Field goals and timeouts (NFL)

[cmosdes]

@Marley23

In a lot of contexts, sure. In this one, I don’t see the advantage. And regardless of what the athlete thinks, I don’t see how this improves your chances of winning.

Neither of us has any data to back up the claim, so I guess this one can go down as agree to disagree. I think a kicker would rather want a chance to practice a field goal attempt before the real thing.

@Marley23

It might or it might not. That’s not necessarily going to take 8 seconds. This is getting difficult because you keep changing the scenario. First the team was on the 35 yard line with 8 seconds left, then it’s the 25 with 4 or 6 or some other amount. If you’re at the 25, that means a 42-yard field goal and the team might just kick it instead of taking on the risks of running another play. At the 52 that might be different because it could be a significantly tougher kick.

Fair enough. I have changed it because I was trying to take away some of the side arguments, such as “a team might not attempt a field goal from 52 yards.” I’ll just go with the scenario of 6 seconds left and the ball on the 28. 3rd and 10 and the clock is running.

@Marley23

Yes, it is: if the offense spikes the ball, send in the field goal unit, and the snap is bad, they can fall on the ball and call timeout and have a chance to kick again. (This would apply on first and second down, but not third.) If they run the “practice play” and waste their timeout and then have a bad snap, they’re screwed and the game is over. My point was that the team is removing a tool from its arsenal. In one of these two situations, they can go through a bad snap and still have a chance to kick again. In the other, they don’t and the game is over. Does that clear things up?

Yes it is. See above.

In all the situations you’ve said the team runs OTHER than using the timeout for a practice kick, the offense ends up burning a timeout before the final kick, or at least is making it moot. If they run one more offensive play with 8 seconds left and manage to get out of bounds, there will only be 4 seconds left. They still have the timeout, but if they muff the snap it won’t do any good. If they run an offensive play of ANY sort (other than attempting the kick), they won’t have time to use the timeout if they muff the kick. If they call the timeout to put the FG unit on the field, well, there goes the timeout and if they muff the snap they are screwed. If they spike the ball and get the FG unit on the field a timeout is useless since now it is 4th down and a muffed snap means a turnover on downs. There just isn’t any scenario where using the timeout for a practice kick is any worse in terms of risk because of a muffed snap. If the snap for the practice kick is muffed, no big deal because timeout was called. If the snap for the real kick is muffed, it is the same as in every other scenario you’ve offered as counter, better option.

@Marley23

How are you screwed in that case?

See above.

@Marley23

This doesn’t make any sense. You’re saying the team should use their last timeout on a practice field goal. I’m saying they should use the timeout to manage the clock and try to get more yards, leading to a chance at an easier field goal. Practice doesn’t enter into my scenario.

You were advocating saving the timeout for the snapper or holder (whoever muffs the snap). I’m saying why would you not just make the same assumptions you do with them as you do with the kicker? They’ve done it thousands of times as well. At least as many as the kicker in that game.

@Marley23

8 seconds is plenty of time to run a play, especially if you have a timeout.

Possibly. It is risky, as I said. Just ask the Giants about mishandling a handoff.

@Marley23

At 6 seconds, maybe not. The specifics matter, which is why it’s a little difficult to discuss this hypothetical when you keep changing them.

Fair enough. I was just trying to indicate that I didn’t think there was a very, very limited situation in which this applies. But I can see where some of these specifics do change the dynamics. So we’ll go with what I said above.

@Marley23

Here is what I think:

The kicker doesn’t need a practice kick, and the team is better served by keeping the timeout either as insurance (second try after a bad snap) or using it to move the ball closer (easier FG) then deliberately wasting it for practice. If neither of those apply - because it’s fourth down or there’s not enough time left or some other thing - then the timeout isn’t worth anything anyway, but I still don’t think you are improving your odds by giving the kicker practice. What I was saying earlier is that, contrary to your suggestion that the practice try will work out the kinks, it just introduces different possible ways for things to go wrong.

There are things that can go wrong in this, without a doubt. The signals could be crossed and timeout isn’t called on time. The FG unit might not get on the field in time. Due to rushing on and off the field, there could be penalties for too many men on the field, etc. But as far as some of the other things mentioned, a bad snap, I just don’t see any additional risk.

However, I do see your argument that there could be a lot better things to do with the timeout than give the guy a practice kick. I’m just thinking that if the coach has made up his mind that it is the right time to attempt a field goal, and he happens to have a timeout left, why not use it for a practice kick?

[azraiel]

@Munch

Yes, I confused “delay of game” and “unsportsmanlike” and the actual penalty in play. I did not believe they’re operating with just one ball. You clearly understood my tack, so why say its a non sequitur? The defense can be charged with delay of game for such a stall tactic, so I assumed there’d be an offensive equivalent.

Now I’m really confused as to what you’re arguing. The defense can be charged with Delay of Game for what stalling tactic, exactly?

Delay of Game can be called on the offense for not getting a play off within the 25/40 second play clock. It can be called on either the offense or defense for continuing to lie on a dead ball on the field of play or another player after a play has been ruled dead. It can be called on either team for throwing the ball after a play has been ruled dead. It can be called if the offense repeatedly snaps the ball before all officials are set (ready signal given). It can be called on the defense if any set player tries repeatedly to draw an offside. Finally, it can be called if either team decides to really drag ass back to the field after a timeout.

As noted above, each team can take a timeout (if one is available) in the dead ball period. So it is legal (I’ll leave the wisdom of such acts to the Marley23/cmosdes sub-thread going on) for both the defense to “ice” and the offense to “practice” the same try, with each calling a timeout. After this point, only an official can call a timeout. Any further attempts to call timeout by either team are ignored by rule. Attempts by the defense to call a second timeout are ignored and result in an Unsportsmanlike Conduct Penalty. Attempts by the offense are ignored and result in a clock run-off of 10 seconds.

[Marley23]

@cmosdes

I think a kicker would rather want a chance to practice a field goal attempt before the real thing.

I’m not sure they would, and I’m not convinced it would actually help them make the kick.

I have changed it because I was trying to take away some of the side arguments, such as “a team might not attempt a field goal from 52 yards.”

They would if they were down by 2 at the end of the game.

In all the situations you’ve said the team runs OTHER than using the timeout for a practice kick, the offense ends up burning a timeout before the final kick, or at least is making it moot.

Right, but they get some value from the timeout. I don’t think the practice kick is worth anything in terms of their odds of converting the FG. Gaining yards and trying a shorter field goal makes it more likely they’ll make the kick. There are two ways they can get value from the timeout: either using it as insurance in case of a bad snap, or using it to stop the clock so they can run a play and try to gain additional yards. In the first scenario, they may not use the timeout at all, but I am contending it’s worth something as insurance on the off-chance the snap is bad. That scenario doesn’t work if you have spiked the ball on third down (I didn’t make that clear earlier and I tried to acknowledge it in my last post) because you would have a turnover on downs anyway. But in earlier-down situations it could matter.

There just isn’t any scenario where using the timeout for a practice kick is any worse in terms of risk because of a muffed snap.

Again, yes, there is: any time where you’re kicking earlier than fourth down and there is still some time on the clock.

If the snap for the practice kick is muffed, no big deal because timeout was called. If the snap for the real kick is muffed, it is the same as in every other scenario you’ve offered as counter, better option.

It’s different because if the real snap goes bad, you can’t call timeout because you’ve already used your last timeout on the practice snap.

[muldoonthief]

@cmosdes

Neither of us has any data to back up the claim, so I guess this one can go down as agree to disagree. I think a kicker would rather want a chance to practice a field goal attempt before the real thing.

There is data - in that no NFL or college team does this. If the people who actually play the game don’t think this would improve their chances of winning, or that saving the timeout for a potential bad snap would be more useful than a practice kick, why do you claim they’re wrong?

[Telemark]

Extra thinking in a pressure situation is rarely good. I suspect most kickers would just want to get out there and kick the damn ball.

[cmosdes]

@Marley23

I’m not sure they would, and I’m not convinced it would actually help them make the kick.

They would if they were down by 2 at the end of the game.

It isn’t that clear cut. It is situational, as you’ve attested. 3rd down and 8 seconds left with 1 timeout down by 2. Does the coach try a 52 yard field goal or risk trying to gain more yards? You’ve said yourself the coach might try to gain more yards. Or they might not. It depends on the situation, the conditions and the coach. I changed scenarios because I wanted to avoid those side debates. I wanted the situation to be where there was no doubt that it was time to kick the FG. It moves the discussion into whether it is better to give the kicker a practice kick or not, not whether the situation is right for a FG or not.

@Marley23

Right, but they get some value from the timeout. I don’t think the practice kick is worth anything in terms of their odds of converting the FG. Gaining yards and trying a shorter field goal makes it more likely they’ll make the kick. There are two ways they can get value from the timeout: either using it as insurance in case of a bad snap, or using it to stop the clock so they can run a play and try to gain additional yards. In the first scenario, they may not use the timeout at all, but I am contending it’s worth something as insurance on the off-chance the snap is bad. That scenario doesn’t work if you have spiked the ball on third down (I didn’t make that clear earlier and I tried to acknowledge it in my last post) because you would have a turnover on downs anyway. But in earlier-down situations it could matter.

I have changed scenarios a bit, but I have never, not once, wavered it being 3rd down. Now, if you want to argue all this is happening on 2nd or 1st down, have at it. The situation I’m talking about is on 3rd down. And, to be clear, I’m trying to move this to a point where the coach has decided it is time to kick the field goal. For some coaches 3rd and long with 8 seconds left wouldn’t be worth risking another play, so on comes the FG unit. For other coaches, they might try another play as you mentioned. I want to avoid that part of the discussion. Whatever situation you need to come up with so the coach has determined they need to kick the FG, use that. Now the question is whether to use the timeout to allow the FG unit time to setup on the field or save it for something else.

If the coach reserves the timeout as insurance against a bad snap, as you are saying, then the FG unit needs to get setup on the field quickly and snap the ball within the 25 second play clock. If the snap is muffed, they call timeout and now have to attempt the kick from 7 yards further back. In both your situation and mine, the FG unit is rushing onto the field to get setup to attempt the kick. In my situation, the muffed snap is meaningless. The kick will still be whatever it was before the muffed snap.

If they use the timeout so the FG unit doesn’t have to rush onto the field, then if the snap is muffed the game is over. No second chances.

Once again, there just isn’t any benefit to saving that timeout if the first snap is muffed. In your situation and mine, there will be a second kick. In mine, the kick will actually be 7 yards closer than in yours.

If the first snap is good, the kicker in your scenario gets his 1 attempt at the field goal. He’s done it a thousand times before, so maybe one more practice shot isn’t worth much. But see below.

@Marley23

Again, yes, there is: any time where you’re kicking earlier than fourth down and there is still some time on the clock.

It’s different because if the real snap goes bad, you can’t call timeout because you’ve already used your last timeout on the practice snap.

In both our scenarios there are going to be two snaps if the first one is muffed. In both our scenarios if the second one is muffed the game ends. In my scenario if the first one ISN’T muffed the kicker gets a practice shot.

I don’t disagree that this may be something the kicker doesn’t even want, as Telemark has pointed out and you’ve been saying. It could be. And I guess that is the crux of the argument here. I just took a very basic look at the situation and thought that in an ideal world, if the rules of football were changed completely, would the kicker like to get a practice shot before the real thing? In my mind I know I would. I play a lot of pool. If you told me I could take a practice shot before having to sink the 9 ball from across the table I’d take that ever single time. I also play a lot of ultimate (frisbee). If you told me I could take a practice throw before actually having to make the pressure throw against a tough defense, I’d take you up on it. If I were playing basketball and needed to sink a foul shot to win the game I’d definitely want a practice shot first. If I were playing darts and need to hit 15 to win and could get a practice throw in, you bet I’d take it. Again, I can’t think of a single technical sport in which I wouldn’t want a practice shot. Golf? Yeah, I’d like a few mulligans, thanks very much. Baseball - I get to practice my throw home to cut down a runner before actually having to do do it? Sure, I’ll take that. During an at bat I get to a practice swing at a real pitch? No hesitation there. Hockey - I can take a practice slap shot from the top of the circle before doing it for real? Absolutely. Others seem to disagree.

muldoonthief There is no data that indicates whether a kicker would want a practice kick or not. There is lots of data to suggest the coaches think the benefit to the kicker is outweighed by other concerns, but no data that says what the kicker would prefer.

[Marley23]

@cmosdes

I wanted the situation to be where there was no doubt that it was time to kick the FG. It moves the discussion into whether it is better to give the kicker a practice kick or not, not whether the situation is right for a FG or not.

Right, you’re narrowing this to situations where the timeout is worthless. In situations where the timeout can actually be used for something, this would be a waste. If the timeout has no value anyway, I don’t see how the practice kick helps the offense. I can imagine it being bad for the offense because it allows the defense an extra chance to figure out the timing of the snap, introduces more random chance, and gives the kicker more time. I don’t care if the kicker thinks he would benefit from an extra kick. The question is whether he would actually do better, and I’m not seeing why that would actually happen. He knows the field conditions, he’s warmed up, he can see where the wind is blowing.

[cmosdes]

@Marley23

Right, you’re narrowing this to situations where the timeout is worthless. In situations where the timeout can actually be used for something, this would be a waste. If the timeout has no value anyway, I don’t see how the practice kick helps the offense. I can imagine it being bad for the offense because it allows the defense an extra chance to figure out the timing of the snap, introduces more random chance, and gives the kicker more time. I don’t care if the kicker thinks he would benefit from an extra kick. The question is whether he would actually do better, and I’m not seeing why that would actually happen. He knows the field conditions, he’s warmed up, he can see where the wind is blowing.

Part of your argument was that the timeout should be held as insurance against a bad snap. So clearly you feel the last timeout does have some value in the situation I’m describing, so it isn’t worthless.

We could discuss the relative difficulty of field goals of varying distances to determine whether the timeout is better used to try and gain a field advantage or not. We could also discuss whether the risk of a sack is worth the chance at a shorter field goal. At some point we’d agree on situations where there is one timeout left and it is time to attempt the field goal. It happens all the time. Now the question is how to use that timeout in those circumstances.

I am curious what you think of all the examples I gave of getting practice shots. Do you disagree that in all those situations the athlete wouldn’t want a practice shot?

[Little_Nemo]

I don’t see how a practice kick in those circumstances can benefit a team.

Suppose the kicker gets up there and practice kicks the ball through the posts. In that case, it would have been better if he had been making the kick for real. All he can do know is repeat the kick and hope he doesn’t miss it the second time.

Now suppose the kicker gets up there, takes a practice kick, and misses. Now what? Sure it didn’t count. But it’s not like he has an opportunity to change anything. He has to try the same kick again for real, knowing that his best attempt at making the kick just failed.

[Marley23]

@cmosdes

Part of your argument was that the timeout should be held as insurance against a bad snap. So clearly you feel the last timeout does have some value in the situation I’m describing, so it isn’t worthless.

I do. I thought you wanted to eliminate those circumstances by focusing on fourth-down kicks or situations where you won’t have time to kick again. If you’re not kicking on fourth down and you will have a few seconds left after a fumble recovery, the timeout is definitely worth saving.

I am curious what you think of all the examples I gave of getting practice shots. Do you disagree that in all those situations the athlete wouldn’t want a practice shot?

I’ve answered this already: I don’t care what the athlete wants because their perceptions often don’t match reality. I care about what gives the team the best chance of winning. Smart use of timeouts and good playcalling will help more than a practice kick. If the timeout can’t be used anyway, I still don’t see the use of a practice kick. A lot of the potential positives and negatives are unknowable - could the conditions change, will it help the defensive rushers time the offensive line, does it affect the chances of a penalty, is a botched snap more likely - and I don’t see any real reason to think it would help. If you don’t trust your kicker to make his kick the first time, you have a problem.

[Telemark]

@cmosdes

I am curious what you think of all the examples I gave of getting practice shots. Do you disagree that in all those situations the athlete wouldn’t want a practice shot?

I think that if you ask NFL kickers you’ll find that they wouldn’t want practice shots. They are ready, and slow, contemplative time works against them. Just enough time to set up and go would be ideal.

[cmosdes]

@Telemark

I think that if you ask NFL kickers you’ll find that they wouldn’t want practice shots. They are ready, and slow, contemplative time works against them. Just enough time to set up and go would be ideal.

Three posts in a row indicate a practice kick wouldn’t be worth much, so I guess it really was just a crazy thought. I still haven’t seen anyone address all the other sports I talked about and whether or not a practice shot in those circumstances would help or not. If so, I hoping there is at least some hope you can see my point that there is value in a practice shot, although for place kicking maybe it is different from all those other situations that it would be a hindrance instead of a help.

[It_s_Not_Rocket_Surgery]

@cmosdes

Three posts in a row indicate a practice kick wouldn’t be worth much, so I guess it really was just a crazy thought. I still haven’t seen anyone address all the other sports I talked about and whether or not a practice shot in those circumstances would help or not.

Well, in baseball and golf those practice swings don’t actually use a ball. So I wouldn’t compare them to a kicker trying a kick with the ball on the field. Kickers practice on the sidelines using a net, and I think that’s more akin to a golfer or baseball player swinging at nothing.

[Telemark]

@cmosdes

I still haven’t seen anyone address all the other sports I talked about and whether or not a practice shot in those circumstances would help or not.

I won’t speak to Ultimate, but in basketball I don’t see the value of a practice shot in a game winning freethrow situation. It’s not a timing shot, and all the dimensions are identical to every other foulshot ever taken, so it’s merely a matter of nerves. Unless a shooter was coming in the game completely cold (unlikely) I think it’s similar to an end of game field goal in football where thinking about the shot is likely to work against you.

These activities (kicking a field goal and taking a foul shot) should be mostly muscle memory. Shooting a billiards shot involves lots of variables where a practice shot gives you more information. If a kicker has to contend with swirling winds that can’t be predicted I suppose a practice kick might help in some way, but conditions are likely to change quickly in those situations so much that what happened 1 minute ago would be useless information.

[cmosdes]

@It_s_Not_Rocket_Surgery

Well, in baseball and golf those practice swings don’t actually use a ball. So I wouldn’t compare them to a kicker trying a kick with the ball on the field. Kickers practice on the sidelines using a net, and I think that’s more akin to a golfer or baseball player swinging at nothing.

I understand that, but I’m not talking about taking swings at imaginary balls. The real analogy is letting a golfer tee one up and take a swing and then letting tee up the real shot. If you told me I could take a real swing at a real ball before I had to hit the one that counts, I’d take you up on it.

[cmosdes]

@Telemark

I won’t speak to Ultimate, but in basketball I don’t see the value of a practice shot in a game winning freethrow situation. It’s not a timing shot, and all the dimensions are identical to every other foulshot ever taken, so it’s merely a matter of nerves. Unless a shooter was coming in the game completely cold (unlikely) I think it’s similar to an end of game field goal in football where thinking about the shot is likely to work against you.

These activities (kicking a field goal and taking a foul shot) should be mostly muscle memory. Shooting a billiards shot involves lots of variables where a practice shot gives you more information. If a kicker has to contend with swirling winds that can’t be predicted I suppose a practice kick might help in some way, but conditions are likely to change quickly in those situations so much that what happened 1 minute ago would be useless information.

The difference between a billiards shot (I’m not talking about a bar room table where it has all kinds of undulations, dead bumpers, crooked ques, etc.) and a basketball shot are eluding me. When shooting at the 9 ball there would be extremely few setups you could come up with that I haven’t seen and shot many, many times. All of these things involve activities that are mostly muscle memory and all have variables. I purposely did not include putting in golf in this because I realize that watching the break and speed could give you A LOT of information.

But having said that, I do defer to the general consensus here. It was an off the wall idea, without a doubt. Obviously I thought it had some merit, but there are complications to it and any benefits it does have could easily be outweighed by the risks.

[Telemark]

I don’t play billiards, so to me each shot would be an experiment in how ricochets and bumpers work. If to you they are exactly the same situation you see all the time then they are more similar in practice than in my imagination.

If you are in a stress situation, with everyone looking at you and ready to pounce if you muff the shot, would you feel comfortable taking a practice shot? The scenario of making the practice and missing the real shot would seem to add more pressure, exactly the thing you are trying to avoid. And if you miss the practice shot, how would your confidence be going into the real one?

[cmosdes]

@Telemark

I don’t play billiards, so to me each shot would be an experiment in how ricochets and bumpers work. If to you they are exactly the same situation you see all the time then they are more similar in practice than in my imagination.

If you are in a stress situation, with everyone looking at you and ready to pounce if you muff the shot, would you feel comfortable taking a practice shot? The scenario of making the practice and missing the real shot would seem to add more pressure, exactly the thing you are trying to avoid. And if you miss the practice shot, how would your confidence be going into the real one?

There is a reason that when they do these “make a basket from half-court” type of competitions the competitor doesn’t get a practice shot. If the practice were of no use, the organizers would be more than happy to allow people the chance to take a practice shot or two. But they don’t. That tells me that in these high pressure situations, the best way to make it hardest is to not allow a practice shot.

For an elite athlete it might be different. They have spent hours upon hours practicing and being an elite athlete means they probably have total control of their concentration. For me that would not be the case. I’d want the practice shot. Missing the practice shot would probably tell me what I might need to do differently. It would help. For an elite athlete, I have no idea. Kicking into a net for 10 minutes before having to do it for real would not, in any way, mimic what they would need to account for out on the field.

For the kicker attempting a long field goal, maybe they think they have plenty of power and are more worried about getting the ball high enough to avoid it being blocked. But with a practice kick they realize that the wind that wasn’t there 3 hours ago is now stronger than they thought (something you can’t tell from the sideline) and they need to change the angle slightly to get it there. It might even mean they realize they can’t get it there at all and the coach elects to attempt a desperation play instead. Check out this video. Don’t you think the kickers in that game would have loved to have a practice shot just before every real attempt?

[cmosdes]

@Telemark

I don’t play billiards, so to me each shot would be an experiment in how ricochets and bumpers work. If to you they are exactly the same situation you see all the time then they are more similar in practice than in my imagination.

If you are in a stress situation, with everyone looking at you and ready to pounce if you muff the shot, would you feel comfortable taking a practice shot? The scenario of making the practice and missing the real shot would seem to add more pressure, exactly the thing you are trying to avoid. And if you miss the practice shot, how would your confidence be going into the real one?

There is a reason that when they do these “make a basket from half-court” type of competitions the competitor doesn’t get a practice shot. If the practice were of no use, the organizers would be more than happy to allow people the chance to take a practice shot or two. But they don’t. That tells me that in these high pressure situations, the best way to make it hardest is to not allow a practice shot.

For an elite athlete it might be different. They have spent hours upon hours practicing and being an elite athlete means they probably have total control of their concentration. For me that would not be the case. I’d want the practice shot. Missing the practice shot would probably tell me what I might need to do differently. It would help. For an elite athlete, I have no idea.

For the kicker attempting a long field goal, maybe they think they have plenty of power and are more worried about getting the ball high enough to avoid it being blocked. But with a practice kick they realize that the wind that wasn’t there 3 hours ago is now stronger than they thought (something you can’t tell from the sideline) and they need to change the angle slightly to get it there. It might even mean they realize they can’t get it there at all and the coach elects to attempt a desperation play instead. Check out this video. Don’t you think the kickers in that game would have loved to have a practice shot just before every real attempt? Kicking into a net for 10 minutes before the real attempt would not in any way tell them what they need to account for once they are out on the field.

[Telemark]

@cmosdes

There is a reason that when they do these “make a basket from half-court” type of competitions the competitor doesn’t get a practice shot. If the practice were of no use, the organizers would be more than happy to allow people the chance to take a practice shot or two. But they don’t. That tells me that in these high pressure situations, the best way to make it hardest is to not allow a practice shot.

The important thing here is not that it’s a high pressure situation, but that it’s a shot that no one practices. Most folks have no idea how to throw a basketball that far with any accuracy, they don’t know how hard to throw or what approach to take. That’s very different from a set shot like a free throw.

For the kicker attempting a long field goal, maybe they think they have plenty of power and are more worried about getting the ball high enough to avoid it being blocked.

They’ve practiced enough to know what their range is, and how high they need to kick the ball.

Don’t you think the kickers in that game would have loved to have a practice shot just before every real attempt? Kicking into a net for 10 minutes before the real attempt would not in any way tell them what they need to account for once they are out on the field.

Neither would a practice kick, the wind was just too random and blustery to effectively practice. It was a crap shoot no matter what. The first field goal attempt that day gave them all the information they needed to know. There’s a reason there are flags on top of the goal posts.

Yes, you can come up a few oddball scenarios where a practice kick might help you. But you have to weigh that with added pressure, and the chance that someone on your team might get hurt on the extra play.