# Fighting depression. **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [December 20, 2009, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fighting-depression/521996 "2009-12-20T22:52:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Carol\_the\_Impaler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Carol\_the\_Impaler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carol_the_Impaler)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2009, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fighting-depression/521996/41 "2009-12-21T22:11:01Z")
[This](http://uhs.berkeley.edu/lookforthesigns/clinicaldepression.shtml#what) is a pretty good summary: > [@](#): > > How Is Clinical Depression Different From Normal Stress and Sadness? > Feeling sad and depressed is often a normal reaction to a stressful life situation. For example, it is normal to feel down after a major disappointment, or to have trouble sleeping or eating after a difficult relationship break-up. Usually, within a few days, perhaps after talking to a friend, we start to feel like ourselves again. > > Clinical depression is very different. It involves a noticeable change in functioning that persists for two weeks or longer. Imagine that for the last three months you’ve slept more than 10 hours a day and still feel tired, you have stomach problems, you’re unable to cope with life, and you wonder if dying would solve all your problems. Or, imagine not being able to sleep more than four hours a night, not wanting to spend time with family or friends, and constantly feeling irritable. And when friends try to reach out to you, you get even more upset and bothered. You lose perspective, and you don’t realize that what you’re experiencing is abnormal. You want to just “wait it out,” and you don’t get help because you think it’s weak to ask for help or you don’t want to burden your friends. > > These are some of the experiences that people can have when they suffer from clinical depression. Unlike normal stress and sadness, the symptoms of clinical depression persist and do not go away no matter how much the individual wants. Situational depression is a normal, healthy response to life events, of course. Clinical depression doesn’t have to have a trigger or cause. What strikes me in\*\* torie’s \*\*case is the predictability of it. I’ve been told by my mental health team that being emotionally depressed (as apart from chemically depressed) for periods on end can change your brain chemistry, contributing to a chemical depression. So, even if your depression is just due to a sucky life, not dealing with it can cause a permanent change to the brain. (Likewise, working on changing self talk and expectations can cause permanent positive changes in the brain.) Certainly, there is no cookie-cutter cause nor solution to depression. Not everyone needs drugs. But it’s a sin to not take drugs if they will help you. Not everyone needs them the rest of their lives. For many, many people, the drugs lift the burden and you feel more like yourself, which allows you to make more progress in therapy, for example. They can be an emotional re-set for many people. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2009, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fighting-depression/521996/42 "2009-12-21T22:24:43Z")
> [@Kelby](#): > > Yeah, shouldn’t try to paint everyone with the same brush. > > What’s helping now? Something, I hope. Celexa. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2009, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fighting-depression/521996/43 "2009-12-21T22:33:28Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > The problem is depression is a complex illness. There are dozens of biochemical anomalies that can cause depression. Problems with histamine, dopamine, adrenaline, testosterone, estrogen, thyroid, serotonin, various vitamins and minerals, medication side effects, etc. Thats on top of all the cognitive causes. There are easily dozens of different causes and factors. > > It sucks. I saw a study once on men with treatment resistant depression who weren’t responding to SSRIs. The reason they weren’t is because their depression was due to low testosterone levels. When those were fixed, many got better. > > I doubt any amount of talk therapy will fix a malfunctioning thyroid, as an example. Yep, and someone who CAN be “fixed” by CBT probably should do that - its way better to solve the root cause if the root cause is “you haven’t been trained how to think” over medicating someone to cover up the problem. Likewise, someone who isn’t exercising shouldn’t cover up lack of exercise with medication - exercise has so many additional benefits other than mood. I’m not a huge fan of medicating issues away (I don’t even take Advil or cold medicine unless I can’t stand it) - but I’m also not a huge fan of waving away health issues that can be treated with “eat better, exercise, get rid of your stress” when there are actually health issues back there that can’t be fixed by good ol’ clean livin’ ---
**Author:** ![Kelby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/a587f6/32.png) [@Kelby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kelby)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2009, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fighting-depression/521996/44 "2009-12-21T22:33:59Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > It seems to me that a major cause of depression, assuming nothing is actually **wrong with your brain** , is being stuck in some particular life circumstance that is undesirable but comfortible enough to avoid risking change. Possibly because it is what is “expected” of you or is inherent to your nature. IMHO, most people try to “fix” their problems with drugs or bullshit talk in order to try to trick themselves into fitting their square peg of a self into their round hole of their life. It is much more difficult to make real change and find a life that is more fitting because it means giving up what is comfortible. I think you’d be hard pressed to find research that supports objective differences in brain chemistry/structure between “normals” and clinically depressed folks. If you are implying that use of the term “chemical imbalance” is misplaced, I tend to agree. That is not to say that antidepressant meds are not helpful, they certainly are to many people. But when we hear, you have a chemical/neurotransmitter imbalance, here’s drug to fix it, that is more of a marketing ploy than science. I feel the flames acomin’. ---
**Author:** ![Blackberry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecd19e/32.png) [@Blackberry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blackberry)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2009, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fighting-depression/521996/45 "2009-12-21T22:48:45Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > “…the only thing more effective is regular exercise!” > -Pharm Rep, The Simpsons (explaining the benefits of ‘Focusyn’) > Excuse my ignorance on the subject, but how much of depression is caused by some sort of chemical imbalance where there is litterally something wrong with your brain and how much is caused by living a depressing life? > > For example, just a couple of things the OP said, it’s not out of the realm of possibility that you might have legitimate reasons for being disappointed with your friends. Or maybe you find your family tedious because maybe you wanted to be something more or other than a housewife? And it’s pretty easy to see how these things might cause a great deal of inner termoil and guilt because you believe that feeling this way might make you a horrible person. > And actually, I hadn’t read this part yet: > > Of course you feel depressed. You’re cooped inside all day. None of the people you associate with share your interests and most of them sound like jerks and ignorami. You are feeling disenchanted with your chosen profession. It seems to me that any of these things are reason enough to feel depressed. > > I mean what is someone going to do? Give you a pill that makes your classmates less of a bunch of assholes or makes sitting around the house by yourself less boring (ok, they might actually have pills for that)? > It seems to me that a major cause of depression, assuming nothing is actually wrong with your brain, is being stuck in some particular life circumstance that is undesirable but comfortible enough to avoid risking change. Possibly because it is what is “expected” of you or is inherent to your nature. IMHO, most people try to “fix” their problems with drugs or bullshit talk in order to try to trick themselves into fitting their square peg of a self into their round hole of their life. It is much more difficult to make real change and find a life that is more fitting because it means giving up what is comfortible. I agree with what you’re saying, it’s just that it’s impossible for some people to motivate themselves to make the necessary changes when they aren’t taking medication. I’ve been taking antidepressants off and on for about 15 years, and I’ve gotten into deep depressive states both ways, but with medication I can work up the energy to do something about it. ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2009, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fighting-depression/521996/46 "2009-12-21T23:01:08Z")
> [@Kelby](#): > > I think you’d be hard pressed to find research that supports objective differences in brain chemistry/structure between “normals” and clinically depressed folks. No need to flame when you have empirical data. 😃 There are a slew of research studies showing differences in brain chemistry and structure between those who have psychological disorders and those who do not. In fact, there’s evidence that thoughts and behavior can physically alter the structure of the brain. I just read a research paper about it yesterday. Don’t have the original sources at the present moment, but Random thing I found with a quick google search: > [@](#): > > But two seemingly different treatments can be highly effective: a form of talk therapy called cognitive-behavior therapy and a class of antidepressants called selective serotonin reuptake inhibitor antidepressants, or S.S.R.I.'s, drugs like Prozac and Zoloft. **It is well known that patients with the disorder have altered serotonin function compared with normal controls.** > > Brain imaging that uses PET scans, or positron emission topography, has shown that **the disorder is associated with functional hyperactivity of the caudate nucleus, a structure buried beneath the cerebral cortex.** Some researchers hypothesize that the caudate is part of a subcortical circuit that acts as a kind of filter, sifting out extraneous thoughts and impulses. > > In obsessive compulsive disorder, they theorize, the subcortical filter malfunctions, allowing the unwanted thoughts to reach the cortex and then on to consciousness. > > In a study by Dr. Lewis Baxter at the U.C.L.A. School of Medicine, **patients** with the disorder **who responded to either a reuptake inhibitor like Prozac or cognitive behavior therapy over 10 weeks** \*\*showed virtually the same changes in their brains, decreases in the activities of the caudate nuclei and, thus, changes toward normal function. \*\* From [here.](http://www.forensic-psych.com/articles/artNYTTalkTherapy8.27.02.html) Bolding mine. FTR, the article calls CBT ‘‘talk therapy,’’ and I disagree with that characterization. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2009, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fighting-depression/521996/47 "2009-12-21T23:19:01Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > “…the only thing more effective is regular exercise!” > -Pharm Rep, The Simpsons (explaining the benefits of ‘Focusyn’) > Excuse my ignorance on the subject, but how much of depression is caused by some sort of chemical imbalance where there is litterally something wrong with your brain and how much is caused by living a depressing life? Some of both. The last therapist I had pegged me as a chemical imbalance walking through the door. Because I said “my kids are healthy, I’m healthy, my sister has recovered from breast cancer and is clear, my other sister has been in recovery for a year and is getting her life straightened out, my husband loves me, I have a wonderful and supportive circle of girlfriends, my boss thinks I’m fantastic, my house is paid off, I have enough savings that if my husband and I were both to get laid off we wouldn’t need to change our standard of living for over a year - and the kids would still be able to afford college. I really don’t have self esteem issues…and I want to drive my car into a bridge abutment.” For me, I can’t get over the “what ifs” (which is why we have so much in savings quite honestly - its a coping mechanism.) What if the economy collapses completely. What if global warming makes my grandchildren’s lives impossible and dangerous (my kids are ten and eleven - why am I worried about my grandchildren!) What if my sister’s cancer comes back, or I end up with breast cancer. What if my husband dies of a heart attack. And, of course, what if the project I’m working on goes over budget and over schedule!!! And even when the what if’s fade to the background “THERE ARE CHILDREN STARVING IN SOMALIA! WE ARE BOMBING CHILDREN IN IRAQ!” And death…death will release me from worry…(Mine has always been a combination of depression and anxiety - when the anxiety is controlled the depression is controlled, when the depression is controlled, the anxiety is controlled. My screwed up brain chemistry is HUGE on borrowing trouble. Even when I know this isn’t rational. But I also had an episode triggered by my divorce and a subsequent a rape when I was 23. That was definitely a triggered event. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2009, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fighting-depression/521996/48 "2009-12-22T00:30:05Z")
> [@Kelby](#): > > I think you’d be hard pressed to find research that supports objective differences in brain chemistry/structure between “normals” and clinically depressed folks. > > If you are implying that use of the term “chemical imbalance” is misplaced, I tend to agree. I’m not really implying anything. I’m just wondering if there is something physically different about depressed people’s brain that makes them depressed or if being depressed changes your brain. It sounds like it’s a bit of both. > [@Kelby](#): > > I feel the flames acomin’. For me or you?😕 > [@Blackberry](#): > > I agree with what you’re saying, it’s just that it’s impossible for some people to motivate themselves to make the necessary changes when they aren’t taking medication. Not to mention that the lack of a proper support network would make it difficult to significantly make any real changes in your life. Sometimes people are unable to envision a life outside of the one they are currently living. ---
**Author:** ![willthekittensurvive](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/91b2a8/32.png) [@willthekittensurvive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/willthekittensurvive)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2009, 9:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fighting-depression/521996/49 "2009-12-22T09:28:50Z")
Is it me or does “Fighting Depression” sounds a lot more action-packed then it actually is? ---
**Author:** ![Shirley\_Ujest](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/45deac/32.png) [@Shirley\_Ujest](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shirley_Ujest)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2009, 10:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fighting-depression/521996/50 "2009-12-22T10:16:31Z")
> [@olivesmarch4th](#): > > **fessie** , the title of that book is one of my favorite quotes! It sounds phenomenal. I MUST check it out! I agree! I am printing out your post and checking out the book. ---
**Author:** ![fessie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c37758/32.png) [@fessie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fessie)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2009, 12:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fighting-depression/521996/51 "2009-12-22T12:06:25Z")
> [@willthekittensurvive](#): > > Is it me or does “Fighting Depression” sounds a lot more action-packed then it actually is? 😃 I’m so glad you like the book too, **Shirley**! ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2009, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fighting-depression/521996/52 "2009-12-22T12:52:02Z")
> [@torie](#): > > **Cat Whisperer** , you aren’t out to lunch at all. I don’t have a car, so I really don’t get to indulge interests unless other people are willing to accompany me. So I sit in the house all day long (Someone mentioned triggers. That’s a huge one.) unless I’m in school or I end up doing what other people like. I don’t know anyone around here that doesn’t find museums, plays, operas, comic books, gaming and history tedious. That was fine when I could carry myself to the things that inspired me and made me happy, but now it’s tiresome. I do feel like I’m constantly fitting myself in the wrong peg as a result. Cosmetology is great and I love it, but I hate the people I go to school with. This can be a very incestuous, catty, mean industry. I’ve been trying to work on my self-esteem to be able to do what I love and deal, but it’s hard to get picked on for being different all the time. I’m 27 years old, there’s no reason I should feel like I went back to high school. I muuuust say, Cosmetology School is not the kind of place where I’d expect to run into a ton of nerds. IME, things will get better once you’re out and working with grownups (which your classmates aren’t), but you still need to get there and yeah, it won’t be easy. Is there a university or a comic-book specialized store nearby? Those are places where you may be able to locate and join a Gaming Club; those often meet for 1-3 times a week (with specific games meeting on a specific day), and they’ll probably have someone who can pick you up. There may also be Roleplaying Clubs, an amateur Theatre group, or a Theatre Club, where again there should be someone who can pick you up. One of the cars that comes to my RP Games is an old-model Mini which brings 5 people, we call it “the can” as in “sardines.” ---
**Author:** ![Kelby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/a587f6/32.png) [@Kelby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kelby)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2009, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fighting-depression/521996/53 "2009-12-22T15:56:25Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > I’m not really implying anything. I’m just wondering if there is something physically different about depressed people’s brain that makes them depressed or if being depressed changes your brain. It sounds like it’s a bit of both. I won’t deny people in the throes of deep depression may have some bad chemicals floating around in their brains or the ones that are there aren’t working so well, and yeah, it is a chicken/egg thing. I personally don’t believe the vast majority of people diagnosed with chemical imbalances have broken brains. Broken lives that may lead to subtle chemical changes, maybe. So often the troubled children and adolescents I work with are characterized as having “mental illness” that needs psychiatric (see medication) treatment. They are prescribed a pill for their “imbalance” and that is all that is done for them. Again, the meds can and do help in a crisis, but should not be the only treatment. The entire family usually needs counseling. Often in these cases, the meds change/help the child’s behavior for a while, but if nothing in the family dynamic changes, the child reverts to old behavior/maladjustment. Unfortunately, what usually happens is the medication is changed and we start over again. We have a medical model approach to mental health right now. Though psychiatry offers valuable tools to troubled people, it cannot be the only treatment used to restore health. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2009, 6:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fighting-depression/521996/54 "2009-12-23T06:07:31Z")
> [@Kelby](#): > > \ > Often in these cases, the meds change/help the child’s behavior for a while, but if nothing in the family dynamic changes, the child reverts to old behavior/maladjustment. Unfortunately, what usually happens is the medication is changed and we start over again. > \ That’s what I see in the anxiety support group quite often; people get a wake-up call through their anxiety that their life is not working out as they’re living it, they start on medication, they start to feel better, so they don’t make any changes in their lives. Sooner or later the drugs stop working, and they’ve made no changes or done any work on fixing the bad habits they have that cause anxiety. I would like to make it clear to people that they’re better off having some short-term pain for long-term gain, but that is a really, really hard sell. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fighting-depression/521996.md?page=2)