# Fighting Ignorance: Are We Winning? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 2, 2002, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fighting-ignorance-are-we-winning/140052 "2002-12-02T22:30:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2002, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fighting-ignorance-are-we-winning/140052/1 "2002-12-02T22:30:49Z")
And by “we” I don’t just mean us Dopers, but society as a whole. Given **leechbabe** ’s recent [Pit Thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=146931) about a cow-orker who apparently doesn’t understand things as simple as a key, and my own current experience with cow-orkers (and boy, is there a Pit thread coming about some of them) who’ve been outwitted by such things as office chairs, ATM-like equipment, and an inability to do such simple multiplication as 10X24 in their heads, add to that the increase of such quality TV shows as the Moon Hoax program, “Crossing Over” and it’s clones (I think even Univision has one!), I have to wonder: Are we getting dumber? ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2002, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fighting-ignorance-are-we-winning/140052/2 "2002-12-02T22:51:14Z")
If there’s a real “War on Ignorance”, then it’s being waged on 6 billion different fronts (and growing). Speaking in general:[ul][li]assuming most individuals gradually but inevitably have bits of ignorance eroded by information new to them, [_]also assuming that raw data is increasing at a faster rate than any individual’s ability to accumulate it,[_]further assuming that the accumulation of information (i.e. eradication of ignorance) has little or no bearing on the individual’s ability to use that information productively,and finally noting that both the birth rate _and_ the death rate add, rather than subtract, from the aggregate level of ignorance[/ul]I’d have to say…[/li]Dunno. ---
**Author:** ![scotth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b9e5f3/32.png) [@scotth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scotth)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2002, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fighting-ignorance-are-we-winning/140052/3 "2002-12-02T22:55:37Z")
Interesting topic for today tuckerfan. I would say that we are not getting worse. We just aren’t getting better at nearly the rate that we should be. All these things that you mention were even bigger problems in the past. However, the recent trend is paranormal TV is alarming (at the very least). The paranormal coverage creaping into news articles and programs is most alarming of any of it, to me. I pitted [foxnews.com](http://foxnews.com) very recently for exactly this. I also began correspondance with a guy in my area of the country today on this topic as well. We plan on meeting in the near future and really consider what we might do to combat this problem with the media on the local if not larger scale. All this discussion happening earlier today explains why I found the timing of your post interesting. Overall, I would suggest basic science literacy and critical thinking are more prevelant in the population today than at any other time in history. That said, it is still **depressingly** low. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2002, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fighting-ignorance-are-we-winning/140052/4 "2002-12-02T23:01:18Z")
Its a losing battle. But one you fight for the principle of the thing, not because you are going to win. Kind of like voting for Nader. …So I heard…I didn’t vote for him… ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2002, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fighting-ignorance-are-we-winning/140052/5 "2002-12-02T23:12:19Z")
Yes, but what good is a higher literacy rate if all the population uses it for is things like _The Weekly World News_ (which can be highly entertaining for those of us who **don’t** take it seriously), romance novels, and other best selling glurge? While it’s positively naive to expect that humans will utilize their abilities to their maximum capability a majority of the time, if the vast majority of humans are content to simply remain little more than drooling idiots, then there’s a problem. ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2002, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fighting-ignorance-are-we-winning/140052/6 "2002-12-02T23:16:14Z")
Well, you can look at it like Will Rogers did. “We are all ignorant, only on different subjects.” ---
**Author:** ![scotth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b9e5f3/32.png) [@scotth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scotth)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2002, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fighting-ignorance-are-we-winning/140052/7 "2002-12-02T23:16:46Z")
Tuckerfan, If you were commenting on my use of literacy, I specifically said _science_ literacy. If not… ignore this post. ---
**Author:** ![scotth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b9e5f3/32.png) [@scotth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scotth)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2002, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fighting-ignorance-are-we-winning/140052/8 "2002-12-02T23:24:18Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by David Simmons \* > \*\*Well, you can look at it like Will Rogers did. “We are all ignorant, only on different subjects.” \*\* Some of us just seem to be ignorant on every subject. ---
**Author:** ![Largo62](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/45deac/32.png) [@Largo62](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Largo62)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2002, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fighting-ignorance-are-we-winning/140052/9 "2002-12-02T23:28:51Z")
Winning as a goal of the fight against ignorance is not as important ultimately as the struggle. Presumably the simple aggregate of knowledge will always outstrip hamanity’s ability to assimilate it. That’s why there are “experts.” No one can know everything, no matter at what level he/she assimilates new knowledge. We will always be more ignorant than knowledgeable. The stiving is what really counts. I think people who wish to know and try to know are generally doing okay if they become a little less ignorant every day. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2002, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fighting-ignorance-are-we-winning/140052/10 "2002-12-03T00:02:27Z")
Every day, people learn more. Every day, there is more to know. Excellent. ---
**Author:** ![Mtgman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5a626/32.png) [@Mtgman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mtgman)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2002, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fighting-ignorance-are-we-winning/140052/11 "2002-12-03T00:05:54Z")
We’re getting our asses kicked. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2002, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fighting-ignorance-are-we-winning/140052/12 "2002-12-03T01:11:12Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by DesertGeezer \* > \*\*Winning as a goal of the fight against ignorance is not as important ultimately as the struggle. Presumably the simple aggregate of knowledge will always outstrip hamanity’s ability to assimilate it. That’s why there are “experts.” No one can know everything, no matter at what level he/she assimilates new knowledge. We will always be more ignorant than knowledgeable. The stiving is what really counts. I think people who wish to know and try to know are generally doing okay if they become a little less ignorant every day. \*\* I agree with some of what you say, **Geezer** , but I’m also worried by folks who are so “over-specialized” that while they can do amazing feats of intellect, can’t master something as simple as cooking a meal. (I knew a double PhD who couldn’t figure out how to boil water.) That, to my mind, is almost as bad as the willful ignorant. ---
**Author:** ![nameless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/779978/32.png) [@nameless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nameless)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2002, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fighting-ignorance-are-we-winning/140052/13 "2002-12-03T01:46:44Z")
Ahh yes, specialization. Knowledge taken to its most absurd degree. I shudder to think of what might be in the event of a civilization-ending trauma… [destitute man #1]: “We need someone to forge tools and weapons out of metal” [destitute man #2]: “Well, I can design and build exhaust manifold components for a sort of reusable spacefaring vessel. Will that help?” Ignorance certainly _seems_ more prevalent now then ever… but I think this is mostly due to the “grass-is-greener” effect of retrospection. Hell, there’s ignorant people in any given era. Specialization is by far more frightening, however. There’s only so much one can do to educate the world, but the lack of general knowledge among even the best-educated of individuals is certainly detrimental to society. Society is moving towards mechanization. We’re like the man in the box translating chinese to english without understanding any of it (Like in the Turing test dialogues. Do try to keep up.) The failure of society to understand life as a whole is saddening. Renaissance men and women will rule the world. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2002, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fighting-ignorance-are-we-winning/140052/14 "2002-12-03T01:59:34Z")
The only true wisdom is in knowing that you are NOT wise. I guess. And hey-I LIKE romance novels. :o ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2002, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fighting-ignorance-are-we-winning/140052/15 "2002-12-03T02:59:01Z")
I’m reminded of the parable of the seeds in the gospels. We toss the seeds of knowledge, and most of it falls on rocky ground, but occassionally some of it falls on fertile ground and becomes a mighty tree…well maybe not a tree, maybe a shrub. ---
**Author:** ![scotth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b9e5f3/32.png) [@scotth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scotth)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2002, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fighting-ignorance-are-we-winning/140052/16 "2002-12-03T03:35:19Z")
And who exactly are you calling a shrub?🆒 ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2002, 10:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fighting-ignorance-are-we-winning/140052/17 "2002-12-03T10:28:25Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Guinastasia \* > \*\*The only true wisdom is in knowing that you are NOT wise. > > I guess. > > And hey-I LIKE romance novels. :o \*\* Yeah, but **Guin** its not like they’re the _only_ thing you read. I know plenty of people (one of my SIL’s, for example), who _only_ read romance novels. **That’s** bad. ---
**Author:** ![partly\_warmer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bc8723/32.png) [@partly\_warmer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/partly_warmer)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2002, 11:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fighting-ignorance-are-we-winning/140052/18 "2002-12-03T11:37:38Z")
Winning the fight on ignorance? Does that beating down misassumptions, or statistically, gaining a larger balance of the truth / misunderstanding ratio? Are we beating down common misbeliefs? Yes. Is this exercise valuable? Yes. Is the number of unsubstantiated/bigoted/misunderstood pieces of information going down proportionate to the number of fairly reliable truths? No, I guess. It’s not just that there an astonishing number of new discoveries each year, it’s that our ability to sort between those that are plausible and implausible (or useful vs. dangerous) isn’t improving. Add to that the public’s fascination with the National Enquirer, and let’s be honest, National Geographic and Scientific American, it doesn’t seem we’re changing the balance. People are still believing what’s comfortable. ---
**Author:** ![Aro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b3f665/32.png) [@Aro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aro)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2002, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fighting-ignorance-are-we-winning/140052/19 "2002-12-03T12:49:24Z")
The amount of knowledge people need to know in this technological era, just to get by in everyday life, is mind-blowing. And it is increasing all the time. It is only going to get harder and harder to keep a reasonable knowledge across the board. It’s unsuprising some people just throw up their arms and dismiss _any_ book learning, and try just to _get through_ life the easy, simple way. As F Scott Fitzgerald sad in GG _" Life is more sucessful looked at through a single window, after all"_. That’s why we specialise, become experts in minute fields of interest. There is too much to know, too little time to learn something from all fields. (But, the board is winning for me. So the fight is not for nothing. I pass on lots of facts I learn here. Baby steps, baby steps.) ---
**Author:** ![jovan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/0ea827/32.png) [@jovan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jovan)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2002, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fighting-ignorance-are-we-winning/140052/20 "2002-12-03T15:05:55Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Guinastasia \* > \*\*The only true wisdom is in knowing that you are NOT wise. > > I guess. > \*\* If I may, from the _Dhammapada_ (5.4): > [@](#): > > The fool aware of his stupidity > Is in so far wise, > But the fool thinking himself wise > Is called a fool indeed. I don’t think there has been much change in the way people acquire knowledge. I’m not talking about media and stuff, but rather the kind of mental exercise through which we gather information. In some sort of absolute, general knowledge (especially scientific) has become more “true” or at least accurate. However, much of it is IMO purely gobbled up as belief. There might be more knowledge but IMV, there isn’t a whole lot more understanding. Of course, I’m using a mighty big brush… [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fighting-ignorance-are-we-winning/140052.md?page=2)