# Fighter jet launching air to air missile on Passenger Plane - Expected Damage? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [September 13, 2016, 6:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fighter-jet-launching-air-to-air-missile-on-passenger-plane-expected-damage/765837 "2016-09-13T06:19:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2016, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fighter-jet-launching-air-to-air-missile-on-passenger-plane-expected-damage/765837/61 "2016-09-17T00:49:36Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > Thanks for the terminology details; I wasn’t aware of the distinction. Lagavulin 16 is indeed a pure malt. And pure heaven. With Laphroiag a close second. Why yes, I do like my peat. Smokey. Not unlike the fresh smell from the shock diamonds you light your cigs with. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2016, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fighter-jet-launching-air-to-air-missile-on-passenger-plane-expected-damage/765837/62 "2016-09-17T01:01:46Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > This conundrum was what lead to the 1950s development of SAMs and the received truism that “the bomber will always get through.” Isn’t “the bomber will always get through” older than the 1950’s? I think I once read about a speech by Prime Minister Baldwin where he used that phrase, in the 1930’s? It may be in Vol. I of Churchill’s history of WWII, but I’m on the move at the moment and can’t check. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2016, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fighter-jet-launching-air-to-air-missile-on-passenger-plane-expected-damage/765837/63 "2016-09-17T01:11:06Z")
You’re absolutely right that it predated WWII. It achieved new urgency in the 1950s when the result of just \*one \*bomber “leaking” through the defenses was no longer a couple thousand pounds of bombs somewhere near the target but instead a nuke in your downtown / harbor / airfield / etc. It’s the same problem we face today with missile defense. 99% interception success is still massive failure. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2016, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fighter-jet-launching-air-to-air-missile-on-passenger-plane-expected-damage/765837/64 "2016-09-17T02:01:23Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > Thanks for the terminology details; I wasn’t aware of the distinction. Lagavulin 16 is indeed a pure malt. And pure heaven. With Laphroiag a close second. Why yes, I do like my peat. With Talisker as a good runner-up, of course! ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2016, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fighter-jet-launching-air-to-air-missile-on-passenger-plane-expected-damage/765837/65 "2016-09-17T02:21:48Z")
By the way, welcome back, **LSLGuy**! ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2016, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fighter-jet-launching-air-to-air-missile-on-passenger-plane-expected-damage/765837/66 "2016-09-17T13:00:44Z")
Thanks. It’s good to be back. I missed my friends, or whatever noun best fits this odd assemblage of great people. I hope to avoid getting addicted (again) to day-wasting on here instead of using it wisely a few minutes a day. Good thing I don’t have the same problem w Talisker _et al_. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2016, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fighter-jet-launching-air-to-air-missile-on-passenger-plane-expected-damage/765837/67 "2016-09-17T14:12:15Z")
Wisely? Oban. ---
**Author:** ![Patch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a183cd/32.png) [@Patch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Patch)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2016, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fighter-jet-launching-air-to-air-missile-on-passenger-plane-expected-damage/765837/68 "2016-09-17T16:51:47Z")
> [@Hail\_Ants](#): > > I’ve read that those RAF pilots didn’t actually ‘tap’ the V-1’s wing. They got their wingtip close enough to one of the V-1’s wings that it spoiled the airflow over it causing it to stall and spiral in. I would love to see a cockpit photo of a V-1 from a plane about to do that. ---
**Author:** ![Corry\_El](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecae2f/32.png) [@Corry\_El](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Corry_El)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2016, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fighter-jet-launching-air-to-air-missile-on-passenger-plane-expected-damage/765837/69 "2016-09-17T17:45:08Z")
> [@rbroome](#): > > The Naval Talos SAM had a continuous rod warhead by 1960. The continuous rod warhead as known in the US was developed by EJ Workman at the New Mexico School of Mines\* in the early 1950’s. I don’t know which missile it was applied to first but Sidewinder before Talos. It was in reaction to a test of prototype Sidewinder with warhead from the HPAG unguided rocket v F6F-5K drone converions of the WWII Hellcat prop fighter in early 1956, where the warhead detonated close enough to pepper the F6F with fragments but it kept on flying (per “Sidewinder-Creative Missile Devlopment at China Lake”). It was adopted in Talos in the Mk.46 warhead as conventional option in ‘unified Talos’ (later RIM-8E) right around 1960, though that weapon had been in development (in different nuclear and conventional versions) for years prior. \*now known as New Mexico Tech; ‘Myth Busters’ did a number of their experiments using the rocket sled track there. ---
**Author:** ![rbroome](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/838e76/32.png) [@rbroome](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rbroome)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2016, 7:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fighter-jet-launching-air-to-air-missile-on-passenger-plane-expected-damage/765837/70 "2016-09-19T07:06:08Z")
> [@Corry\_El](#): > > The continuous rod warhead as known in the US was developed by EJ Workman at the New Mexico School of Mines\* in the early 1950’s. I don’t know which missile it was applied to first but Sidewinder before Talos. It was in reaction to a test of prototype Sidewinder with warhead from the HPAG unguided rocket v F6F-5K drone converions of the WWII Hellcat prop fighter in early 1956, where the warhead detonated close enough to pepper the F6F with fragments but it kept on flying (per “Sidewinder-Creative Missile Devlopment at China Lake”). It was adopted in Talos in the Mk.46 warhead as conventional option in ‘unified Talos’ (later RIM-8E) right around 1960, though that weapon had been in development (in different nuclear and conventional versions) for years prior. > > \*now known as New Mexico Tech; ‘Myth Busters’ did a number of their experiments using the rocket sled track there. Thanks. I didn’t remember when the original sidewinder had been developed. ---
**Author:** ![swampspruce](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/swampspruce/32/261_2.png) [@swampspruce](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/swampspruce)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2016, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fighter-jet-launching-air-to-air-missile-on-passenger-plane-expected-damage/765837/71 "2016-09-19T19:23:40Z")
> [@Patch](#): > > I would love to see a cockpit photo of a V-1 from a plane about to do that. [http://www.vcepinc.org/RareWWIIphotos.htm](http://www.vcepinc.org/RareWWIIphotos.htm) About as close as I could find; plus some other really cool things like a Ju-88 on floats. ---
**Author:** ![Corry\_El](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecae2f/32.png) [@Corry\_El](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Corry_El)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2016, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fighter-jet-launching-air-to-air-missile-on-passenger-plane-expected-damage/765837/72 "2016-09-19T19:59:50Z")
> [@swampspruce](#): > > plus some other really cool things like a Ju-88 on floats. That’s an He-115, their error not yours. But that’s a good find on the Spitfire/V-1 ‘tip’, think I’ve seen it before but not on the internet. ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2016, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fighter-jet-launching-air-to-air-missile-on-passenger-plane-expected-damage/765837/73 "2016-09-19T21:36:32Z")
> [@Machine\_Elf](#): > > May have been an official Soviet explanation at the time, but [the Soviet fighter pilot later recounted otherwise:](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_Air_Lines_Flight_007#Soviet_pilot.27s_recollection_of_shootdown) Plus, the standard spy planes tended to be converted airliners. While the AWACS has a distinctive top mounted antenna, as I understood at the time, some of the surveillance aircraft were just based on airliners and stuffed with electronic gear. They had a habit of trolling up and down the coast just outside the airspace boundary and monitoring radar etc. as it lit up. The Russians may have seen this as one just one more pass where trying to see what radios came on when they got too close… ---
**Author:** ![swampspruce](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/swampspruce/32/261_2.png) [@swampspruce](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/swampspruce)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2016, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fighter-jet-launching-air-to-air-missile-on-passenger-plane-expected-damage/765837/74 "2016-09-19T21:51:44Z")
> [@Corry\_El](#): > > That’s an He-115, their error not yours. But that’s a good find on the Spitfire/V-1 ‘tip’, think I’ve seen it before but not on the internet. I see that now. I did find an actual [JU-88 on floats](http://pedroluzcunha.blogspot.ca/2012/11/ju-88-on-floats.html) though. Based on what I’ve read about how difficult knocking the V1s by tipping was finding an in-cockpit shot is going to be well neigh impossible unless it was a Mozzie or from another aircraft. I’d love to see a vid in action though. ---
**Author:** ![Kelevra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/97f17d/32.png) [@Kelevra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kelevra)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2016, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fighter-jet-launching-air-to-air-missile-on-passenger-plane-expected-damage/765837/75 "2016-09-20T18:31:56Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > In the actual 9/11 scenario IIRC they ended up with some fighters airborne armed only with non-explosive training rounds for the cannon. Training missiles are useless; they’re a real seeker with no warhead or motor. A friend of mine works for the Air Force. He turns old jet fighters into target drones. Squadrons come in and practice attacking them (this is done over the Gulf of Mexico). He has said that they replace the missile warheads with cameras to record a “kill”, but sometimes the missile flies into the engine and destroys the drone. Not that on 9/11 they would have been hoping for that lucky of a shot! ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2016, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fighter-jet-launching-air-to-air-missile-on-passenger-plane-expected-damage/765837/76 "2016-09-20T23:47:48Z")
> [@Leo\_Bloom](#): > > Wisely? Oban. IMO Oban is thin and watery compared to Laphroiag or Lagavulin. The flavor is weak and insipid. In color terminology it’s got good hue but poor saturation. YMMV of course. Perhaps we should get a bottle of each and conduct a proper tasting. ---
**Author:** ![snfaulkner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snfaulkner/32/433_2.png) [@snfaulkner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snfaulkner)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2016, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fighter-jet-launching-air-to-air-missile-on-passenger-plane-expected-damage/765837/77 "2016-09-20T23:48:45Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > IMO Oban is thin and watery compared to Laphroiag or Lagavulin. The flavor is weak and insipid. In color terminology it’s got good hue but poor saturation. > > YMMV of course. Perhaps we should get a bottle of each and conduct a proper tasting. I’ll write up a research grant request. ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2016, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fighter-jet-launching-air-to-air-missile-on-passenger-plane-expected-damage/765837/78 "2016-09-30T00:37:50Z")
NORAD/FAA audio transcript, 9/11/2001: beginning page 73 the status and launch of our aircraft and rules of engagement, direction from Vice Preaident and others, and issuance of shoot down permissions: [http://www.rutgerslawreview.com/wp-content/uploads/special/911/Full%20audio%20transcript.pdf](http://www.rutgerslawreview.com/wp-content/uploads/special/911/Full%20audio%20transcript.pdf) The real-time audio: [9/11 ATC Transcripts & Audio - FAA NORAD Tapes - YouTube](https://youtu.be/DYBhgEm3j7A) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fighter-jet-launching-air-to-air-missile-on-passenger-plane-expected-damage/765837.md?page=3)