Wow. It’s just fucking hair.
Word. i don’t buy shampoo. I wash my hair with conditioner. Lather vigorously and it gets rid of the dirt and just enough oil.
And regardless of what else is going on, was anyother Arrested Development fan thinking, “Small price to pay for self-esteem” when lindsaybluth posted?
Seconded. If lindsaybluth actually knew anything about cosmetic chemistry, he/she would know that the linked explanation is basically crap. Yes, the individual bits are true, but the real explanation is buried in true “can’t see the forest for the trees” fashion – to wit, it’s not "they use ions to repair damaged hair, " it’s that they use a soluble, sticky, positively charged resin and a soluble, sticky, negatively charged resin (methacrylamidopropyl trimethylammonium vinylpyrrolidone copolymer and polyvinylmethyl ether maleic acid copolymer, respectively) to produce an insoluble and rather less sticky resin.
In short, they’re gluing the hair together.
This is not that different from using hairspray (polyvinylmethyl ether maleic acid copolymer is a styling resin sold as Gantrez) and conditioner (methacrylamidopropyl trimethylammonium vinylpyrrolidone copolymer is a conditioner ingredient sold as Gafquat HS), except the deposition is probably tidier.
I’m not saying that Amazon reviews are any substitution for any real peer reviewed studies, it’s just good crowd sourcing, like Makeup Alley and the like. IMO, on the whole products that do what they promise to do would be more prevalent if more people did this.
But I certainly agree with everything else you said. Unfortunately, repeatable trials and quantifiable results would cost money. As much as it would be super cool to have something you absolutely know will work on your hair before you buy it, that R&D is gonna be a pretty penny. I do hold out hope that we could see real studies in the future (distant, distant future…probablywhen the economy’s not in the toilet). That would be seriously cool.
OH GOD YOU CAUGHT ME! I know nothing of cosmetic chemistry, exactly like the other 99.99999999% of other consumers. This is a travesty. DOWN WITH THIS SORT OF THING!
Anyways, glueing the hair together is a very good synposis of what’s going on with the ProMend conditioner, so I included that in what I quoted as well.
I laugh at my dad – he still uses shampoo – even though he’s pretty much bald. Deluded thinking? (He’s got some sparse hair left, not much. About the same amount that most people have on their arms. Heh)
My grandfather used to use Ivory soap on HIS hair and it was a gloppy mess.
Well, see I DO use my curling iron. Diosa, I used to use conditioner, and it made my hair a mess. And even washing my hair every other day – I’ve done that. Trust me, you don’t want to see it! I stopped using conditioner, because it was totally weighing my hair down. It doesn’t dry out very easily, at all. Weird, I know.
No, my shampoo is a volumizing, daily-clarifying type. (I also switch shampoos every so often. I don’t care if it’s a placebo, or an urban legend, I’ve found it works. ;))
But I’ll ask my stylist about mousse vs. gel. It doesn’t really matter to me. I do use my curling iron a bit, although I’ve found since I’ve let it grow longer, I can get by with letting it go without curling it. (MY routine is to curl it with the iron, then set it on sponge rollers for about an hour.)
Speaking of, I should make an appointment to get my ends trimmed.
Are you kidding me? Let’s be real here: in every single Dope thread about hair or makeup or beauty or [insert traditionally feminine hobby or interest], there will be multiple people who pop up and try to shit all over the thread. While it’s sometimes more overt (“Ugh. Makeup. SERIOUSLY? THIS is all you guys have time to talk about?!” or “Guys, it’s JUST HAIR!”), it’s often subtle things like saying that there’s no science behind this stuff. There have been shampoo/conditioner threads before where people come in and say it’s all lies, Suave shampoo and conditioner is as good as it gets and the rest is just branding. Now, do they have proof of these claims? Of course not and it’s frustrating, especially when you bring actual science into the discussion.The point is that there is this ever-present tone of dismissal.
Now, I want to be clear: I’m not saying that’s what MsWhatsit is doing here at all, I’m just explaining why those of us that regularly post in beauty threads may have our heckles up before anything actually happens.
She also linked to a blog run by chemists who explain the reality of claims made by a product vs what the stuff in it can actually do. I spend an hour or so reading through those posts last night. Very interesting stuff.
Getting this thread back on track, while there are no peer-reviewed journal studies of Kerastase vs V05 (I can’t imagine why) to share from Science, if you understand what various ingredients in cosmetics actually do, you can look at the formulations of different products and compare in order to make an informed decision.
As an example, I was thinking of getting the Kerastase Chronologiste treatment off of eBay but went to hunt down the ingredients first and found that for all the added money, it wasn’t going to give me any more bang for my buck than my regular protein treatment (Neutral Protein Filler added to PM Awapuhi Moisture Mist as a conditioning carrier). For that matter, if you do a little research, you’ll figure out why you may need a protein treatment, or if in fact you need one at all.
Sometimes the companies even make it easy on you. GVP, for instance, will straight up list the ingredients of the product they are duping right on the packaging.
In general, this type of research is best done off the boards on blogs and boards dedicated to discussing the subject matter at hand, because we can never ever ever have a thread on the Dope about makeup/purses/whathaveyou without a bunch of people threadshitting all over it. This is why I recommend the Hair Board at MakeupAlley-they have working cosmetologists using multiple different brands and they are more than happy to help. In fact, the vast majority of them are really honest and don’t recommend the premium brands they work with at their salons but generally focus on mid-range stuff you can pick up at Sally Beauty Supply (Sally Booty as I like to call it!).
Agreed, mostly, Diosa. MsWhatsit was not being eye-rollingly dismissive and I get her questioning the product’s claims, but in other threads, there definitely been sneering at any interest in hair care, cosmetics, fashion, etc. That means those of us who are interested in these topics (and :: gasp! :: aren’t automatically vapid morons because of it!) are used to most questions like that being aimed more at the poster (for being soooooo gullible) instead of a nearly-unregulated market that allows these companies to flat out lie with no consequence.
MsWhatsit, though, definitely sounds frustrated with the companies instead of the consumers. The blog post Lindsay linked to seems to be exactly what she was wanting to see, so it was unfair to get snippy at her. Actual truths about products in the beauty industry are hard enough to come by, though, and people who get actually hostile at people doubting a product’s claims (and I’m not including lindsay in this group, to be clear) are just as much of a problem as those who sneer at them.
[sub]Let’s be real, it’s awesome that this repair ACTUALLY WORKS, definitely, but even the post talks about the millions of products that claim to do the same thing… But don’t. IMBitterO, it’s not unreasonable to ask for proof if a beauty company claims the sky is blue. I sprained my eyes :rolleyes: when I saw a shampoo that breathlessly described the CASHMERE EXTRACT in it. Yes, they actually meant an extract of the animal fiber used for luxury goods. [/sub]
That is very interesting. I did not know that about the Aquage company, and will definitely keep that in mind in the future. I don’t know if I’ve been lucky about not getting counterfeit product, or if the benefit is all in my head (hurr). Guess I’ll stick with getting it at my salon from now on!
I’ve used the Pureology, but honestly, it didn’t seem to work as well as the Aquage.
HOLY CRAP BALLS about the price of that Christophe Robin stuff.
Look, I’m not picky. It doesn’t have to be Science. I’d take freaking Consumer Reports.
To clarify my perspective a little, I’m someone who very much enjoys getting spendy hair products when I have the disposable income to do so. I just always have this nagging feeling that maybe I’m paying an extra $10 just to pay an extra $10, if you follow. And hearing from other people, “Ooh, this product makes my hair silky smooth” doesn’t do much to reassure me that they didn’t also just pay an extra $10 and really want to justify their expenditure, and daily hair quality is pretty damn subjective, so it’s very difficult to definitively say, “Yes, this product uncontrovertibly makes my hair shinier/smoother/whatever than X product does.”
Finding out, as anu-la1979 suggests, what the specific ingredients are supposed to do, and which products have which specific ingredients, is certainly helpful, to an extent. But just because Company X says that Ingredient X has Effect X doesn’t mean it necessarily does. There’s more marketing than science in the beauty and cosmetic industry.
Anyway, I apologize if I came across thread-shitty. It wasn’t my intent.
Pureology’s famous moisturizing shampoo works uber-well for me, but to date I have not been impressed by anything from Kerastase and I found Pureology’s styling products to be hit or miss. However, I really love Aquage (and Biomega, their more affordable line) and it seems to work consistently well on my hair. I am jealous 
Ah yes, the Christophe Robin stuff makes my eyes bulge, as do the prices for Wen actually (PSA, Hair One at Sally Beauty Supply is supposed to be chemically identical).
Incidentally, I believe it was that Purdue released a study on the how and why of heat protectants (silicones reduce heat conductivity, reducing damage to the hair shaft) comparing against stuff like nothing, glycerin, homemade products etc.. Their conclusion was that silicones basically reduce heat damage to the hair shaft, which is why if you pick up any heat protectant on the market you’ll see certain ingredients repeating (amodethicone, cyclopentixolane, dimethiconol blahblah, and I probably misspelled them). But that’s generally how far those studies go.
Now, does that mean a $5 bottle of Tresemme should be as good as Ciment Thermique in reducing heat damage? Theoretically, both should protect against heat damage. But I’m not going to discount people saying that the formulation of Ciment Thermique produced better results overall for styling overall and then point fingers to then say all these people are deluding themselves because they paid more for one product over the other. Also, in the end I don’t really care (I’m a brand manager myself). I personally believe that a $3 bottle of Neutral Protein Filler has the same active ingredient (hydrolized animal protein/keratin/collagen) as Joico Revitaluxe, but I know it requires more work on my part. I also know how to use NPF to get a good result for my hair. That doesn’t change the fact that Joico consistently puts out great protein treatments and I don’t feel especially superior for buying a $3 product.
Incidentally, Suave has a line called Suave Professionals that has several claims on it, including “works as well as Kerastase” (and they list the specific comparable products). And if you read the print on the back they make it clear that it’s based on studies. My personal opinion is that a corporation as savvy as Unilever would not willingly throw themselves in the FTC’s path without having enough data to back that up.
Incidentally, you can always ring up the Bureau of Consumer Protection for what you might think of as being duplicitous claims on your $3, $15 or $30 shampoo. These are the people who go to work to do things like smack Klondike around, for christ’s sake.
Its a false economy to use cheap shampoo instead of something that color protects when you spend $100+ on the color.
I’ll add one - I seldom use expensive shampoos, but they have a different feel in my hair and smell different. They are LUXURIOUS, a treat. The difference between the $.99 Suave and the salon bottle for $30 is often not about the hair, but about the experience of washing it. Now, is it worth it?..well, I tend to buy cheap shampoo. But there is really no difference between going for a luxury experience in shampoo and buying a better car because it feels better when you drive it, or buying expensive chocolate instead of Hersheys.
All thanks to this thread, I bought a $15 conditioner last night. (Carol’s Daughter Black Vanilla Moisturizing Conditioner). My hair has been oddly dry and frizzy lately, even though nothing in my haircare routine has changed. In the shower, the conditioner felt noticeably different from the usual John Frieda and Garnier Fructis conditioners I switch between, and this morning my hair is actually smooth and soft again. Plus it smells delicious. I’d say it was a win, so thanks, thread! 
I’ve been um, using VO5, at least lately. It seems to be working pretty well. And my hair isn’t colored at the moment, so at least I don’t have to worry about THAT.
I’ll ask my stylist maybe to reccomend a good, not TOO expensive shampoo.
My hair is STRAIGHT. When I was in high school and college, I wore it long, parted in the middle, and smirked at girls who ironed their hair.
My scalp and skin have always been oily. Seriously, I produce more oil than the entire Arabian peninsula.
Oh, and I started getting grey hairs EARLY.
Through my working mom years when my kids were little, I had my hair cut short and permed in tight curls. Everything was still oily.
For a short while, my hair looked like I had expensive frosted highlights.
Then the grey advanced…and advanced…and advanced.
My perms had to be timed to my coloring schedule.
And the scalp and face were still oily.
Finally, at fifty, I said ENOUGH. I had my hair cut to remove all the color, all the perm. Probably to an inch and a half long. I told the hairdresser, “It WILL spike. I want it to.”
Scalp and face STILL oily.
I wash my hair with dish soap. I like DAWN, because it has grease cutting action.
My hair is ridiculously soft, very healthy, and yes, Dear, it’s STILL oily.
My face is oily too. I still get zits. I get so angry, I want to show my driver’s license to my face and say, “Do you KNOW how old I am???”
I’ve gotten my hair cut at a cosmetology school. As soon as I tell my student stylist that I shampoo with dish soap, almost every single student in the classroom will come over to me and run his/her fingers through my hair. A few instructors, too.
I am an anomaly.
~VOW
I just bought a can of dry shampoo, so it’ll be an interesting experiment. I do occasionally use the baby powder method, but because I have dark hair (like DiosaBellissima), I have to take extra time to fluff out the “greying” effect that baby powder has. Dry shampoo is great for touch-up days when you have enough time to actually style the hair a little.
I think you were looking for something more along the lines of “men with curly and wavy hair can benefit from some pomade; American Crew makes a great formula that’s not overly sticky like some of the “classic” pomades on the market.” Ethnicity doesn’t always play into a person’s hair texture.
I am a fan of Queen Helene hot oil products, and for a while was a huge fan of this stuff. In the Fia hair typing system, I’m a 1c/2a, which means that my hair isn’t completely straight, but it’s not super wavy either; I’m definitely not graced with the beautiful curly or kinky hair that the Shea Moisture line is designed for, but it works well for me. I also have very fine strands and a ton of them. The scalp gets greasy fast, but my ends stay dry longer, so I find that conditioning treatments are a good thing for me, as is the occasional conditioner-wash method mentioned several posts above. However, I still have to wash my hair, so I tend to look for stuff that’s designed for no frizz or anti-breakage.