# Fight My Ignorance on the Israel-Palestine Debate **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 4, 2007, 6:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fight-my-ignorance-on-the-israel-palestine-debate/398682 "2007-04-04T06:48:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![FRDE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e68b1a/32.png) [@FRDE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FRDE)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2007, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fight-my-ignorance-on-the-israel-palestine-debate/398682/81 "2007-04-15T23:54:37Z")
[QUOTE=tomndebb] This might be an interesting topic, but I suspect that it would be better suited to a separate thread. [/QUOTE] I agree - but also disagree A thread like ‘What does the modern Israeli think’ would be fascinating - but Alessan might be happier expanding on his last post, rather than setting himself up for a barrage of questions. Can we wait and see ? ---
**Author:** ![Puzzler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/d07c76/32.png) [@Puzzler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Puzzler)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2007, 6:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fight-my-ignorance-on-the-israel-palestine-debate/398682/82 "2007-04-16T06:41:43Z")
[QUOTE=Alessan] I understand what you’re saying, but I don’t like the implications. Because… by claiming that the people attacking us now are cut from the same cloth as our past enemies, its as if we’re saying that we Jews are the same as we were in the past. And that’s not true. The way we used to live, the way we used to think back in Europe and elsewhere, that’s not going to happen again, at least not as far as we Israelis are concerned. We’ve changed the rules, the basic understandng of how the world works and where we stand in it. History isn’t repeating itself. [/QUOTE] I don’t understand your point. Anti-Semitism has very little (if at all) to do with Jewish thinking or behavior. It is the thinking of non-Jews. For example, there are places (e.g., in Poland) where no Jews have been living for decades or more, but anti-Semitist feelings are still rampant, and the Evil Jews sup[/sup] are being blamed for just about everything. The major difference I see is that _sometimes_ “PC-anti-Semitics” use Israel to cover their feeling. ---
**Author:** ![Puzzler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/d07c76/32.png) [@Puzzler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Puzzler)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2007, 6:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fight-my-ignorance-on-the-israel-palestine-debate/398682/83 "2007-04-16T06:42:44Z")
[QUOTE=FRDE] I agree - but also disagree A thread like ‘What does the modern Israeli think’ would be fascinating - but Alessan might be happier expanding on his last post, rather than setting himself up for a barrage of questions. Can we wait and see ? [/QUOTE] Wasn’t there ever an “ask the Israeli” thread? ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2007, 7:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fight-my-ignorance-on-the-israel-palestine-debate/398682/84 "2007-04-16T07:03:45Z")
[QUOTE=Puzzler] I don’t understand your point. Anti-Semitism has very little (if at all) to do with Jewish thinking or behavior. It is the thinking of non-Jews. For example, there are places (e.g., in Poland) where no Jews have been living for decades or more, but anti-Semitist feelings are still rampant, and the Evil Jews sup[/sup] are being blamed for just about everything. The major difference I see is that _sometimes_ “PC-anti-Semitics” use Israel to cover their feeling. [/QUOTE] Oh, I know that there are anti-semites out there. It’s just that as an Israeli, someone who’s never encountered old-style anti-semitism first hand, the whole concept is completely alien to my experience. Which is just the way I want it. Like it or not, obsessing about anti-semitism is a very _galuti_ way of thinking. It’s the sort of victim mentality we’re supposed to have left behind. We came to this country to build and be built, remember? The way I see it, if someone doesn’t like me, that’s their problem - and their loss. I’ll do everything to protect our lives and our land, but I won’t revive old boogeymen. I you should ponder that, especially today. Remember, the Shoah won’t happen again not because the world is different, but because \*we’re \* different. And part of being different is defining the world in different ways. P.S. It’s 10 AM. I find the interruption very apt. ---
**Author:** ![Noone\_Special](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/noone_special/32/2863_2.png) [@Noone\_Special](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Noone_Special)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2007, 7:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fight-my-ignorance-on-the-israel-palestine-debate/398682/85 "2007-04-16T07:04:30Z")
[QUOTE=Puzzler] Wasn’t there ever an “ask the Israeli” thread? [/QUOTE] Not that I know of. And **Alessan** would be, AFAIK, the only other potential culprit remaining 🙂 P.S., and apropos of pretty much nothing… Holocaust Remembrance Day siren kicked in just as I was composing the short sentence above. We Shall Remember. Never Again. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2007, 7:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fight-my-ignorance-on-the-israel-palestine-debate/398682/86 "2007-04-16T07:23:13Z")
[Ask the Israeli Guy](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=318337&highlight=israeli). You feel like reviving it, be my guest. ---
**Author:** ![Noone\_Special](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/noone_special/32/2863_2.png) [@Noone\_Special](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Noone_Special)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2007, 7:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fight-my-ignorance-on-the-israel-palestine-debate/398682/87 "2007-04-16T07:30:23Z")
[QUOTE=Alessan] [Ask the Israeli Guy](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=318337&highlight=israeli). [/QUOTE] And I participated in it, too… Must be early-onset Alzheimer! :eek: ---
**Author:** ![Puzzler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/d07c76/32.png) [@Puzzler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Puzzler)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2007, 8:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fight-my-ignorance-on-the-israel-palestine-debate/398682/88 "2007-04-16T08:33:42Z")
- post-siren \* [QUOTE=Alessan] Oh, I know that there are anti-semites out there. It’s just that as an Israeli, someone who’s never encountered old-style anti-semitism first hand, the whole concept is completely alien to my experience. Which is just the way I want it. Like it or not, obsessing about anti-semitism is a very _galuti_ way of thinking. It’s the sort of victim mentality we’re supposed to have left behind. We came to this country to build and be built, remember? The way I see it, if someone doesn’t like me, that’s their problem - and their loss. I’ll do everything to protect our lives and our land, but I won’t revive old boogeymen. I you should ponder that, especially today. Remember, the Shoah won’t happen again not because the world is different, but because \*we’re \* different. And part of being different is defining the world in different ways. [/QUOTE] No arguments there. I was confused at what you said earlier: [QUOTE=Alessan] by claiming that the people attacking us now are cut from the same cloth as our past enemies, its as if we’re saying that we Jews are the same as we were in the past. [/QUOTE] Which seems to be saying anti-Semitism is dependent on Jewish behaviour. But I understand where you were comming from now. Thanks for the clarafication. [hijack] I’ve started reading the “Ask the Israeli” thread… and noticed **Fin** there. He didn’t post AFAIC tell since December. Anyone knows what happend? [/hijack] ---
**Author:** ![FRDE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e68b1a/32.png) [@FRDE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FRDE)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2007, 11:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fight-my-ignorance-on-the-israel-palestine-debate/398682/89 "2007-04-16T11:28:17Z")
[QUOTE=Alessan] [Ask the Israeli Guy](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=318337&highlight=israeli). You feel like reviving it, be my guest. [/QUOTE] No, I would like to pick your brains, but in a different thread - say ‘Ask a Sabra’ ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2007, 12:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fight-my-ignorance-on-the-israel-palestine-debate/398682/90 "2007-04-16T12:28:33Z")
[QUOTE=Alessan] The way we used to live, the way we used to think back in Europe and elsewhere, that’s not going to happen again, at least not as far as we Israelis are concerned. We’ve changed the rules, the basic understandng of how the world works and where we stand in it. History isn’t repeating itself. [/QUOTE] This is not the first post from you which suggests that while Jews in other countries are still hung up on the past, Israelis have slung off the shackles of history and need not be vigilant about anti-Semitism any longer. At first I found this apparent sense of superiority insulting and disturbing in its ignorance. But maybe it’s a good thing. Instead of paying attention to historical forces (which are very much alive), the key concern for you and your countrymen should be eliminating the self-destructive policies of Israel, which unlike bigotry you _can_ do something about. ---
**Author:** ![Puzzler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/d07c76/32.png) [@Puzzler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Puzzler)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2007, 12:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fight-my-ignorance-on-the-israel-palestine-debate/398682/91 "2007-04-16T12:48:11Z")
[QUOTE=FRDE] No, I would like to pick your brains, but in a different thread - say ‘Ask a Sabra’ [/QUOTE] To whom are you refereing? ---
**Author:** ![FRDE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e68b1a/32.png) [@FRDE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FRDE)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2007, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fight-my-ignorance-on-the-israel-palestine-debate/398682/92 "2007-04-17T00:35:41Z")
[QUOTE=Jackmannii] This is not the first post from you which suggests that while Jews in other countries are still hung up on the past, Israelis have slung off the shackles of history and need not be vigilant about anti-Semitism any longer. At first I found this apparent sense of superiority insulting and disturbing in its ignorance. But maybe it’s a good thing. Instead of paying attention to historical forces (which are very much alive), the key concern for you and your countrymen should be eliminating the self-destructive policies of Israel, which unlike bigotry you _can_ do something about. [/QUOTE] I am not Israeli or Jewish, but I’ve had an opportunity to watch what has been going on there for some time - since 1991 to be precise. I’ve seen things change from Sabras joking about Russian immigrants, to seeing blank faces (suppressed irritation) when the same jokes were repeated. The Israelis have produced their own race, they are different, they view Jews as wimps - they are a nation - not a golf club. ---
**Author:** ![FRDE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e68b1a/32.png) [@FRDE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FRDE)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2007, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fight-my-ignorance-on-the-israel-palestine-debate/398682/93 "2007-04-17T00:38:24Z")
[QUOTE=Puzzler] To whom are you refereing? [/QUOTE] Allessan ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2007, 9:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fight-my-ignorance-on-the-israel-palestine-debate/398682/94 "2007-04-17T09:25:08Z")
**Pool** sorry to hear of your loss. [QUOTE=Puzzler] … [/QUOTE] _Re Koranic verse_ Are you reading the same verse?\* Sure, it narrates some battle involving Jews, but then it also involves loquacious flora and minerals so there’s some doubt about the right methods of interpretation here\* _defeat Zionism_ Right. So it’s OK then, right? \* Serves to demonstrate that Jewish people are not the concern.\* Do re-read the charter, will you.\* I must say for such a close and dedicated reading of the charter it is surprising that not one of the scholars in this thread lighted upon [this passage](http://www.palestinecenter.org/cpap/documents/charter.html) , it’s not like it’s hidden or anything: > [@](#): > > **Article Thirty-One: The Members of Other Religions The Hamas is a Humane Movement** Hamas is a humane movement, which cares for human rights and is committed to the tolerance inherent in Islam as regards attitudes towards other religions. It is only hostile to those who are hostile towards it, or stand in its way in order to disturb its moves or to frustrate its efforts. Under the shadow of Islam it is possible for the members of the three religions: Islam, Christianity and Judaism to coexist in safety and security. Safety and security can only prevail under the shadow of Islam, and recent and ancient history is the best witness to that effect. The members of other religions must desist from struggling against Islam over sovereignty in this region. The heading is kind of a giveaway, don’t you think?\* You are not a lawyer, are you? \* Outrageous!\* None of which is forthcoming. Thus, you must acquit!" \* But in the genocide claim, there is nothing but an ambiguous line of text, in a context that does not support the accusation. Your comparison does not hold, nor is evidence sufficient to show death and no other solution present.\* I read it carefully. It is almost entirely devoted to proves of the anti-Semitic nature of Hamas. \* Your interpretation and English isn’t your primary language.\* So, you feel that is Israel had a majority Muslim population and Islamic leadership, Hamas would still continue its activities without change? :dubious: \* No-one who has read the Hamas charter could ask that question. In any case it is almost an excellent question, save for ‘Muslim’ & ‘Islamic’. Instead ask about Quakers and Hindus. Then sure, Hamas would respond in just the same manner. It’s the occupation that irks not the ethnicity. \* - Minority Jewish population in Isr\* Cite? \* In a bit\* But tell you what: I’ll return the challenge. ..\* I think it rude when a question is replied to with another question instead of an answer.\* Show me that the Nazis hostility toward the Jews was independent of the Jewish presence at Europe. _Hitler lead the Nazis with a passion, they would have pursued Jews to the ends of the Earth._ ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2007, 9:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fight-my-ignorance-on-the-israel-palestine-debate/398682/95 "2007-04-17T09:26:20Z")
[QUOTE=Shodan] Not quite - **Sevastopol** is spreading anti-Semitic lies, as usual. The quote is from the Q’uran, which much predates the modern state of Israel. Therefore it can’t possibly refer to Zionism. Regards, Shodan [/QUOTE] And **Shodan’s** learning task of today is to write a job description for ‘Prophet.’ ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2007, 9:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fight-my-ignorance-on-the-israel-palestine-debate/398682/96 "2007-04-17T09:38:51Z")
[QUOTE=tomndebb] … [/QUOTE] Sure. That is why they include lies about the French Revolution, WWI, the Masons, and various fraternal organizations that, with the single exception of WWI, all occurred prior to the founding of Zionism. It is simply false to claim that all those lies were stated in the context of Israel or Zionism. \* No, that’s all prologue to claims concerning the misbegotten state and nature of Israel. \* - No, just all the Jews in the Levant. \* Again, a no evidence position.\* - a “prayer” that includes a number of blatant lies and which speaks only of destruction, not coexistence.\* If lies, that still doesn’t make them anti-semitic. Look through this thread, the evidence the very contrary.\* _contextual evidence_- You are repeating yourself.\* no, the point is the contextual evidence of the charter supports my view.\* … People do not put plans in charters or constitutions, so this is merely a red herring. \* That’s kind of silly don’t you think?\* - Though experiment\* Intersting experiment. The Jews have to leave their homes in Israel, but the Arabs do not have to leave their homes. Where do you propose the Jews & etc… \* Thought experiment. Not a policy proposal.\* There is no such evidence. [PLO Charter](http://www.netaxs.com/people/iris/plochart.htm) > [@](#): > > Article 5: The Palestinians are those Arab nationals who, until 1947, normally resided in Palestine regardless of whether they were evicted from it or have stayed there. Anyone born, after that date, of a Palestinian father - whether inside Palestine or outside it - is also a Palestinian. > > Article 6: The Jews who had normally resided in Palestine until the beginning of the Zionist invasion will be considered Palestinians. The Hamas rant is against Judaism, not Israel or even Zionism. \* Neither Judaism nor rant. \* ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2007, 9:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fight-my-ignorance-on-the-israel-palestine-debate/398682/97 "2007-04-17T09:42:19Z")
[QUOTE=Alessan] You know what? It makes not one whit of a difference to me if Hamas hates me because I’m a Jew or hates me because I’m an Israeli. Why should it? [/QUOTE] They’re Nazis! is Hi-Efficiency button-pushing in the US. Actual facts are a little nuanced if you want to stir up hysteria. ---
**Author:** ![Puzzler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/d07c76/32.png) [@Puzzler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Puzzler)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2007, 10:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fight-my-ignorance-on-the-israel-palestine-debate/398682/98 "2007-04-17T10:10:12Z")
[QUOTE=Sevastopol] Sure, it narrates some battle involving Jews, but then it also involves loquacious flora and minerals so there’s some doubt about the right methods of interpretation here [/quote] I think one would have to struggle in order to interpret it any other way that “let’s kill the Jews”. But I guess we’ll have to disagree on that. [QUOTE=Sevastopol] Serves to demonstrate that Jewish people are not the concern. [/quote] As I pointed before, Hamas knows how to distinguish Zionism from Judaism when they choose to. [QUOTE=Sevastopol] I must say for such a close and dedicated reading of the charter it is surprising that not one of the scholars in this thread lighted upon [this passage](http://www.palestinecenter.org/cpap/documents/charter.html) , it’s not like it’s hidden or anything: The heading is kind of a giveaway, don’t you think? [/quote] Here, let me highlight some parts you might have missed in that passge: > [@Hamas](#): > > Hamas is a humane movement, which cares for human rights and is committed to the tolerance inherent in Islam as regards attitudes towards other religions. **It is only hostile to those who** are hostile towards it, or **stand in its way** in order to disturb its moves or to frustrate its efforts. Under the shadow of Islam it is possible for the members of the three religions: Islam, Christianity and Judaism to coexist in safety and security. **Safety and security can only prevail under the shadow of Islam** , and recent and ancient history is the best witness to that effect. The members of other religions must desist from struggling against Islam over sovereignty in this region. Bolding added. [QUOTE=Sevastopol] Your interpretation and English isn’t your primary language. [/quote] True, on both parts. So help analyze otherwise, OK? Here is the passage in full. I colored the parts I consider to support anti-Semitism in red, others in blue (neutral stays black). Please correct as needed. > [@wiki](#): > > According to Matthias Küntzel antisemitism is a recurring theme in the Hamas Covenant and speeches of its leaders.[34] The Covenant cites The Protocols of the Elders of Zion, stating it embodies a “Zionist plan” for “limitless” territorial expansion: > Today it is Palestine, tomorrow it will be one country or another. The Zionist plan is limitless. After Palestine, the Zionists aspire to expand from the Nile to the Euphrates. When they will have digested the region they overtook, they will aspire to further expansion, and so on. Their plan is embodied in the “Protocols of the Elders of Zion” > Other examples in the Hamas Covenant include: > \ > Hamas categorizes the Freemasons, Lions Club, and the Rotarians as organizations promoting “the interest of Zionism.” It accuses those organizations, and the “Zionist invasion” in general, of being “behind the drug trade and alcoholism in all its kinds.” Hamas believes that Zionism was “behind the French Revolution, the Communist revolution and most of the revolutions we heard and hear about, here and there. With their money they formed secret societies, such as Freemasons, Rotary Clubs, the Lions and others in different parts of the world for the purpose of sabotaging societies and achieving Zionist interests.”[35] > According to Robert Wistrich, > “Like other Islamists, the Hamas uses antisemitic language, full of hatred towards Jews, ever since its foundation in 1987. In its Sacred Covenant [18 August 1988], there are frequent references to the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, which would have gladdened the hearts of Hitler and Goebbels. It is difficult to see what any of this has to do with spirituality, works of charity, dialogue or the search for peace.”[36] > In 1998, Esther Webman of the Project for the Study of Anti-Semitism at the Tel Aviv University wrote: “…the anti-Semitic rhetoric in Hamas leaflets is frequent and intense. Nevertheless, anti-Semitism is not the main tenet of Hamas ideology. Generally no differentiation was made in the leaflets between Jew and Zionist, in as much as Judaism was perceived as embracing Zionism, although in other Hamas publications and in interviews with its leaders attempts at this differentiation have been made.”[37] > According to Meir Litvak’s 2003 study, “In Hamas’ literature, antisemitism became almost dominant. Earlier antisemitic motifs are developed time and again in their magazine Falastin al-Muslama. Almost every issue contains anti-Jewish articles using elements from the Islamic tradition. Judaism is presented as a religion based on lies, which from its origin called for aggression against others and their exploitation.”[38] > Co-founder of Hamas Abdel Aziz al-Rantissi reiterated beliefs of Holocaust denial in 2003, contending that the Holocaust was a Zionist — Nazi collaboration for the purpose of encouraging emigration to Israel.[39] > The Hamas choice for Palestinian Prime Minister Ismail Haniyeh has stated: “We won’t allow any Wailing Walls [that the Jews might return to] on our blessed land.”[citation needed] On other occasion, Haniyeh denied antisemitism in Hamas ideology: “We do not have any feelings of animosity toward Jews. We do not wish to throw them into the sea. All we seek is to be given our land back, not to harm anybody.”[citation needed] > The chief of Hamas’ political bureau Khaled Meshaal also denied antisemitism in Hamas’s ideology: > “Our message to the Israelis is this: We do not fight you because you belong to a certain faith or culture. Jews have lived in the Muslim world for 13 centuries in peace and harmony; they are in our religion “the people of the book” who have a covenant from God and his messenger, Muhammad (peace be upon him), to be respected and protected.” > “Our conflict with you is not religious but political. We have no problem with Jews who have not attacked us — our problem is with those who came to our land, imposed themselves on us by force, destroyed our society and banished our people.”[40] > This stance contradicts evidence of indoctrination and incitement by other Hamas representatives, such as the director of Hamas Children’s Summer Camp in Gaza City Sohab Alissa: > “The first thing we want to teach them is their cause. They know from daily experience that their enemy is the Jew — our job is to explain why. In the Koran much is said about the bad behavior of the Jew. Some teachings say God cursed the Jews" Much red, little blue = mostly in support of the anti-Semitic nature, no? [QUOTE=Sevastopol] No-one who has read the Hamas charter could ask that question. In any case it is almost an excellent question, save for ‘Muslim’ & ‘Islamic’. Instead ask about Quakers and Hindus. Then sure, Hamas would respond in just the same manner. It’s the occupation that irks not the ethnicity. [/quote] Right… because everyone knows that the Quakers where behind the French revolution and the Hindus control the Free Masons :dubious: . [QUOTE=Sevastopol] Hitler lead the Nazis with a passion, they would have pursued Jews to the ends of the Earth. [/QUOTE] Methink you’re avoiding the question. ETA: You do realize that Hamas and the PLO are not the same, right? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2007, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fight-my-ignorance-on-the-israel-palestine-debate/398682/99 "2007-04-17T16:20:12Z")
[QUOTE=Sevastopol] [QUOTE=tomndebb] People do not put plans in charters or constitutions, so this is merely a red herring. [/QUOTE] - That’s kind of silly don’t you think?\* [/quote] I think that it is silly for you to play word games by saying the Hamas charter does not define a plan against the Jews when no charter or constitution ever defines a plan. [QUOTE=Sevastopol] - Neither Judaism nor rant. \* [/QUOTE] If you wish to claim the lies they included in their own charter regarding the French Revolution, the Masons, WWI, and other groups as anything other than a rant, that is your problem. Appealing to such false statements, to say nothing of relying on the forgery of _the Protocols of the Elders of Zion_ as a means to lay out the way that the Jews (not Israelis) have behaved badly in the past means that Hamas in intrinsically a dishonest group. For you to pretend that any of those events had anything to do with Israel indicates that you are willing to accept the lies of Hamas and to then further their lies, yourself. > [@Sevastopol](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > Article 6: The Jews who had normally resided in Palestine until the beginning of the Zionist invasion will be considered Palestinians. Interesting language. Vague enough to sound good, but also vague enough to be easily manipulated. Why do they not define the date when such an “invasion” occurred? Would they set that date as 1946? 1948? 1920s? 1903? 1880s? For such a well-_planned_ document, they seem to leave quite a bit of wiggle room for retroactively deciding who they wold choose to expel. [QUOTE=Sevastopol] > [@](#): > > **Article Thirty-One: The Members of Other Religions** The Hamas is a Humane Movement Hamas is a humane movement, which cares for human rights and is committed to the tolerance inherent in Islam as regards attitudes towards other religions. It is only hostile to those who are hostile towards it, or stand in its way in order to disturb its moves or to frustrate its efforts. Under the shadow of Islam it is possible for the members of the three religions: Islam, Christianity and Judaism to coexist in safety and security. Safety and security can only prevail under the shadow of Islam, and recent and ancient history is the best witness to that effect. The members of other religions must desist from struggling against Islam over sovereignty in this region. The heading is kind of a giveaway, don’t you think? [/QUOTE] From the Soviet Constitution of 1936: > [@](#): > > **ARTICLE 124.** In order to ensure to citizens freedom of conscience, the church in the U.S.S.R. is separated from the state, and the school from the church. Freedom of religious worship and freedom of antireligious propaganda is recognized for all citizens. I suggest that a single paragraph giving lip service to some ideal of religious freedom does not in any way offset paragraph after paragraph of hate speech, particularly when the hate speech is founded on dishonesty and direct lies. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2007, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fight-my-ignorance-on-the-israel-palestine-debate/398682/100 "2007-04-17T18:40:14Z")
[QUOTE=Sevastopol] And **Shodan’s** learning task of today is to write a job description for ‘Prophet.’ [/QUOTE] Are you alleging that the Qur’an was divinely inspired, and that the passage you quoted was a valid prophecy? Interesting - I didn’t know you were a fundamentalist Muslim. Do you feel the same about _The Protocol of the Elders of Zion_, which as **tomndebb** points out also seems to be one of the foundational documents of the Hamas charter? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fight-my-ignorance-on-the-israel-palestine-debate/398682.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fight-my-ignorance-on-the-israel-palestine-debate/398682.md?page=6)