My vote goes to the Celts and the Cossacks.
Might I also make mention of the Apaches? I don’t know if they’re number one, but they’re certainly up there.
And DrDoom, Winkelried is about as Swiss a name as Washington or Revere is American. The namesake of my fellow moderator was one of the greatest heros of the Swiss war of independence, who “made way for Liberty” by gathering the enemy’s spears into his own body. Understandably, Arnold’s a bit biased in this matter.
Navy SEALs. Those guys are BAD ASSES, I saw this guy on the history channel telling a story about how they were on patrol or something, they ended up shooting at someone. The guy got shot in his hand and looks down at the bloody mess that was his hand. He thinks he sees the bullet sticking out of his hand still, so he decides to pull it out with his teeth. Turns out it wasn’t the bullet but a bone, it caused him a lot of pain, but he just kept on fighting. Maybe that’s just stupidity, but I think you have to be a total bad ass and adopt the bad asstic mentality to be a SEAL.
Fierceness is highly overrated. Professionalism, motivation and brains is what ultimately wins battles.
Which of course reminds me (coming as it does from Alessan) of the Israeli armed forces. Talk about motivation! They seem to have done OK against the Arab nations massed against them in the past. I don’t know if that qualifies as ‘fierce’, though.
Chronos … deepest apologies to Arnold … his posts are great! But something just struck me as terribly funny for some reason … “swiss mercenaries - fiercest warriors in history” … sorry
– DD
And what’s so funny about that, pray tell? :mad:
My esteemed and loyal friend Chronos has accurately described the great Winkelried. You can read a touching account of his story, guaranteed to bring tears to your eyes, here:
THE BATTLE OF SEMPACH
And swiss mercenaries were amongst the most prized soldiers in Europe from approx. 1515 (the defeat at Marignan that marked the beginning of the de facto policy of neutrality of the Helvetic confederation) to 1874 when the Swiss constitution forbade recruitment of Swiss by foreign powers (volunteering in a foreign army was made illegal in 1927), with the exception of course of the fearsome swiss guards of the Vatican who have struck terror in the hearts of many pizza-eating tourists in the capital of Catholicism since their inception in 1505.
[sub]It did depend on one indeed;
Behold him, – Arnold Winkelried!
There sounds not to the trump of fame
The echo of a nobler name.
(James Montgomery, The Patriot’s Password)[/sub]
Part of the effectiveness of the Swiss Army was their willingness to equip their soldiers with crossbows.
Many European nations outlawed them as their leaders saw the potential for assasination and did not trust their subjects.
Even when the musket was invented the crossbow had a higher rate of fire, was silent and more accurate.
They could take down the enemy hundreds of yards away with an accuracy that longbows could not match.
The prose in the above referenced article was great and you are right, I was definitely tearing up! I’m sure Khan would have too if he had had a chance to read it.
– DD
CasDave: a paraphrase lifted from Niel Gaimon’s and Terry Pratchet’s Good Omens: The Nice And Accurate Prophecies of Agnes Nutter, Witch:
As a As a southerner I would also add money, food, water, bullets, steel, … Basic supply lines are the most important part of any military operation.
Douglips,
Before you praise the Israeli forces, and denigrate the Arab forces you need to consider the above.
The Sacred Band of ancient Thebes is a pretty strong candidate for fiercest of all time.
… and technological superiority, and efficient lines of communication, and a clearly defined chain of command, and proper Intelligence\counter-Intelligence, and effective implementation of combined armed tactics, and initiative, and competant leadership…
For sure - all those and much more. But I believe the OP referred to the level of the individual soldier, not the military as a whole.
A group not mentioned yet are the Kalistas from the Philipines. As the story goes, these are the ones that gave the US Marines their nick-name “Leather-Necks” because of their habit of jumping out of the jungle and slicing the throats of their heavily-armed enemies (this was during the Sapnish-American war I guess). So the Marines made leather collars for protection. The Kalista warriors would shave their bodies, dress in white, wrap wire around their arms, legs and testicles to prevent death by blood loss, take some funky drug, and then raid the camps using swords made from flattened oil barrels.
Going further back in time they proved to be a menace to Spaniards who laughed at the natives wanting to fight with sticks…up until the point where the Spanish sword was bent or snapped in two by said iron-wood stick (great stuff, they use it for axles these days, doesn’t float and hurts like hell when accidentally dropped on one’s foot).
Going further back than that we come to the most famous victim of Kalista wrath: Magellan. He raped and pillaged a village or three while the village men were off hunting. One singular returning hunter swam out to the boat, climbed on board, fought his way through the crew, and killed Magellan.
Kali is now being taught at various martial arts schools, primarilly along side Eskrima(which is pretty much the same as Kali I gather, but from a different region), JKD and other non-traditional martial arts. My instructor has taught Navy SEALS, Secret Service, FBI, body guards and the local police department. Its a neat weapons-based martial art, I recommend it!
How much of the above is fact vs. myth I honestly have no clue…It sounds plausible though.
What’s so funny about Swiss mercenary soldiers? Easy.
George Bernard Shaw’s play Arms and the Man, that’s what.
Shaw used the character of the Swiss mercenary Bluntschli, who carried nothing but “chocolate creams” in his ammo bag, to skewer the cult of the military hero. It was a profoundly pacifist satire. Bluntschli came across as an eminently sane individual doing whatever he could to survive in the madness of warfare – by avoiding combat altogether and only pretending to be a soldier. By the end of the play, the prideful, preening macho soldier is disgraced and Bluntschli gets the girl, when he points out that he owns several hotels and holds the highest honor in the Swiss Republic – that of a “free citizen.” In the last line of the play, he is acclaimed:
“What a man!”
Damn you, Tomcat. Here I wade through this whole post, and you trump me two posts from the bottom. Well, I guess I’ll second your vote for the filipinos. I applaud you for noting the unduobtable mythological component of those stories, all of which I have heard often stated as fact. Also, as far as the effectiveness of the art, well, I think every fighter should train FMA to some extent.
Just curious, who do you train under and where?
USED to train…I live in Prague now where I do Thai boxing.
Long story in different places, but…Robert Moore in Seattle, Jon Baklund under Rick Faye (under Dan Inosanto) from Minnesota, and Alan ??? for a brief period in Denver. Great stuff! You train too?
I think this thread should have been over the first time someone brought up the Mongols. Discussion over folks.
I was recently in Seattle, and enjoyed the opportunity to train w/ Jesse Glover and Jim DeMile. I’ve got a good buddy in Milwaukee who is pretty tight with Rick Faye, and my instructor, Dion Riccardo, was up there for an Inosanto seminar just a couple of months ago. I’ve been neglecting my weapons work somewhat lately. Working more on my ground game and boxing/kickboxing. Gotta love that Thai boxing as well! Love them knees and elbows. Did you see Bart giving his mook jong a workout in yesterday’s Simpsons?
This actually occurred after the S-A War. In one of the least known annals of U.S. military history, the Army and Marines to put down a several year long insurrection by Filipinos, who had expected the U.S. seizure of the Philippines to result in independence for the islands, not simply a change in the colonial master. IIRC, the insurrection went on until 1902, and was only halted after the U.S. resorted to (sigh) concentration camps.
Sua