# Fifty Centuries of Human History... **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 15, 2003, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fifty-centuries-of-human-history/168771 "2003-04-15T00:43:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![chm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/848f3c/32.png) [@chm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chm)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2003, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fifty-centuries-of-human-history/168771/101 "2003-04-15T17:06:01Z")
They discussed this on the radio here this morning, and some things that I remember hearing (details may vary, but you can listen yourself if you’d like): - The US government was advised by archaeologists and the like of the location of important sites. They requested this information so they would not bomb them, and in order to protect them later. - Some artifacts looted have already been sighted on the black market in Europe. There is suspicion that (some, most of?) the looting was organized theft, and trashing the museums afterwards was partly to destroy records. [http://www.cbc.ca/thecurrent/2003/200304/20030415.html](http://www.cbc.ca/thecurrent/2003/200304/20030415.html) there’s a link to listen to this part of the show. Personally, I think that the Coalition is not doing enough to keep the country from falling into chaos, but that’s another discussion with different cites to find later. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2003, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fifty-centuries-of-human-history/168771/102 "2003-04-15T17:13:49Z")
But it isn’t “falling into chaos”. And with respect to the museum, I find it curious that some rag-tag looters managed to get into the vault. There might be more to this than meets the eye. ---
**Author:** ![chm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/848f3c/32.png) [@chm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chm)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2003, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fifty-centuries-of-human-history/168771/103 "2003-04-15T17:35:10Z")
Libertarian, I will respectfully disagree about the chaos. One of the scholars interviewed also said he suspected that some of this looting was masterminded by black-market antiquities dealers. I don’t know much about the buildings housing the museums looted, but museums in general are more designed to protect artifacts from the environment than to keep people out. They have doors and windows like everywhere else. It doesn’t surprise me that somebody had enough determination, time, or luck to get in. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2003, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fifty-centuries-of-human-history/168771/104 "2003-04-15T17:51:32Z")
**Byran Ekers** , you’re an idiot. How much do you know about the field of achaeology, museums, history, etc? National Library destroyed??? I’m gonna be sick. I can’t even open those links. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2003, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fifty-centuries-of-human-history/168771/105 "2003-04-15T18:15:34Z")
For those also who say, “Who cares, Iraq deserves it,” um, historical and intellectual treasures belong to EVERYONE. We ALL suffer from it. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2003, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fifty-centuries-of-human-history/168771/106 "2003-04-15T20:01:43Z")
> [@](#): > > Libertarian, I will respectfully disagree about the chaos. Respectfully noted. However, I’ve seen at least as much “chaos” many times in my life, including 1968 in Detroit and 1989 in Charlotte. With respect to museums, hundreds of them have been destroyed in wars throughout the ages. Antiquities have been pillaged for centuries from Egypt and elsewhere. Librairies (include the Great Library in Alexandria) have been looted since the beginning of the written word. Order is returning to Baghdad — lights and water are being restored as we write — and life will go on. ---
**Author:** ![Catamount](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/catamount/32/2840_2.png) [@Catamount](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Catamount)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2003, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fifty-centuries-of-human-history/168771/107 "2003-04-15T20:24:46Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Libertarian \* > \*\* and 1989 in Charlotte. \*\* Slight hijack: what happened in Charlotte in '89? I was just a wee SpazKitten so I don’t remember. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2003, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fifty-centuries-of-human-history/168771/108 "2003-04-15T21:06:14Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by kingpengvin \* > For those who don’t believe this is no big loss. > > Imagine if the Declaration of independence was used as kindling to start a fire, or the Magna Carta or even the Mona Lisa. It’s just stuff. Light 'em up. You need to borrow a match? These are just scraps of paper. It’s the words written on them, the ideas they contain, which are the valuable part. The Constitution is just an archaic scrap of hemp paper. If it were burned to ashes tomorrow, I wouldn’t give a damn, because the ideas it represents, the laws it contains, are not relegated to the physical exsistence of the original document. As for the Mona Lisa, this would have to be the one piece of art human culture could most afford to lose. It’s been re-produced so many times since it was painted, that the original is entirely superfluous. You couldn’t remove the Mona Lisa from the global culture if you tried. > [@](#): > > Wold you be pissed if The face on the Lincoln Memorial was smashed? What if someone pilfered the crown jewels and destroyed the objects they were set in? We can always put a new head on the Lincoln memorial. It’s not like we wouldn’t know what he looks like; we’ve got lots of pennies lying around. As for the crown jewels, aside from the wealth inherent in the gold and gems that make them up, there’s not a piece in them that’s older than the 17th century, except for one badly made golden spoon. Cromwell melted the originals down when he overthrew the Monarchy. And yet somehow, England maintained without them. > [@](#): > > They are just stuff, old stuff, what does it matter? > Well they do matter, people put importance to objects because they represent a connection to their past that can not be easily replaced. It doesn’t matter. These are, after all, only things. Which is not to say they are worthless. It’s a damned shame that these things were destroyed. It would have been nice to keep them. But not a single one of them is worth a human life. And, as **Libertarian** has pointed out so eloquently, there’s a **FUCKING WAR** going on in Baghdad right now. Not one single person in this thread knows exactly what the American military brass is trying to cope with right now. And if they decided that protecting this museum was not worth the potential cost in human lives, both American and Iraqi, I’m willing to accept their judgement on that. I’m _far_ more concerned about hospitals being left open to looters than the museums, and it seems we can’t spare enough men to cover all of those, either. > [@](#): > > I’m disgusted that these things were destroyed but not surprised. Folks like Brutus et al show that some people don’t give a flying fuck about anything they personally don’t find any value in. (Reminds me of the Taliban’s destruction of the giant Buddahs) And I’m disgusted (_and_ surprised) by comments like **Lissa** ’s, where she cavalierly asserts that she has no problems with killing someone to protect these “treasures,” an attitude no less craven and debased than George Bush’s supposed lust for the Iraqi oil-wells. The most important job we have in Iraq right now is saving as many lives as possible, both in the current engagement and during the reconstruction of the country. Everything else, _everything_, is secondary to that. I don’t care how old it is. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2003, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fifty-centuries-of-human-history/168771/109 "2003-04-15T21:11:38Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by SpazCat \* > \*\*Slight hijack: what happened in Charlotte in '89? I was just a wee SpazKitten so I don’t remember. \*\* Hurricane Hugo. ---
**Author:** ![Lissa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/85f322/32.png) [@Lissa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lissa)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2003, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fifty-centuries-of-human-history/168771/110 "2003-04-15T21:26:24Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Miller \* > \*\* > And I’m disgusted (_and_ surprised) by comments like Lissa’s, where she cavalierly asserts that she has no problems with killing someone to protect these “treasures,” an attitude no less craven and debased than George Bush’s supposed lust for the Iraqi oil-wells. \*\* And I am equally disgusted by those who place no value on the artifacts of the past. It’s idiotic views such as these which have greatly contributed to the loss of our cultural heritage around the world. Thank God that there are people who understand the value of artifacts and attempt to protect them from people like this. It just shows a complete lack of understanding and respect for history that someone could compare lust for money and power with the desire to preserve our heritage. If it weren’t so sad, it would be comical. I suppose I could explain at length the importance of these objects, the difference between primary and secondary sources, and what you can actually learn from the object \* itself \* versus a facsimille. I could talk about the awe I see on children’s faces when I show them an object in my museum which existed before the birth of Christ. I could discuss how tangibility helps in learning to love history, but to what end? A person who has no respect for the relics of our past will not care or bother to understand. It’s like trying explain opera to a street thug. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2003, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fifty-centuries-of-human-history/168771/111 "2003-04-15T21:30:39Z")
> [@](#): > > I could talk about the awe I see on children’s faces when I show them an object in my museum which existed before the birth of Christ. Have you showed them a corpse riddled with holes from an AK-47? A picture just doesn’t do it justice. It’s like trying to explain the price of liberty to a modern liberal. ---
**Author:** ![Protesilaus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Protesilaus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Protesilaus)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2003, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fifty-centuries-of-human-history/168771/112 "2003-04-15T21:32:43Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Miller \* > \*\*As for the Mona Lisa, this would have to be the one piece of art human culture could most afford to lose. \*\* My vote’s for Dogs Playing Poker. ---
**Author:** ![Happyjoelucky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Happyjoelucky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happyjoelucky)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2003, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fifty-centuries-of-human-history/168771/113 "2003-04-15T21:50:29Z")
> [@](#): > > I could talk about the awe I see on children’s faces when I show them an object in my museum which existed before the birth of Christ. **Lissa** , I understand the point you are making, but I hope the person that was to take said children to the museum didn’t die protecting it. People need to be alive to enjoy these artifacts. No? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2003, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fifty-centuries-of-human-history/168771/114 "2003-04-15T22:02:54Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Lissa \* > And I am equally disgusted by those who place no value on the artifacts of the past. It’s idiotic views such as these which have greatly contributed to the loss of our cultural heritage around the world. Thank God that there are people who understand the value of artifacts and attempt to protect them from people like this. It’s not that I don’t value them, it’s just that I realize that there are more important things than these souveniers. Human lives, for example. Not that I’d expect you to understand, considering comments like, “Forgive me, artifacts do not further civilization, but your family members somehow do?” > [@](#): > > It just shows a complete lack of understanding and respect for history that someone could compare lust for money and power with the desire to preserve our heritage. If it weren’t so sad, it would be comical. What I see is that you value these things the way that other people value oil, or money, or gold. And you don’t care who has to die to protect the things _you_ value. The only difference is, you get to pretend righteousness when people question your values. > [@](#): > > I suppose I could explain at length the importance of these objects, the difference between primary and secondary sources, and what you can actually learn from the object \* itself \* versus a facsimille. I could talk about the awe I see on children’s faces when I show them an object in my museum which existed before the birth of Christ. I could discuss how tangibility helps in learning to love history, but to what end? A person who has no respect for the relics of our past will not care or bother to understand. It’s like trying explain opera to a street thug. “You don’t understand the educational value of these things! No, I’m not going to explain them to you! Why should I try and _teach_ you anything?” I never said these things were worthless, I said there were other things that were of more value. Namely, the lives of our soldiers, and even the lives of the very street thugs that were moving the relics out by the cartload. It’s wonderful that you have so much respect for human history. A little more respect for actual humans would be nice, though. ---
**Author:** ![Catamount](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/catamount/32/2840_2.png) [@Catamount](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Catamount)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2003, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fifty-centuries-of-human-history/168771/115 "2003-04-15T22:10:45Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Libertarian \* > \*\*Hurricane Hugo. \*\* Pssssst. I was in Hurricane Floyd. Hugo was just a mild thunderstorm. (Did get a week out of school for both, though!) ---
**Author:** ![Ferrous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Ferrous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ferrous)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2003, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fifty-centuries-of-human-history/168771/116 "2003-04-15T22:30:00Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Miller \* > \*\*It’s not that I don’t value them, it’s just that I realize that there are more important things than these souveniers. Human lives, for example. > > \ > > I never said these things were worthless, I said there were other things that were of more value. Namely, the lives of our soldiers, and even the lives of the very street thugs that were moving the relics out by the cartload. It’s wonderful that you have so much respect for human history. A little more respect for actual humans would be nice, though. \*\* Seems to me that by that logic, you think it’s never okay to use force to protect property. If you do, fine, that’s your opinion, but I disagree (and so does the law, for the most part). What if it were your house being burgled, and the only way you could stop people from stealing all your posessions was to use force. I’d do it. Maybe that makes me a bad person, but there it is. ---
**Author:** ![WillSantini](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/ed8c4c/32.png) [@WillSantini](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillSantini)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2003, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fifty-centuries-of-human-history/168771/117 "2003-04-15T22:30:06Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Lissa \* > \*\*Call me harsh, but it wouldn’t have bothered me to lose one life in order to protect those artifacts, even if it were my own. \*\* Yeah, tell that to the child who just lost his/her father “Well kid, too bad, no more daddy for you, but hey, here’s a coupon for free admission to the museum.” :mad: ---
**Author:** ![Ferrous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Ferrous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ferrous)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2003, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fifty-centuries-of-human-history/168771/118 "2003-04-15T22:32:31Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by WillSantini \* > \*\*Yeah, tell that to the child who just lost his/her father “Well kid, too bad, no more daddy for you, but hey, here’s a coupon for free admission to the museum.” :mad: \*\* Oh, bullshit. Having a child who would miss me doesn’t absolve me of responsibility for any crimes I might commit. ---
**Author:** ![Lissa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/85f322/32.png) [@Lissa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lissa)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2003, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fifty-centuries-of-human-history/168771/119 "2003-04-15T22:39:20Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Miller \* > \*\*It’s not that I don’t value them, it’s just that I realize that there are more important things than these souveniers. Human lives, for example. Not that I’d expect you to understand, considering comments like, “Forgive me, artifacts do not further civilization, but your family members somehow do?” \*\* Oh, I understand all right. You choice of words in the “souvineer” comment is very telling. > [@](#): > > \*\*What I see is that you value these things the way that other people value oil, or money, or gold. And you don’t care who has to die to protect the things _you_ value. The only difference is, you get to pretend righteousness when people question your values. \*\* Greed is not the same as respect for history. I gain no material value from preserving artifacts for the rest of humanity, other than my miniscule salary. > [@](#): > > \*\*“You don’t understand the educational value of these things! No, I’m not going to explain them to you! Why should I try and _teach_ you anything?” \*\* And? Are you asking me to explain? Would it change your mind, or just be a waste of bandwidth? > [@](#): > > \*\*I never said these things were worthless, I said there were other things that were of more value. Namely, the lives of our soldiers, and even the lives of the very street thugs that were moving the relics out by the cartload. It’s wonderful that you have so much respect for human history. A little more respect for actual humans would be nice, though. \*\* I do respect human life, but I can also step back and examine the matter from the broad perspective of human history. In the grand scheme of things, one human life is but a blip, whereas these artifacts had survived for thousands of years, and would have survived for thousands more had they not been abandoned to the destructors. > [@](#): > > \*\*Have you showed them a corpse riddled with holes from an AK-47? A picture just doesn’t do it justice. It’s like trying to explain the price of liberty to a modern liberal. \*\* Funny you should say that. Not too long ago, we had a debate over whether the media was doing Americans a disservice by not showing the carnage of war. I agreed that it was, saying that we should be forced to see the human cost of military action, rather than sterile footage of cool explosions and marines firing into the darkness. There is no practical way to accomplish what you suggested. I don’t work in a corpse musuem, and don’t have any handy. Nor is my musuem political in nature. I don’t lecture my tour groups on current actions-- I just discuss the results of those of the past. I understand the price of liberty, no matter what my politics. (And I don’t think Iraq was a threat to it.) ---
**Author:** ![G-Unit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/96bed5/32.png) [@G-Unit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/G-Unit)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2003, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fifty-centuries-of-human-history/168771/120 "2003-04-15T22:50:10Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Ferrous \* > \*\*Oh, bullshit. Having a child who would miss me doesn’t absolve me of responsibility for any crimes I might commit. \*\* So your kids growing up without a father doesn’t bother you. You are willing to put your children through that over some artifacts? Ferrous, Lissa, and everyone else crying about this damn museum, go enlist and do something about it. Until then you can all kiss my USMC ASS!!! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fifty-centuries-of-human-history/168771.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fifty-centuries-of-human-history/168771.md?page=7)