# Fictional Heroes and Villains From a Different Perspective **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [May 2, 2010, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fictional-heroes-and-villains-from-a-different-perspective/537998 "2010-05-02T01:48:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2010, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fictional-heroes-and-villains-from-a-different-perspective/537998/1 "2010-05-02T01:48:35Z")
If one assumes that a work of fiction is not a world all to its own of the author but a world where an objective standard or the reader’s morality and beliefs can be applied like the real world many characters who are “heroes” can be villains" and “villains” can be heroes. To give an example Supreme Chancellor Palpatine (later Emperor) is portrayed in written and visual descriptions of Star Wars as “evil” but in many ways if seen from an objective view have several reedeeming characteristics. Palpatine managed to bring stability to the Galaxy and militarily prepared for the Yuuzhun Vong invasion which the weakened New Republic was devestated by. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2010, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fictional-heroes-and-villains-from-a-different-perspective/537998/2 "2010-05-02T02:21:05Z")
The Joker is single handedly keeping 15 Gotham mortuaries in business. ---
**Author:** ![Yodalicious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yodalicious/32/8195_2.png) [@Yodalicious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yodalicious)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2010, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fictional-heroes-and-villains-from-a-different-perspective/537998/3 "2010-05-02T02:24:41Z")
Lexcorp and SPECTRE must keep thousands, maybe tens of thousands of people, employed around the world. ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2010, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fictional-heroes-and-villains-from-a-different-perspective/537998/4 "2010-05-02T03:04:33Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > To give an example Supreme Chancellor Palpatine (later Emperor) is portrayed in written and visual descriptions of Star Wars as “evil” but in many ways if seen from an objective view have several reedeeming characteristics. Palpatine managed to bring stability to the Galaxy and militarily prepared for the Yuuzhun Vong invasion which the weakened New Republic was devestated by. He blew up an inhabited planet for target practice. I’d say he’s pretty solidly evil regardless of one’s perspective. ---
**Author:** ![AClockworkMelon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aclockworkmelon/32/10803_2.png) [@AClockworkMelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AClockworkMelon)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2010, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fictional-heroes-and-villains-from-a-different-perspective/537998/5 "2010-05-02T03:07:07Z")
Agreed with **Simplicio** , Palpatine can’t be portrayed in a positive light. Any instability he cured the Galaxy of was instability that he created to begin with. I was going to suggest the Abrahamic God but he’s pretty irredeemable, too. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2010, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fictional-heroes-and-villains-from-a-different-perspective/537998/6 "2010-05-02T03:25:39Z")
As much as I find that I am not surprised that Curtis LeMay has a favorable view of Senator Palpatine, I suspect that this discussion will do better in Cafe Society. If it takes a different turn, the CS Mods may choose to send it back, but I am going to let it germinate in that soil. (I’m sure that the good senator did what he could to make the trains run on time, of course. 😛 ) [/Modding] ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2010, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fictional-heroes-and-villains-from-a-different-perspective/537998/7 "2010-05-02T03:27:16Z")
> [@Simplicio](#): > > He blew up an inhabited planet for target practice. I’d say he’s pretty solidly evil regardless of one’s perspective. Technically, it was Grand Moff Tarkin who blew up the inhabited planet. And it wasn’t for target practice. It was to terrorize the citizens of the Empire so that they’d be too frightened to stop the growing Rebellion. ---
**Author:** ![AClockworkMelon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aclockworkmelon/32/10803_2.png) [@AClockworkMelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AClockworkMelon)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2010, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fictional-heroes-and-villains-from-a-different-perspective/537998/8 "2010-05-02T03:30:41Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > Technically, it was Grand Moff Tarkin who blew up the inhabited planet. And it wasn’t for target practice. It was to terrorize the citizens of the Empire so that they’d be too frightened to stop the growing Rebellion. Actually, it was to incite rebellion. Star Wars: The Force Unleashed ftw! ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2010, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fictional-heroes-and-villains-from-a-different-perspective/537998/9 "2010-05-02T03:35:16Z")
> [@Simplicio](#): > > He blew up an inhabited planet for target practice. I’d say he’s pretty solidly evil regardless of one’s perspective. Proportionally speaking (considering the Galaxy has quadrillions, possibly quintillions of sentinent beings) it isn’t much compared to the actions of say Qin Shi Huangdi or even the Allied bombing campaigns in World War II but there are quite a few people who consider the latter two actions to be in the long run beneficial or at least better than if it had happened otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![AClockworkMelon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aclockworkmelon/32/10803_2.png) [@AClockworkMelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AClockworkMelon)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2010, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fictional-heroes-and-villains-from-a-different-perspective/537998/10 "2010-05-02T03:41:27Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > Proportionally speaking (considering the Galaxy has quadrillions, possibly quintillions of sentinent beings) it isn’t much compared to the actions of say Qin Shi Huangdi or even the Allied bombing campaigns in World War II but there are quite a few people who consider the latter two actions to be in the long run beneficial or at least better than if it had happened otherwise. Gotcha. So the higher the population gets the less each life matters ethically. A murder in the Star Wars universe is like… a quarter murder here. Not doing such a good job defending 'ol Pappy. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2010, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fictional-heroes-and-villains-from-a-different-perspective/537998/11 "2010-05-02T04:04:46Z")
> [@AClockworkMelon](#): > > Gotcha. So the higher the population gets the less each life matters ethically. A murder in the Star Wars universe is like… a quarter murder here. > > Not doing such a good job defending 'ol Pappy. Ethically it remains the same but even the “good” characters are willing to kill a whole lot of people to minimize worse situations as seen in this case: [http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Battle\_of\_Tralus\_(Second\_Galactic\_Civil\_War)](http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Battle_of_Tralus_(Second_Galactic_Civil_War)) Indeed the general consensus among Star Wars fandom is that had the Galactic Empire maintained Galactic unity the Yuuzhun Vong invasion would have been defeated far easily. ---
**Author:** ![AClockworkMelon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aclockworkmelon/32/10803_2.png) [@AClockworkMelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AClockworkMelon)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2010, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fictional-heroes-and-villains-from-a-different-perspective/537998/12 "2010-05-02T04:13:16Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > Ethically it remains the same but even the “good” characters are willing to kill a whole lot of people to minimize worse situations as seen in this case: [http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Battle\_of\_Tralus\_(Second\_Galactic\_Civil\_War)](http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Battle_of_Tralus_(Second_Galactic_Civil_War)) > [@Your cite](#): > > Conventional fighting on Tralus would have caused excessive civilian casualties, so Karathas’ original plan was to turn what would have been a public opinion disaster into an asset. > [@Your cite](#): > > Fortunately, Antilles devised a far less wanton battle plan which was eventually put forward. Even in war the good guys are attempting to minimize casualties. This of course has nothing to do with what happened in _A New Hope_. They didn’t destroy the planet to reduce casualties, they destroyed the planet to further incite the rebellion so that they could draw their attackers into the open. They didn’t have morality at heart. It was all cold efficiency. I mean, retarded efficiency, but hey, it’s Star Wars, you can’t really expect great writing (unless you’re talking about _Empire Strikes Back_). > [@Pappy for President](#): > > Indeed the general consensus among Star Wars fandom is that had the Galactic Empire maintained Galactic unity the Yuuzhun Vong invasion would have been defeated far easily. Had the Galactic Republic not been destabilized to begin with they would have done even better. Seriously, one of the things that was kept in mind during the design of Star Wars was how black and white everything is. That’s what Lucas has said in interviews. It’s unshakable good versus irredeemable evil. And yes, I’m aware that Vader is an exception to this- but honestly, Lucas likely had no clue he was actually Anakin Skywalker when he wrote _A New Hope_. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2010, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fictional-heroes-and-villains-from-a-different-perspective/537998/13 "2010-05-02T04:37:43Z")
> [@AClockworkMelon](#): > > They didn’t destroy the planet to reduce casualties, they destroyed the planet to further incite the rebellion so that they could draw their attackers into the open. They didn’t have morality at heart. It was all cold efficiency. I mean, retarded efficiency, but hey, it’s Star Wars, you can’t really expect great writing (unless you’re talking about _Empire Strikes Back_). I don’t think that was the motive in the movie. In the movie, the purpose of the death star was so that “fear [would] keep the local systems in line. Fear of this battle station”, and Alderaan was destroyed as an “effective demonstration” of the death star’s power. It’s like when you’re occupying a country, you take hostages and say, “If any of our troops are killed, we’ll kill so many hostages.” Same principle, just different scale. Is it evil? I don’t know. Is it evil to indiscriminately kill innocent people to maintain a totalitarian police state? Maybe in your ideal world. ---
**Author:** ![AClockworkMelon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aclockworkmelon/32/10803_2.png) [@AClockworkMelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AClockworkMelon)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2010, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fictional-heroes-and-villains-from-a-different-perspective/537998/14 "2010-05-02T04:41:56Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > I don’t think that was the motive in the movie. In the movie, the purpose of the death star was so that “fear [would] keep the local systems in line. Fear of this battle station”, and Alderaan was destroyed as an “effective demonstration” of the death star’s power. > > It’s like when you’re occupying a country, you take hostages and say, “If any of our troops are killed, we’ll kill so many hostages.” Same principle, just different scale. > > Is it evil? I don’t know. Is it evil to indiscriminately kill innocent people to maintain a totalitarian police state? Maybe in your ideal world. Unfortunately, as far as I know, this was retroactively changed with the creation of Force Unleashed. Yes, it’s as canon as the rest of the Expanded Universe stuff. But I get where you’re coming from. Let’s say for the sake of argument that his intentions were as they have been for the last 30+ years. Intentions to inspire terror hardly makes something more moral. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2010, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fictional-heroes-and-villains-from-a-different-perspective/537998/15 "2010-05-02T04:46:14Z")
And let’s not forget the enslavement of non-humans – the Empire thought that any species that wasn’t human were, well, (you can’t really say “sub-human”) so I guess his view would be similiar to how Hitler thought of Jews, or how blacks were treated as slaves. **AClockworkMelon** – I think you’re confusing ROTJ with ANH. Remember, the Emperor let the Death Star location become known to draw the Rebellion there so he could crush it. ---
**Author:** ![AClockworkMelon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aclockworkmelon/32/10803_2.png) [@AClockworkMelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AClockworkMelon)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2010, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fictional-heroes-and-villains-from-a-different-perspective/537998/16 "2010-05-02T04:50:46Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > **AClockworkMelon** – I think you’re confusing ROTJ with ANH. Remember, the Emperor let the Death Star location become known to draw the Rebellion there so he could crush it. Nope. The Alliance to Restore the Republic was effectively created by Pappy a la Galen Marek. That’s pre-ANH. The last thing Pappy wanted to do was suppress the rebellion and send them into hiding. He wanted to goad them into attacking him directly. ---
**Author:** ![Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b38774/32.png) [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Attack_from_the_3rd_dimension)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2010, 5:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fictional-heroes-and-villains-from-a-different-perspective/537998/17 "2010-05-02T05:02:32Z")
Little know fact: Emperor Palpatine loved his [del]dog [/del]Ewok. ---
**Author:** ![Chef\_Troy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/85f322/32.png) [@Chef\_Troy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chef_Troy)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2010, 5:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fictional-heroes-and-villains-from-a-different-perspective/537998/18 "2010-05-02T05:11:32Z")
The book _Wicked_ and the stage musical made from it re-tell the events of _The Wizard of Oz_ (and the events leading up to them) from the point of view of the Wicked Witch of the West. It turns out she was very misunderstood. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Noel\_Prosequi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b19c9b/32.png) [@Noel\_Prosequi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Noel_Prosequi)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2010, 5:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fictional-heroes-and-villains-from-a-different-perspective/537998/19 "2010-05-02T05:14:16Z")
Palpatine probably named his Ewok Blondi. But back to the spirit of the OP - a good example of all of this is _Wicked_. In the Wizard of Oz, the wicked witch is, well, pretty damn evil. Flying monkeys. First rate cackle. The full catastrophe, really. She is completely rewritten from a sympathetic perspective in _WIcked_. ETA - beaten to the punch by **Chef Troy** ---
**Author:** ![Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b38774/32.png) [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Attack_from_the_3rd_dimension)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2010, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fictional-heroes-and-villains-from-a-different-perspective/537998/20 "2010-05-02T05:15:40Z")
Have you read _Wicked_? It reinterprets the Wicked Witch of the West from a more sympathetic point of view. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fictional-heroes-and-villains-from-a-different-perspective/537998.md?page=2)