# Fifty Centuries of Human History... **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 15, 2003, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fifty-centuries-of-human-history/168771 "2003-04-15T00:43:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Ferrous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Ferrous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ferrous)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2003, 6:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fifty-centuries-of-human-history/168771/61 "2003-04-15T06:52:44Z")
Sorry, that last was in response to your next-to-last post. As for the rest, did you miss the bit where I (and **DtC** , who I usually don’t agree with, but do this time) stated our opinion that a few armed Marines posted at the museum would likely have prevented anyone from trying to loot it in the first place? I seriously doubt that a ragged group of Iraqi citizens, who were too afraid to riot in the presence of Saddam’s police are going to do so in the presence of the guys who soundly kicked his ass and ran him out of his palace. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2003, 6:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fifty-centuries-of-human-history/168771/62 "2003-04-15T06:54:12Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Ferrous \* > \*\*Kind of tough to “restore” 5000 year old clay tablets that have been smashed to pieces and ground underfoot. Nice gesture, though. Meaningless, but nice. \*\* Yeah, you’re right. the Americans should hunt the looters down, drag them into a public square and slowly torture them to death before their families. If artifacts were destroyed beyond repair, that is surely the fault of the asshole who went to the museum to do the smashing. In the meantime, the Americans _can_ contribute considerable wealth and expertise to the matter of restoration. This whole “I blame you because you should have done something” stuff only plays if a specific responsibility was abandoned. The American military was tasked to remove Saddam with a minimum of civilian casualties. They did so. If some Iraqis are determined to fuck things up, that’s hardly the Americans’ fault. ---
**Author:** ![Ferrous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Ferrous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ferrous)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2003, 6:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fifty-centuries-of-human-history/168771/63 "2003-04-15T06:58:22Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Bryan Ekers \* > **Yeah, you’re right. the Americans should hunt the looters down, drag them into a public square and slowly torture them to death before their families.** Well, I’m glad we agree. No, wait…I suddenly recall I never said anything even resembling that ridiculous statement. Oh well. Cute strawman, though. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2003, 6:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fifty-centuries-of-human-history/168771/64 "2003-04-15T06:59:11Z")
Recognizing the value of the Baghdad Museum (and taking steps to protect it) is an act that can only come from someone who understands and appeciates the value of knowledge and history and culture. George W. Bush, on the other hand, is the C-average President. 'nuff said. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2003, 7:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fifty-centuries-of-human-history/168771/65 "2003-04-15T07:00:21Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Ferrous \* > \*\*Sorry, that last was in response to your next-to-last post. > > As for the rest, did you miss the bit where I (and **DtC** , who I usually don’t agree with, but do this time) stated our opinion that a few armed Marines posted at the museum would likely have prevented anyone from trying to loot it in the first place? I seriously doubt that a ragged group of Iraqi citizens, who were too afraid to riot in the presence of Saddam’s police are going to do so in the presence of the guys who soundly kicked his ass and ran him out of his palace. \*\* You don’t know that and I don’t know that and even the Marines posted to such a detail wouldn’t know that. By definition, a riot is uncontrolled and in earlier encounters with large angry civilian crowds, the Americans chose (wisely) to withdraw rather than risk ending up in a firefight in which civilians would get killed. So, how many looters would have to be shot before the rest withdrew? And if a child was hit (because there were children involved in the looting, according to the cited article) would that be okay, too? ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2003, 7:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fifty-centuries-of-human-history/168771/66 "2003-04-15T07:02:10Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Diogenes the Cynic \* > \*\*The US created the conditions which led to the riots and then fell the fuck down in their responsibility to preserve Iraqi interests. I give GWB 95% of the blame for this because he could have easily stopped it and he just didn’t give a shit. \*\* You are really starting to sound like **Brutus** ’s alter-ego. What exactly _don’t_ you blame GWB for? If a soldier shot a looter or a rioter, I think you’d be up in arms, blaming GWB for that and calling for his head. As would the rest of the freaking world. I oppose the war, but I certainly don’t want the troops plugging civilians for vandalism. Also, I think you are overestimating the amount of tourism dollars Iraq could expect (even with the museums intact) and seriously underestimating the oil dollars they can expect. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2003, 7:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fifty-centuries-of-human-history/168771/67 "2003-04-15T07:06:12Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Guinastasia_ > Education and culture are much much more valuable to civilization than oil, Eonwe. I see what you’re saying, but at the same time, what’s more important in the LONG run? We survived centuries without oil-eventually, we’ll find alternate sources of fuel. I’d say the oil is the mot important. For one thing, no ecosystem has ever been destroyed because someone set fire to a museum. More importantly, oil is a non-renewable, finite resource. There’s only so much we can pump out of the ground before we run out. Culture, on the other hand, is infinitly renewable. We can make more culture out of _anything_. We literally eat and breath it. The one thing the human race will never lack for is culture. You want more cuniform tablets? I know how to run a mill: I can run you off a stack of twenty in a few hours. They aren’t five thousand year old tablets, you say? They will be sooner or later. If there’s one thing the human race will never run out of, it’s culture. Lastly, let us not underestimate the cultural contributions of refined oil. For example, without oil, there’d be no monster truck rallies. And then where would civilization be? ---
**Author:** ![Ferrous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Ferrous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ferrous)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2003, 7:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fifty-centuries-of-human-history/168771/68 "2003-04-15T07:13:46Z")
Heh. Thanks for the perspective, **Miller**. 😉 **Bryan** , I’m rapidly losing interest in defending a position I didn’t choose. All I’m saying is that the US and coalition forces are not blameless in this. They’re certainly not the only ones responsible (not 95%—here the Cynical One and I differ), but they do bear some responsibility. Anyhoo, I’m going to bed now. I’ll check back tomorrow. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2003, 7:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fifty-centuries-of-human-history/168771/69 "2003-04-15T07:38:05Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Ferrous \* > \*\*Heh. Thanks for the perspective, **Miller**. 😉 > > **Bryan** , I’m rapidly losing interest in defending a position I didn’t choose. All I’m saying is that the US and coalition forces are not blameless in this. They’re certainly not the only ones responsible (not 95%—here the Cynical One and I differ), but they do bear some responsibility.\*\* Nah, I blame the rioters, at least until you or anyone else points out what kind of “protection” the Americans could have extended to the museum that wouldn’t have put themselves and determined Iraqi looters at risk. It’s ridiculously easy to say “you should have done something!” and somewhat less so to explain what could have been done and how the end result would have been better. So, how many human lives is a cuneform worth, these days? While admittedly it’s a strawman to say the Americans should seek violent retribution on the looters, it is _not_ a straw-man to ask how many dead Iraqis would have been acceptable in protecting these artifacts. And had the Americans gunned down even _one_ Iraqi while protecting a museum, surely a thread damning them would have been opened, explaining how evil that act was. Fuck the rioters, and fuck the OP for saying “fuck the Americans.” ---
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2003, 8:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fifty-centuries-of-human-history/168771/70 "2003-04-15T08:11:17Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by spooje \* > \*\*You are really starting to sound like **Brutus** ’s alter-ego… \*\* Me and **Diog** are throw-down-homies-for-life. **Diog’s** location? Roseville, MN. Location of my first apartment? Roseville, MI. **Diog’s** screen-name is that of some dead Greek fellah. Mine? A dead Roman fellah. Need I go on? ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2003, 9:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fifty-centuries-of-human-history/168771/71 "2003-04-15T09:16:08Z")
While I agree that this is a tragedy of Alexandrian Library proportions, I think people should really be more immediately concerned about why the US army isn’t guarding the [children’s hospital](http://www.globeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20030414.wxubaghn/BNStory/International/) where the poor fucking doctors are spending 50% of their time tending to patients (with no anaesthetics or antibiotics) and the other 50% of their time standing outside with rifles, shooting down mobs of looters who want to take the fucking life support systems away. ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2003, 9:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fifty-centuries-of-human-history/168771/72 "2003-04-15T09:39:49Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Blalron \* > Brutus, you are not only a sad example of the extreme right wing, you are a sad example of humanity. Couldn’t agree more. Let’s not forget when faced with a picture of a crushed Girl is Palestine the fuckwit came out with this [gem](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&postid=3147584#post3147584) > [@](#): > > Tragedy? The only tragedy here is that the Israelis will have to waste some water to clean off the treads of the 'dozer. Prick :mad: Anyhoo the US and UK forces have to legally protect people and property. It seems that they are starting to move on this but only after some of the horses have all ready bolted. Yet another indication that this was a rushed war that was designed by the Pentagon and without due thought for the consequences. ---
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2003, 9:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fifty-centuries-of-human-history/168771/73 "2003-04-15T09:43:30Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by yojimbo \* > \*\*Couldn’t agree more. Let’s not forget when faced with a picture of a crushed Girl is Palestine the fuckwit came out with this [gem](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&postid=3147584#post3147584) Prick :mad: > . \*\* I stand by that statement. When a stupid little idiot stands before a bulldozer, what should they expect to happen? Squish, that’s what they should expect. And in this case, got. ---
**Author:** ![TwistofFate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cdc98d/32.png) [@TwistofFate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TwistofFate)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2003, 9:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fifty-centuries-of-human-history/168771/74 "2003-04-15T09:51:09Z")
guys, don’t worry about 8,000 years of civilisation destroyed. we have a perfect example of pre-messopatamian knuckle dragging desplayed by Brutus. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2003, 9:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fifty-centuries-of-human-history/168771/75 "2003-04-15T09:56:55Z")
But what are the odds of him creating anything worth treasuring? ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2003, 9:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fifty-centuries-of-human-history/168771/76 "2003-04-15T09:58:54Z")
You sicken me you cunt. Sorry for the hijack. ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2003, 10:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fifty-centuries-of-human-history/168771/77 "2003-04-15T10:00:18Z")
Brutus that is not the wee Irishman or the hairy legged Scot 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2003, 10:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fifty-centuries-of-human-history/168771/78 "2003-04-15T10:03:00Z")
**Brutus** , kindly leave the stage. ---
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2003, 10:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fifty-centuries-of-human-history/168771/79 "2003-04-15T10:11:57Z")
People stealing national treasures = Shoot them! People intentionally standing in front of bulldozers = Precious little angels! Some of you people make zero sense. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2003, 10:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fifty-centuries-of-human-history/168771/80 "2003-04-15T10:24:39Z")
> [@](#): > > We removed all sense of law from Iraq and then stood there with our fucking thumbs up our asses when chaos ensued. With all due respect to my friend Diogenes, and with a profound understanding of the passion behind all the viewpoints expressed here, I have to say that there have indeed been people during this conflict who have stood there with their fucking thumbs up their asses but among them most definitely were not the soldiers who, in my opinion, are displaying amazing skill and bravery in their meticulous handling of their duty. When you find yourself as an armed agent in a foreign land where you do not speak the language, where people who love you are kissing your hand while people who hate your are strapping explosives under their armpits, where snipers are shooting at you from the rooftops of hotels, where children are asking you for candy, where old women are begging you to come with them to stop robbers from pillaging their homes, where doctors are asking whether you have any extra bandages, where news people are shoving microphones in your face and pointing cameras at you, where you have a wife or husband or children back home who fret over every moment of their own existence, where people are trying to find relatives whom Saddam’s Gestapo had kidnapped years before… when this is your circumstance, you do not deserve to be characterized as standing around with your fucking thumb up your ass. Oh, and Brutus: you are a moron. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fifty-centuries-of-human-history/168771.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fifty-centuries-of-human-history/168771.md?page=5)