# Fifty Centuries of Human History... **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 15, 2003, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fifty-centuries-of-human-history/168771 "2003-04-15T00:43:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2003, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fifty-centuries-of-human-history/168771/41 "2003-04-15T04:56:31Z")
Because achaeologists don’t go in all willy-nilly and start dragging stuff up at random? Because they’re extremely careful and considerate of protecting their finds? ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2003, 4:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fifty-centuries-of-human-history/168771/42 "2003-04-15T04:58:47Z")
Oh, don’t worry about butchering names. I am a HORRENDOUS speller. (I’m sure I misspelled something right there!) 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Darwins\_Finch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darwins_finch/32/20304_2.png) [@Darwins\_Finch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darwins_Finch)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2003, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fifty-centuries-of-human-history/168771/43 "2003-04-15T05:09:21Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Guinastasia \* > \*\*Because achaeologists don’t go in all willy-nilly and start dragging stuff up at random? > > Because they’re extremely careful and considerate of protecting their finds? \*\* That archaeologists are more careful with their “finds” does not change the fact that often the local people have more claim to the artifacts than do outsiders. See [this article on ethics and archaeology](http://www.gi.alaska.edu/ScienceForum/ASF10/1007.html): > [@](#): > > Nearly everyone on both sides of the matter decries the looting itself as a bad thing, as archaeologists have done since their field became a recognized science. Yet even that formerly solid ethical point has turned slippery. The present residents of Sipan are the descendants of the people who made the artifacts. What outsiders see as grave robbing and looting they see as mining the past—their own past. If some U.S. citizen fallen on hard times had to sell great-grandmother’s necklace, no one would complain; yet the residents of Sipan got scorn at best, death at worst, for trying to sell ever-so-great grandfather’s gold baubles. If anyone’s looting, they say, it’s the archaeologists. In the name of knowledge, which doesn’t put food on the table, these strangers come in and carry away the people’s heritage and their ancestral wealth. This argument too is strong enough to produce sympathy if not full agreement among some professionals. ---
**Author:** ![BlackKnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/eb8c5e/32.png) [@BlackKnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlackKnight)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2003, 5:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fifty-centuries-of-human-history/168771/44 "2003-04-15T05:16:31Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Lissa \* > \*\*Forgive me, artifacts do not further civilization, but your family members somehow do? > \*\* Holy shit Lissa, I can’t believe you said that. His family members are part of civilization. The artifacts are merely records of civilization. I certainly don’t like the fact that artifacts are being destroyed, but let’s keep some perspective here. YES his family members, and all of our family members, and all of us, further civilization. We ARE civilization, for pete’s sake! Are you truly prepared to sell out part of the present civilization for a part of the record of a past one? ---
**Author:** ![Ferrous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Ferrous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ferrous)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2003, 5:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fifty-centuries-of-human-history/168771/45 "2003-04-15T05:32:36Z")
**Tuckerfan** , very good points. Although I’m not sure that Americans shooting a few more Iraqis to defend the museum would make the Arab reaction much worse. It’s pretty damn bad already. Anyway, I’d guess that the mere presence of armed guards would have deterred the looters, so shooting may not have been necessary. But that’s not the point I want to make. I wish to adress the “blame the looters, not the troops” philosophy. It’s true that the people who are doing the looting are the ones responsible. But it’s the American forces who created the conditions that allowed the looting to take place. They (we) have to bear partial responsibilty. And it’s not just Iraqis who would do that, of course. How long do you think the treasures in the Smithsonian would last if there was absolutely no security? Most people wouldn’t purposely harm or steal them, but some would. In my opinion, if we go into a place and completely dismantle the apparatus of civil government, it’s our responsibility to assume the duties of the government we’ve displaced. There may be good reasons why it wasn’t done (just as the looters probably felt they had good reasons for what they did), but we still have to take some responsibility for this tragedy. We didn’t make adequate preparations for the preservation of Iraq’s historic treasures when we went in to Baghdad. IMO, we should have. ---
**Author:** ![keturah](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e95f7d/32.png) [@keturah](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/keturah)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2003, 5:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fifty-centuries-of-human-history/168771/46 "2003-04-15T05:35:26Z")
> [@](#): > > Forgive me, artifacts do not further civilization, but your family members somehow do? well, quite possibly. How do you think that these artifacts were created? They were created by people, and you nor I are able to judge just who they may come from. Tomorrows artifacts will be created from todays people. People you are willing to sacrifice. > [@](#): > > It makes a hell of a lot of difference. Since we have copies of the Constitution, why not just throw the original away? If the original was destroyed it would be sad, however I hardly think that the supreme court would redefine past rulings based on the fact that we no longer hold the original copy. Honestly, every day in this country laws are decided upon based on our constitution, yet I would be hard pressed to think that anyone is claiming that the decision must be based on seeing the original copy of the Constitution. > [@](#): > > Art, music, love, and laughter are not essential for human survival, either, but life would hardly be worth living without them. On this we can agree, and art music and love and laughter wonderful parts of our lives–When you choose a piece of art over a human you deprive that human from providing love and laughter, and possibly art and music. > [@](#): > > Many of these artifacts will be destroyed, despite what you think. Some of them are fragile, and without proper preservation and care can literally crumble into dust. If they are not returned within a generation, they could be thrown away or destroyed by their children who do not know the value of the artifact. Gold could be melted down, jewels pried away, and vases accidently knocked over and smashed. Just as many things have been destroyed over the course of time. As I said, I do not relish the thought of these things being damaged, but to place the blame entirely on the US military is a bit misguided. > [@](#): > > Forcibly protecting property from immediate danger and ceremonially killing a person is not the same thing. If someone breaks into my house and I shoot him, I don’t necessarily consider that the “death penalty.” Ask the dead guy what he thinks the penalty is. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2003, 5:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fifty-centuries-of-human-history/168771/47 "2003-04-15T05:48:39Z")
Oh, boo-FUCKING-hoo! The American army deserves not one microfraction of blame for this, and had they gone on a shooting spree and picked off looters, they’d be equally pilloried. The thugs who trashed and robbed the museum deserve 100% of the blame. And comparing this to the loss of the Library of Alexandria is _not_ apt. The Library was a repository of knowledge, to be used as a reference for scholars and as a continuing aid to their researches. It was primarily a _useful_ place where scrolls were _read_, not simply displayed in glass cases. In that sense losing the Library was comparable to losing, say, the World Trade Center. Items such as “stone carvings of bulls and kings and princesses; copper shoes and cuneiform tablets; tapestry fragments and ivory figurines of goddesses and women and Nubian porters; friezes of soldiers and ancient seals and tablets on geometry; and ceramic jars and urns and bowls” are precious and interesting, but when they were crafted, they were meant to look pretty to the people who commissioned them. The fact that they’re old does not in and of itself imbue them with some kind of heavy-duty irreplaceable significance, and their loss does not automatically revert us to the neolithic. We have pictures of most if not all of these items as well as the findings of the scholars who studied them. If the original copy of the U.S. Constitution went _poof_ tomorrow, it’s loss would be tragic, but it wouldn’t spell the end of the United States, because copies of that document are freely available. I’m more impressed by this passage from the cited article: > [@](#): > > the several acres of museum grounds were overrun by thousands of men, women and children, many of them armed with rifles, pistols, axes, knives and clubs, as well as pieces of metal torn from wrecked cars. The crowd was storming out of the complex carrying antiquities on hand carts, bicycles and in boxes. Looters stuffed their pockets with smaller items. So, what should the American military have done? Set up a perimeter with Claymores? Fire on civilians with M16s? Strafe the looters with Apaches? Maybe they should have just deployed a bunch of neutron bombs and preserved the precious city while getting rid of all those icky people. I can certainly appreciate the beauty of an old artifact, but if it gets stolen, I blame the thief. Civilization lost some _stuff_, not itself. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2003, 5:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fifty-centuries-of-human-history/168771/48 "2003-04-15T05:52:14Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Ferrous \* > It’s true that the people who are doing the looting are the ones responsible. But it’s the American forces who created the conditions that allowed the looting to take place. They (we) have to bear partial responsibilty. I think Saddam Hussein played a role in creating those conditions. So let’s say the blame breakdown consists of: Looters:80% Saddam:19.999% American Military:0.001% Nah, on reflection the Americans still get zero, in my book. ---
**Author:** ![Ferrous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Ferrous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ferrous)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2003, 5:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fifty-centuries-of-human-history/168771/49 "2003-04-15T05:59:53Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Bryan Ekers \* > \*\*I think Saddam Hussein played a role in creating those conditions. \*\* Right, because only people who live under dictatorships would ever resort to looting, thievery and vandalism. ---
**Author:** ![Earthling](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/90db22/32.png) [@Earthling](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Earthling)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2003, 6:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fifty-centuries-of-human-history/168771/50 "2003-04-15T06:03:01Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Bryan Ekers \* > **And comparing this to the loss of the Library of Alexandria is _not_ apt. The Library was a repository of knowledge, to be used as a reference for scholars and as a continuing aid to their researches. It was primarily a _useful_ place where scrolls were _read_, not simply displayed in glass cases.** Well, as it happens, the Iraqi [national library](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/2948021.stm) has also been destroyed. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2003, 6:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fifty-centuries-of-human-history/168771/51 "2003-04-15T06:05:22Z")
If we can post soldiers at the fucking \*Oil Ministry[/i} we could have posted some at the Goddamn fucking museum. It wouldn’t have been necessary to kill anybody. A few guys with guns would have scared the looters away. Believe me, they’re not out to pick any fights with the Marines. They might be lawless but they’re not fucking stupid. This administration _fucked up_. There was no excuse for not protecting that museum. Those artifacts were the heritage of all of us, not just Iraq. And quit with the fucking bullshit “blame the looters” excuse The vast majority of Iraqis were not in that museum. A few people fucked it up for everybody and it was easily preventable. We removed all sense of law from Iraq and then stood there with our fucking thumbs up our asses when chaos ensued. We had a legal and moral responsibility to maintain a new order after we removed the old one. The Smirk himself keeps saying that we have to protect Iraqi wealth, yet he failed to protect a building which housed untold wealth. His failure may have caused irreparable damage to potential tourism. Talking about the historical value of those artifacts seems to be utterly lost on some of the superficial cretins in this thread but let me try this bit of trivia: Did you know that beer was invented in Mesoptamia? Fucking _beer_. Those vandals could have been smashing the very first kegs. Show some fucking respect, you assholes. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2003, 6:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fifty-centuries-of-human-history/168771/52 "2003-04-15T06:06:45Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Ferrous \* > \*\*Right, because only people who live under dictatorships would ever resort to looting, thievery and vandalism. \*\* Careful, just because all collies are dogs and all terriers are dogs, doesn’t mean all collies are terriers. I have similar contempt for rioters and looters worldwide (under all forms of government) and put all (or at least almost all) the blame for their destruction squarely on them. Personally, I’d love to see rioters gunned down in huge numbers, but the U.S. military was specifically _avoiding_ inflicting civilian casualties, and it wouldbe pretty dumb to taint their victory by blowing away a bunch of thugs in order to protect some artifacts. I just object to your assessment that the U.S. _caused_ the riots, on the basis of it being one of the more dumb-assed ideas I’ve heard lately. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2003, 6:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fifty-centuries-of-human-history/168771/53 "2003-04-15T06:13:01Z")
The US created the conditions which led to the riots and then fell the fuck down in their responsibility to preserve Iraqi interests. I give GWB 95% of the blame for this because he could have easily stopped it and he just didn’t give a shit. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2003, 6:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fifty-centuries-of-human-history/168771/54 "2003-04-15T06:14:14Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Earthling \* > \*\*Well, as it happens, the Iraqi [national library](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/2948021.stm) has also been destroyed. \*\* Feh. Most of the good stuff had been stored on the web anyway. Just kidding. From the linked article: > [@](#): > > Mr Powell called the ravaged Baghdad museum “one of the great museums in the world” and said the US would take a leading role in restoring it. This actually shows more generosity from the Americans than I think is deserved by the Iraqis. ---
**Author:** ![Ferrous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Ferrous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ferrous)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2003, 6:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fifty-centuries-of-human-history/168771/55 "2003-04-15T06:19:46Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Bryan Ekers \* > \*\*I just object to your assessment that the U.S. _caused_ the riots, on the basis of it being one of the more dumb-assed ideas I’ve heard lately. \*\* Oh, that’s your objection? Then we’ve got no argument, because I didn’t fucking say that. What I said was that some people, be they Iraqis, Americans, or any other nationality, will behave like savages if there is no sanctioning body (police) to stop them. When we went into Baghdad and removed the civil authority that kept order in the streets, we had to expect that those people inclined to looting and stuff would have a field day. If we failed to take any measures to prevent that, we become partially responsible. Just like I’d be partially responsible if, say, I chloroformed all the guards at the Smithsonian Museum of Natural History and that big elephant in the lobby got stolen 'cause there was no one there to stop it. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2003, 6:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fifty-centuries-of-human-history/168771/56 "2003-04-15T06:21:40Z")
Why don’t the “Iraqis” deserve generosity? (as if that’s what Powell’s comments represent) ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2003, 6:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fifty-centuries-of-human-history/168771/57 "2003-04-15T06:26:34Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Diogenes the Cynic \* > \*\*The US created the conditions which led to the riots and then fell the fuck down in their responsibility to preserve Iraqi interests. I give GWB 95% of the blame for this because he could have easily stopped it and he just didn’t give a shit. \*\* Well, the U.S. military didn’t commit wholesale slaughter of civilians by indiscriminately bombing cities, nor did they go out of thier way to trash important bridges and similar infrastructure, and they’ve been bringing in food aid in sizable quantities, so only an in idiotic reality-deprived sense have Iraqi interests not been _extremely_ well-served. Hopefully, 99% of the Iraqi population can get back to a normal-ish life within a month or so, with the bonus of not being under the control of a harsh dictator that casually imprisons, tortures and kills people for perceived slights committed by their relatives. Are you _sure_ you’re a cynic? I’d have thought a real cynic would blame the rioters, calling them crass opportunists who just waited for the Americans to topple the government so they could grab some valuable items. And by “valuable”, I mean in the strictly monetary sense, and not becuase the looters though they were preserving human culture. You sound more like [points accusing finger] a _liberal!_ ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2003, 6:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fifty-centuries-of-human-history/168771/58 "2003-04-15T06:33:25Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Diogenes the Cynic \* > \*\*Why don’t the “Iraqis” deserve generosity? (as if that’s what Powell’s comments represent) \*\* I’d say it was pretty damn generous and diplomatic of Powell to state that the Iraqis have a valuable cultural history and express interest in helping restore it, especially when the damage was done by the Iraqis themselves. It’s a “hearts and minds” thing, to be sure, but it gets less press coverage than delivering food to hungry Iraqi children. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2003, 6:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fifty-centuries-of-human-history/168771/59 "2003-04-15T06:43:54Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Ferrous \* > When we went into Baghdad and removed the civil authority that kept order in the streets, we had to expect that those people inclined to looting and stuff would have a field day. If we failed to take any measures to prevent that, we become partially responsible. Well, as long as you keep throwing around the “we” stuff, I’d like to know how big a check you’ll be writing to the Iraqi Cultural Restoration Fund. In the larger sense, the coalition (becuase this was a joint effort, after all) helped the Iraqis immensely by tossing out Saddam. Some Iraqis immediately abused their newfound freedom. What would you have expected the military to do with the looters? Gun them down? I think mopping up pockets of Republican Guards has a wee bit more priority, and it would be shocking for some army officer to have to visits the familes of his men and tell them that their loved ones died not while protecting their buddies or taking a strategic spot, but while protecting a really old (but pretty) vase. ---
**Author:** ![Ferrous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Ferrous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ferrous)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2003, 6:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fifty-centuries-of-human-history/168771/60 "2003-04-15T06:44:25Z")
Kind of tough to “restore” 5000 year old clay tablets that have been smashed to pieces and ground underfoot. Nice gesture, though. Meaningless, but nice. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fifty-centuries-of-human-history/168771.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fifty-centuries-of-human-history/168771.md?page=4)