a decades old comic strip character. Honestly, never in my life have I ever encountered a single person outside of this message board who even once discussed comic book characters, except for those who’ve been made into movie or TV characters and hence became more mainstream. I think the percentage of the potential audience who would care about the race of the character is vanishingly small. Though that’s not quite the same as saying there may be a wider selection of bankable white actors than black actors to fill any given leading role. The closest non-racial thing I can recall to this is a couple years back when there was a lot of upset right here about Jack Reacher’s character being portrayed by Tom Cruise, because Reacher was like 6’6" in the books. But what percentage of people who might see the movie had read any of the books? 1%? 5%? ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2014, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fictional-characters-and-race-in-the-modern-media-world/685753/34 "2014-04-10T04:25:50Z")
> [@OneCentStamp](#): > > I don’t think it’s as hidebound as he seems to think it is. Making Nick Fury African-American when he was white in the comics didn’t seem to do more than elicit a few comments. Casting Jessica Alba as the Invisible Girl didn’t bother me at all except that it provided a glaring problem when her brother was left being played by a white guy (Chris Evans, incidentally!) with no explanation. You do realize that outside of North America the idea that Jessica Alba isn’t white is utterly ludicrous if not racist. Besides, there was no hint that her character was supposed to be Latina and plenty of Latino and Latina actors have played anglo characters. For examply Miguel Ferrer, Andy Garcia, Cameron Diaz, Martin Sheen, Emilio Estevez, Jon Ceda, and Armand Assante. For that matter, I don’t remember any Latinos getting upset at James Turtorro playing a Puerto Rican detective on NYPD Blue or Francis Capra playing a Mexican-American gang leader on Veronica Mars because they were able to convincingly play the part. ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2014, 11:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fictional-characters-and-race-in-the-modern-media-world/685753/35 "2014-04-10T11:34:21Z")
> [@OneCentStamp](#): > > The Tuskegee Super Soldiers! Yes. Exactly. ---
**Author:** ![OneCentStamp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/13edae/32.png) [@OneCentStamp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OneCentStamp)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2014, 11:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fictional-characters-and-race-in-the-modern-media-world/685753/36 "2014-04-10T11:41:53Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > You do realize that outside of North America the idea that Jessica Alba isn’t white is utterly ludicrous if not racist. > > Besides, there was no hint that her character was supposed to be Latina and plenty of Latino and Latina actors have played anglo characters. > > For examply Miguel Ferrer, Andy Garcia, Cameron Diaz, Martin Sheen, Emilio Estevez, Jon Ceda, and Armand Assante. > > For that matter, I don’t remember any Latinos getting upset at James Turtorro playing a Puerto Rican detective on NYPD Blue or Francis Capra playing a Mexican-American gang leader on Veronica Mars because they were able to convincingly play the part. I can’t speak to how someone with Jessica Alba’s name and appearance is perceived outside of North America. I know that I’ve always looked at her and instantly thought, “Oh, probably an American of some latina extraction.” Maybe it’s because her character on _Dark Angel_ had a (self-given) Spanish last name and that’s colored my perception of her ever since. But your second paragraph basically seems to agree with what I felt. I didn’t find it odd or jarring at all that Jessica Alba was cast as Sue Storm, only that she was cast as Chris Evans’ sister without even any pretense of saying she was his half-sister or stepsister. ---
**Author:** ![OneCentStamp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/13edae/32.png) [@OneCentStamp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OneCentStamp)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2014, 12:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fictional-characters-and-race-in-the-modern-media-world/685753/37 "2014-04-10T12:08:20Z")
> [@cochrane](#): > > However, Will Smith turned down the part of Superman for _Superman Returns_. He was quoted as saying, "There is no way I’m playing Superman! Because I had already done Jim West [of ‘Wild Wild West’], and you can’t be messing up white people’s heroes in Hollywood! You mess up white people’s heroes in Hollywood, you’ll never work in this town again!” > > Of course, he was probably influenced by the box-office failure of _Wild Wild West_ and in retrospect is probably glad he turned down _Superman Returns_, as well. Well, I’m glad he turned it down, not because he’s black, but because I think he’s terrible. And in a similar vein, I wonder if he realizes _Wild Wild West_ was a failure not because he was cast in an originally white role (How many people even knew Jim West? A lot fewer than Superman, that’s for sure.), but because it was terrible. ---
**Author:** ![Sean\_Factotum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/50afbb/32.png) [@Sean\_Factotum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sean_Factotum)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2014, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fictional-characters-and-race-in-the-modern-media-world/685753/38 "2014-04-10T13:28:16Z")
[QUOTE=KneadToKnow] But isn’t that at least partly because he’d already been re-worked as African-American in the comics, with his look based on Samuel L., and been a big hit with fans? That was my understanding, anyway. [/QUOTE] > [@OneCentStamp](#): > > Ah, I had no idea of that. That would certainly ease the transition. And here is the panel from one of the first Ultimates books where [they’re discussing who will play them in movies.](http://spacemeat.com.au/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/nick-fury.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![Shakester](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shakester/32/437_2.png) [@Shakester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shakester)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2014, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fictional-characters-and-race-in-the-modern-media-world/685753/39 "2014-04-10T13:32:21Z")
[Cleopatra VII](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cleopatra_VII) - the one portrayed by Liz Taylor - was Greek. Macedonian, in fact. In other words, not a “person of colour” by any sane definition. ---
**Author:** ![Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba9def/32.png) [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Asking_Questions)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2014, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fictional-characters-and-race-in-the-modern-media-world/685753/40 "2014-04-10T14:40:55Z")
> [@cochrane](#): > > However, Will Smith turned down the part of Superman for _Superman Returns_. He was quoted as saying, "There is no way I’m playing Superman! Because I had already done Jim West [of ‘Wild Wild West’], and you can’t be messing up white people’s heroes in Hollywood! You mess up white people’s heroes in Hollywood, you’ll never work in this town again!” > > Of course, he was probably influenced by the box-office failure of _Wild Wild West_ and in retrospect is probably glad he turned down _Superman Returns_, as well. The problem wasn’t that a [horror!] Black man was playing a “white hero” that made me hate the casting, so much as the character of West could not be Black in the 1870s. There’s no way he could be in the Secret Service, and not much chance any random person he would come across would respect him. He’d fight a lot, just like Conrad’s character, but only because everyone picked a fight with him because of his skin. Smith should be apologizing for how incredibly BAD the movie was. They had to know during filming what it was. Makes \*The Wild Wild West Revisited \*look like a masterpiece. Having a Black man play Superman could be awesome. How about Michael Ealy? (Too old? I was surprised to see he is 40.) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fictional-characters-and-race-in-the-modern-media-world/685753.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fictional-characters-and-race-in-the-modern-media-world/685753.md?page=3)