# Fifth anniversary of equal marriage in Canada **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [July 21, 2010, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fifth-anniversary-of-equal-marriage-in-canada/547483 "2010-07-21T16:54:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![SanVito](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sanvito/32/2805_2.png) [@SanVito](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SanVito)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2010, 9:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fifth-anniversary-of-equal-marriage-in-canada/547483/21 "2010-07-22T09:07:16Z")
> [@olivesmarch4th](#): > > I’m curious because my colleagues, who are all very liberal social worker types, generally do not feel gay marriage is the right cause to rally behind for LGBT equality in America. They see gay marriage as predominantly a white middle-class interest that ignores the sexual minorities who are in poverty, living on the streets, etc. Yeah, cos no one working class ever wanted to get married, right? Actually, I think the introduction of gay marriage greatly advances the LGBT cause, mainly because it makes gay people more visible and more normal - it shows that we’re not all hanging out in seedy nightclubs having sex in toilets. Although we only have Civil Partnerships in the UK, most people (inc. straights) call it gay marriage and plenty of straight people have now attended their friends’ and relatives’ civil partnerships and have a much more positive view. The only thing that drives me mad about the right wing papers here is their glee at reporting the first ‘gay divorces’, as ‘proof’ that gay people aren’t up to commitment. Because, you know, straight people never get divorced. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2010, 9:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fifth-anniversary-of-equal-marriage-in-canada/547483/22 "2010-07-22T09:46:22Z")
> [@SanVito](#): > > The only thing that drives me mad about the right wing papers here is their glee at reporting the first ‘gay divorces’, as ‘proof’ that gay people aren’t up to commitment. Because, you know, straight people never get divorced. Wait, wait, so the reason Henry VIII went through so many wives was that he was actually gay? That’s more creative than anything the best Black Legend inventors ever came up with! All these years I thought the dude couldn’t keep his pants on when in the presence of a pretty lass, and it turns out he was lusting for More. Those people go into the same bucket as the ones who claim that “only PiV is sex” but then apparently that same definition doesn’t apply to gay males (extra points for being the kind who decide that it _does_ apply to lesbians). ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2010, 12:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fifth-anniversary-of-equal-marriage-in-canada/547483/23 "2010-07-22T12:05:14Z")
I’m an American. I like my beer cold, my steak rare, and my meteorites **FA-LA-MING**! ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2010, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fifth-anniversary-of-equal-marriage-in-canada/547483/24 "2010-07-22T17:19:06Z")
> [@SanVito](#): > > Yeah, cos no one working class ever wanted to get married, right? To be fair, I’m talking more about ‘‘homeless on the streets’’ than being working class. > [@](#): > > Our analysis of the available research suggests that between 20 percent and 40 percent of all homeless youth identify as lesbian, gay, bisexual or transgender (LGBT). Given that between 3 percent and 5 percent of the U.S. population identifies as lesbian, gay or bisexual, it is clear that LGBT youth experience homelessness at a disproportionate rate. From [here.](http://homeless.samhsa.gov/Resource/View.aspx?id=26488&search=lgbt+youth&orgSearchString=lgbt+youth&AspxAutoDetectCookieSupport=1) [QUOTE=SanVito] Actually, I think the introduction of gay marriage greatly advances the LGBT cause, mainly because it makes gay people more visible and more normal - it shows that we’re not all hanging out in seedy nightclubs having sex in toilets. Although we only have Civil Partnerships in the UK, most people (inc. straights) call it gay marriage and plenty of straight people have now attended their friends’ and relatives’ civil partnerships and have a much more positive view. [/QUOTE] I agree with you. My argument would be that while gay marriage has no direct impact on the gay male suicide rate, for example, the treatment of gay marriage as a civil right would ultimately impact the way people feel about sexual minorities in general, thus resulting in a more tolerant society. This is a bit of an ideological difference I have with my peers. But there are definitely people out there that feel their voice is being excluded - when we look at the national discourse in the U.S. on this issue, it really is about gay marriage. They don’t talk about the suicide rates or the ridiculous homelessness rates or the way racial minorities who are also sexual minorities are at an even greater disadvantage. They don’t talk about children being thrown out of their homes onto the streets. [QUOTE=RickJay] This strikes me as being akin to a black person in the 60s saying that voting rights weren’t a good cause to rally around because economic disadvantage was more important. Why not demand BOTH? [/QUOTE] I think it would be closer to a black person in the 50s saying that they are more worried about feeding their children than about racial desegregation – an argument a lot of people were putting out there that was largely ignored by mainstream white society because Martin Luther King, Jr. had this much more palatable message. From a historical perspective we tend to assume every black person thought desegregation was a laudable goal. That’s not the case. I don’t even think King was completely sold on it - he damn near resigned shortly before his assassination. We might argue that desegregation was ultimately a good thing that led to greater acceptance of blacks, but I’m not sure it did. I think it just made it harder to prove the disparities that still exist, since officially we now treat everyone equal, but in practice we still don’t. I’m not saying, obviously, that the civil rights movement was a negative thing, I’m just saying it maybe made it more difficult to address the far more pressing concerns like disproportionate poverty rates and health concerns because now people can say we ‘‘fixed’’ racism in this country. So I see their point. HOWEVER, I would question at all whether we can compare gay rights with the civil rights movement or make predictions about what would happen based on what happened with civil rights in the U.S. It’s inevitable at some point in any social movement that someone’s voice is going to be excluded or someone else is going to be marginalized. The question is whether putting gay marriage at the forefront of this issue in the U.S. is going to do the greatest good. It’s an issue I grapple with. In the end I still come down on the gay marriage side, but for totally selfish reasons. All the gay people in my life are middle class and want to get married. ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2010, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fifth-anniversary-of-equal-marriage-in-canada/547483/25 "2010-07-22T17:26:25Z")
Wanted to add – I didn’t really mean to hijack this thread or start a debate. I was more hoping for some reports about changes in attitude toward gays in general or improvement in those social issues mentioned such as homelessness and poverty. I was more just looking for evidence to support my own theory that this is a good thing. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2010, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fifth-anniversary-of-equal-marriage-in-canada/547483/26 "2010-07-22T17:31:48Z")
I was thinking more about the claim that Prime Minister Harper did his best to prevent gay marriage in Canada, and I think that statement is erroneous. What he did was play politics to make it appear to his constituents in Armpit, Alberta that he was doing his best to prevent gay marriage, while not actually really doing anything to revoke what the previous government had put in place (he had other options to revoke it that he chose not to use, like calling for a vote of non-confidence over the issue, which the opposition parties weren’t likely to push right after an election). As a politician yourself, **matt** , I’m a little surprised that you don’t appreciate the subtleties of that. ETA: Forgot my disclaimer that this is my understanding, and feel free to correct me if I’ve got things wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Spoons](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spoons/32/3141_2.png) [@Spoons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoons)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2010, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fifth-anniversary-of-equal-marriage-in-canada/547483/27 "2010-07-22T18:15:02Z")
> [@Cat\_Whisperer](#): > > I was thinking more about the claim that Prime Minister Harper did his best to prevent gay marriage in Canada, and I think that statement is erroneous. What he did was play politics to make it appear to his constituents in Armpit, Alberta that he was doing his best to prevent gay marriage, while not actually really doing anything to revoke what the previous government had put in place (he had other options to revoke it that he chose not to use, like calling for a vote of non-confidence over the issue, which the opposition parties weren’t likely to push right after an election). That was my understanding too–Harper had to mollify the fine, upstandin’, church-goin’, vocal folks in Armpit, Alberta (though, in reality, he is the MP for an upper-middle-class neighbourhood in Calgary), so he made the right noises to keep them quiet and happy. And in the end, Parliament voted on a question that was somewhat similar to the first Quebec referendum: will Parliament give the government a mandate to reopen the gay marriage debate and possibly change the legislation? In other words, let’s have a vote to see if we should have a vote. No, said Parliament, let’s just leave this one alone; at which point, Harper didn’t bother going any further. I’m sure he could have pushed the issue a lot more both before and after if he wanted to, but he didn’t. In short, he made some efforts, but I’m unwilling to concede that they were “best” efforts. Maybe more like half-hearted ones. Perhaps as a result of the passage of the legislation allowing equal marriage, here in Alberta’s Bible Belt, LGBT folks are becoming more and more accepted, married or not. At least one of our city aldermen is openly gay. And there are a few married gay couples in town who are not afraid to admit it. We’re a ways away from having an annual Pride Parade, but we’re not that far from that point–as I recall, this year, we had some sort of Pride Day celebration on the plaza in front of City Hall, so we’re getting there. Judgment Day hasn’t arrived, the sky isn’t falling, and neither are meteorites, flaming or otherwise. Life goes on. ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2010, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fifth-anniversary-of-equal-marriage-in-canada/547483/28 "2010-07-22T18:35:36Z")
> [@Cat\_Whisperer](#): > > I was thinking more about the claim that Prime Minister Harper did his best to prevent gay marriage in Canada, and I think that statement is erroneous. What he did was play politics to make it appear to his constituents in Armpit, Alberta that he was doing his best to prevent gay marriage, while not actually really doing anything to revoke what the previous government had put in place (he had other options to revoke it that he chose not to use, like calling for a vote of non-confidence over the issue, which the opposition parties weren’t likely to push right after an election). As a politician yourself, **matt** , I’m a little surprised that you don’t appreciate the subtleties of that. > > ETA: Forgot my disclaimer that this is my understanding, and feel free to correct me if I’ve got things wrong. What **matt** is asserting is that Harper tried to prevent the Martin Liberals from passing C-38 to begin with. And there I believe he was correct. The Tories tried to defeat the Liberal government on a confidence motion before C-38 could be brought to a final vote, but were stymied by some tricksy behavior from Martin and Duceppe. You can read about it as it happened in [this thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=321627&highlight=c-38) starting about post 31. **RickJay** is absolutely correct that Harper set up the “should we reopen the debate” vote to fail, but not that he didn’t try his best to prevent the gay marriage bill in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b38774/32.png) [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Attack_from_the_3rd_dimension)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2010, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fifth-anniversary-of-equal-marriage-in-canada/547483/29 "2010-07-22T18:54:15Z")
> [@In\_Winnipeg](#): > > On the other hand, it’s been fourteen years since the Ontario Court of Appeal ruled that it was okay for women to be topless in public in the province. In the rest of the country, there exists the notion that women can be topless in public because of the equality doctrines of the Charter of Rights and Freedoms. Curiously, in a very Canadian moment, I was thinking about this very issue yesterday. The woman behind the counter gave me a funny look at Tim Horton’s and when I went out to my car I realized that my shirt was on inside out. I put the coffee on the roof of the car and whipped off my shirt and put it on again - total nipple air time less than a second - and thought, ‘Hm, if I were female, I probably wouldn’t do that - but would it be legal? - and more to the point, I’d be pissed about the fact that I couldn’t do that.’ So it is legal for female people to be nekkid up above? ---
**Author:** ![Sunspace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunspace/32/1250_2.png) [@Sunspace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunspace)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2010, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fifth-anniversary-of-equal-marriage-in-canada/547483/30 "2010-07-22T19:10:17Z")
> [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](#): > > Curiously, in a very Canadian moment, I was thinking about this very issue yesterday. The woman behind the counter gave me a funny look at Tim Horton’s and when I went out to my car I realized that my shirt was on inside out. I put the coffee on the roof of the car and whipped off my shirt and put it on again - total nipple air time less than a second - and thought, ‘Hm, if I were female, I probably wouldn’t do that - but would it be legal? - and more to the point, I’d be pissed about the fact that I couldn’t do that.’ > > So it is legal for female people to be nekkid up above? In Ontario it is. ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2010, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fifth-anniversary-of-equal-marriage-in-canada/547483/31 "2010-07-22T19:42:35Z")
> [@Gorsnak](#): > > What **matt** is asserting is that Harper tried to prevent the Martin Liberals from passing C-38 to begin with. And there I believe he was correct. The Tories tried to defeat the Liberal government on a confidence motion before C-38 could be brought to a final vote, but were stymied by some tricksy behavior from Martin and Duceppe. You can read about it as it happened in [this thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=321627&highlight=c-38) starting about post 31. Besides the fact that he continually and shrilly inveighed against it from Day 1 and pulled out all the stops to see Bill C-38 defeated, with such [statements in Parliament](http://www2.parl.gc.ca/HousePublications/Publication.aspx?DocId=1640291&Language=E&Mode=1&Parl=38&Ses=1#Int-1132853) as: > [@](#): > > ``` > It will come as no surprise to anybody to know that I support the traditional definition of marriage as a union of one man and one woman to the exclusion of all others, as expressed in our traditional common law. ... > > ``` > > As I say, I have made it clear that I and most of the members on this side of the House will vote against the bill as it now stands. We will vote to uphold the traditional definition of marriage. … > > The Prime Minister cannot through grand rhetoric turn his political decision to change the definition of marriage into a basic human right because it is not. It is simply a political judgment. It is a valid political option if one wants to argue for it; it is a mistaken one in my view, but it is only a political judgment. Same sex marriage is not a human right. … > > The Liberals may blather about protecting cultural minorities, but the fact is that undermining the traditional definition of marriage is an assault on multiculturalism and the practices in those communities. … > > There are fundamental questions here. Will this society be one which respects the longstanding basic social institution of marriage or will it be one that believes even our most basic structures can be reinvented overnight for the sake of political correctness? Will this society be one which respects and honours the religious and cultural minorities or one which gradually whittles away their freedoms and their ability to practise their beliefs? Will this be a country in which Parliament will rule on behalf of the people or one where a self-selected group of lawyers or experts will define the parameters of right and wrong? All of these questions are in our hands to answer. It is up to all of our consciences. I really can’t believe that my statement to this effect caused any controversy. He literally did it in front of God and everyone. Are our memories so short and is the sweater-vest so all-enveloping that we’ve really forgotten that he was the chief political voice for the movement against same-sex marriage when it was debated before Parliament? ---
**Author:** ![Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b38774/32.png) [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Attack_from_the_3rd_dimension)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2010, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fifth-anniversary-of-equal-marriage-in-canada/547483/32 "2010-07-22T19:43:00Z")
> [@Sunspace](#): > > In Ontario it is. ‘Course I’m in th’ east now, it would probably just start a riot. ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2010, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fifth-anniversary-of-equal-marriage-in-canada/547483/33 "2010-07-22T19:51:31Z")
> [@Sunspace](#): > > In Ontario it is. I always remember a political cartoon from when the ruling came down, which was in mid-November if I remember correctly. It showed a parka-clad man and woman digging their car out from a blizzard, and the woman is saying, “Yes, but the point is that I _could_ go topless if I wanted to.” ---
**Author:** ![Leaffan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leaffan/32/299_2.png) [@Leaffan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaffan)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2010, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fifth-anniversary-of-equal-marriage-in-canada/547483/34 "2010-07-22T20:03:12Z")
Yeah, technically it’s not illegal. But as you may have surmised, there ain’t a lot of naked boobage to be found out in public. Unfortunately. ---
**Author:** ![LavenderBlue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e95f7d/32.png) [@LavenderBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LavenderBlue)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2010, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fifth-anniversary-of-equal-marriage-in-canada/547483/35 "2010-07-22T20:08:56Z")
Yet another thing to like about Canada. ---
**Author:** ![Markxxx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5daacb/32.png) [@Markxxx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Markxxx)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2010, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fifth-anniversary-of-equal-marriage-in-canada/547483/36 "2010-07-22T20:14:44Z")
What’s the divorce rate among gays in Canada? ---
**Author:** ![Ibanez](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/a4c791/32.png) [@Ibanez](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibanez)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2010, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fifth-anniversary-of-equal-marriage-in-canada/547483/37 "2010-07-22T21:45:49Z")
I stand corrected after reading some posts. Note to self read posts before posting. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2010, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fifth-anniversary-of-equal-marriage-in-canada/547483/38 "2010-07-22T23:00:01Z")
> [@Gorsnak](#): > > What **matt** is asserting is that Harper tried to prevent the Martin Liberals from passing C-38 to begin with. And there I believe he was correct. The Tories tried to defeat the Liberal government on a confidence motion before C-38 could be brought to a final vote, but were stymied by some tricksy behavior from Martin and Duceppe. You can read about it as it happened in [this thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=321627&highlight=c-38) starting about post 31. > > **RickJay** is absolutely correct that Harper set up the “should we reopen the debate” vote to fail, but not that he didn’t try his best to prevent the gay marriage bill in the first place. Ah, I see - neither my memory nor my research went back far enough. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![alice\_in\_wonderland](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alice_in_wonderland/32/176_2.png) [@alice\_in\_wonderland](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alice_in_wonderland)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2010, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fifth-anniversary-of-equal-marriage-in-canada/547483/39 "2010-07-23T01:12:26Z")
> [@Spoons](#): > > We’re a ways away from having an annual Pride Parade, but we’re not that far from that point– You be wrong, friend!! 🙂 [http://www.pridecalgary.ca/Parade.aspx](http://www.pridecalgary.ca/Parade.aspx) - September 5th is the big day. There was also a parade in 09 and 08 and the Mayor actually attended, which makes me hate him a little bit less (although I still think he’s a douche). Regarding the most obnoxious Canadian politician regarding the issue, my vote goes to The King of All Douche Bags, Ralph Klien. From his Wikipedia page: > [@](#): > > n June 2003, an Ontario Superior Court Charter ruling removed federal restrictions on same-sex unions being recognized legally as marriage. This being very unpopular in Alberta, Klein repeated a promise to use the Notwithstanding Clause in the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms to veto any requirement that the province register same-sex marriages. Contrary to many media reports which annoyed Klein, this was a position of the Alberta legislature itself, passed five years earlier, and not a new position of his own. In December 2004, Klein called for a national referendum on the issue of same-sex marriage. This plan was quickly rejected by the government of Paul Martin and by federal Conservative Party leader Stephen Harper. > Following the federal Parliament’s approval of same-sex marriage in 2005 via Bill C-38, Klein announced initially that his government would fight the distribution of same-sex marriage licences. However, he later recanted, stating publicly that there was no legal route to oppose the federal act (neither via the notwithstanding clause nor the province’s power over civil marriage), and the government reluctantly acknowledged the marriages. Every statement the man made on the subject was revolting. (Full link here:[Ralph Klein - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ralph_Klein)) ---
**Author:** ![Spoons](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spoons/32/3141_2.png) [@Spoons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoons)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2010, 5:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fifth-anniversary-of-equal-marriage-in-canada/547483/40 "2010-07-23T05:22:14Z")
> [@alice\_in\_wonderland](#): > > You be wrong, friend!! 🙂 I’m talking about Lethbridge. We haven’t quite caught up to Calgary yet. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fifth-anniversary-of-equal-marriage-in-canada/547483.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fifth-anniversary-of-equal-marriage-in-canada/547483.md?page=3)