# Fighting Ignorance? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 31, 2003, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fighting-ignorance/198707 "2003-08-31T00:02:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![DMC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dmc/32/18049_2.png) [@DMC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMC)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2003, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fighting-ignorance/198707/101 "2003-09-01T01:05:26Z")
milroyj, You’ve posted 9 times since you were asked to provide a cite to backup your claim regarding Aldebaran. Did you forget? Please note that there’s a difference between hatred towards America and hatred towards our policies and actions. I didn’t dictate our policy, and I’m certainly not the one running around overthrowing governments, so Aldebaran has never said anything I would consider hateful to me. Perhaps I missed it, and look forward to your showing me the light. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2003, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fighting-ignorance/198707/102 "2003-09-01T01:43:13Z")
Beyond the now habitually embarrasing spectacle **milroyj** is making of himself, what is frightening to consider is that the current Administration finds an echo-chamber in simple-minded xenophobes like him. From a foreign perspective, it also partly explains the sort of Americans that buy into the tripe being fed from up above. However, truth be told, it’s not the **milroyj’s** of this world I am concerned about, they are simply ideological throwaway minions with little or no influence, but rather the **Scylla and S. Stone** \* types, seemingly rational and intelligent individuals _until_ they put on their ideological blinders. They worry me because they are very good at obfuscation and quite active in spreading their Gospel to the apathetic masses. The same masses that _might_ decide the next election – barring additional foul play. But no, of course not, I hardly think of someone like **milroyj** as representaitive of Americans. I lived there for many years and I realize that no one has the Asshole Market cornered. \*Used for illustrative purposes only. I know **Sam’s** a Canadian True Believer® ---
**Author:** ![Bruce\_Daddy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/85f322/32.png) [@Bruce\_Daddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bruce_Daddy)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2003, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fighting-ignorance/198707/103 "2003-09-01T01:46:19Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by friedo \* > \*\*Knowledge is half the battle. \*\* _Knowing_ is half the battle. G. I. Joe! ---
**Author:** ![DMC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dmc/32/18049_2.png) [@DMC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMC)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2003, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fighting-ignorance/198707/104 "2003-09-01T01:55:38Z")
Redfury, Both Scylla and Sam Stone are usually quite willing to concede a point when presented with reliable evidence in opposition to their stance. Those times when they don’t, they are called on it, and then either rebutt it, or concede. So, while they are indeed quite different from the milroyjs of the board, they are also an important part of the debating process. Admittedly, there has been a death of reliable evidence on **both** sides of many current issues lately, thus making it appear that they are operating with blinders on, but that’s equally true for their opposition. There is also a lot of grey area that is currently unprovable in many of these same topics, so it often boils down to partisan sniping on both sides. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2003, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fighting-ignorance/198707/105 "2003-09-01T03:30:41Z")
**DMC** , about the only issue that concerns me in the American political scene is foreign policy. Within that context, I believe there has been copious evidence – and growing daily – put forth to prove that the Iraq invasion was marketed to the general public under less than transparent motives. In fact, diplomacy aside, it was done under outright lies and trumped-up charges. And yes, I admit to taking a fairly dogmatic stand with regards to _that particular issue_. One that however, does not translate into the endless partisan bickering Americans seem to be constantly engaged in. Why? Becuase I think there’s plenty of blame to go around – after all, most Democrats went along for the ride. And perhaps most galling of all, was that while all of this was happening, the _information_ that refuted most of the charges leveled, was only a few clicks away. Not surprisingly, many of those facts and rebuttals surfaced on this very BB at the time and are still as pertinent today. Bipartisan political sloth and/or greed at its worse. Now, to try to tie the above with what I said in my prior post. I also think it evident that the current Administration has engaged in pattern of ever-shifting justifications of the Iraq invasion – again, quite frankly, less than disingenuous for all but the most partisan of backers to realize. And it is in that particular sense that I liken **Scylla and Sam** to people like **Rumsfeld and Rice** – without the perks that I am aware. And yes of course they play an important role here, never meant to imply the opposite. Moreover, I believe that _they_ believe their obfuscations, thus making them quite honest if that makes any sense. Not unlike living in diffrent universes with the same set of facts. A feat I find nothing short of amazing. As an example, if you haven’t already, please take a look at this thread: [**The “Big Impact” Plan for Iraqui WMDs**](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=201634). I think it encapsulates my frustrations with the kind of Bush rethoric that is so en vogue, perfectly. Particularly after page two or so, once **Mr Svinlesha** makes his appearance, the whole thing becomes akin to trying to catch a greased eel with a stick of butter. Like I said, they are very good at what they do. And they seemingly have endless reserves of energy and perseverance – certainly much superior to my own. Not a whine but rather the opposite, credit where credit is due. But that’s _why_ they worry me unlike idjits like **milroyj**. Hope I made things a bit clearer and my apologies to others for the hijack. ---
**Author:** ![JerseyDiamond](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/8491ac/32.png) [@JerseyDiamond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JerseyDiamond)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2003, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fighting-ignorance/198707/106 "2003-09-01T03:31:26Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by dantheman \* > > > [@](#): > > > > _Originally posted by Millen_ > > \*\*I was going to let this matter drop… > > > > You don’t permit hateful comments against religious groups? > > There’s enough hatred directed at “Fundies” on this board to power a small city for six months.\*\* > > \*\*_sigh_ > > Cite? \*\* You want a cite? Reading any thread involving gobear, mockingbird/hastur, or homebrew against me or joe\_cool. Will those three be banned for their hate speech? joe\_cool was banned, and nothing he ever said was even close to the foaming at hte mouth displays they put on regularly. But when the “prominent gay people” are hateful, it’s ok. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![dantheman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dantheman/32/9421_2.png) [@dantheman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dantheman)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2003, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fighting-ignorance/198707/107 "2003-09-01T03:34:36Z")
I asked for a cite. The proper response is, “Ah, yes. Here’s one. At this link I have provided.” The proper response isn’t, “Read any of a zillion threads that I can’t be bothered to find right now.” 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b2d939/32.png) [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C_K_Dexter_Haven)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2003, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fighting-ignorance/198707/108 "2003-09-01T04:08:05Z")
I repeat: mods can’t be everywhere, and can’t see everything. If you think that someone has made a hate-speech, here are your basic choices: (a) Do nothing, but whine about it in general (being careful not to provide specific cites), gripe about how the mods are unfairly clamping down only on one side, etc. or (b) Report the post to the mods, so that they can decide whether it’s an infraction or not. (The mods might not agree with you, of course. And remember that there is a difference in what is acceptable, based on forum.) Your call how you want to handle these situations. ---
**Author:** ![JerseyDiamond](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/8491ac/32.png) [@JerseyDiamond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JerseyDiamond)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2003, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fighting-ignorance/198707/109 "2003-09-01T04:20:12Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by C K Dexter Haven \* > \*\*I repeat: mods can’t be everywhere, and can’t see everything. > > If you think that someone has made a hate-speech, here are your basic choices: > (a) Do nothing, but whine about it in general (being careful not to provide specific cites), gripe about how the mods are unfairly clamping down only on one side, etc. > or > (b) Report the post to the mods, so that they can decide whether it’s an infraction or not. (The mods might not agree with you, of course. And remember that there is a difference in what is acceptable, based on forum.) > > Your call how you want to handle these situations. \*\* It doensn’t matter if you report it. I have always reported the _hate speech_. There is too much bias around here. When I have some free time, I’ll foward all those complaints to you. Not that it matters, it falls upon blind eyes anyway. ---
**Author:** ![C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b2d939/32.png) [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C_K_Dexter_Haven)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2003, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fighting-ignorance/198707/110 "2003-09-01T04:30:24Z")
Yes, please do. And also please note: (1) the mods’ interpretation of what is acceptable political diatribe and what is unacceptable hate speech may be different from yours. (2) standards are different in different forums (3) we do respect privacy. Just because we didn’t do something visible and public doesn’t mean it fell “upon blind eyes.” Action may have been taken behind the scenes, and often is. ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2003, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fighting-ignorance/198707/111 "2003-09-01T05:09:46Z")
I think some Dopers read criticism and think that it is hate speech. ---
**Author:** ![DMC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dmc/32/18049_2.png) [@DMC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMC)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2003, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fighting-ignorance/198707/112 "2003-09-01T05:19:33Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by JerseyDiamond \* > **I have always reported the _hate speech_.** I’m not sure what you consider hate speech against fundies, but would it be something like this? > [@](#): > > Ben, I don’t mock anthing about the LDS. It’s not a religion to me. It’s a very unfunny joke. While I don’t really consider the above to be hate speech, I’m guessing that the links you’re planning on providing us are similar in nature, except that they are directed at you. Would you care to prove me wrong? ---
**Author:** ![TheLoadedDog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/35a633/32.png) [@TheLoadedDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TheLoadedDog)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2003, 6:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fighting-ignorance/198707/113 "2003-09-01T06:01:49Z")
**milroyj** , you’re… well… you’re just plain ol’ _wrong_ here. This board is anti-American my arse (no wait, ass 😃 ). As a recent example, **Airman Doors, USAF** posted a [thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=205414) dissing Australian government policy. Do I agree with him? Not particularly. Am I personally insulted as an Australian? Not particularly. He exercised a his right to post his OP, and I’m sure the Aussies who disagreed with him all did so without resorting to saying “Mum, that nasty ol’ American’s picking on us again!” Most of the Americans on this board act the same way. Well, _you_ don’t, but most of 'em do. The reason there aren’t more threads criticising countries other than the US is that, whilst nominally international, the SDMB remains an American board. Not pro-American, not anti-American -just plain ol’ American. If anything, I’ve found that most threads critical of the United States are started _by_ Americans. There may even be a little self-censorship on the part of non-American Dopers in this regard. That may or may not be a good thing, but heck, you guys are our hosts here. Another example: the most powerful man in your country… da boss… the big cheese… is one George W. Bush. He represents America, like it or not. And how many threads are critical of him? How many critical of US foreign and domestic policies? And how many of these are started by US citizens? Most of them, I think you’ll find. Your argument doesn’t hold water. ---
**Author:** ![Boo\_Boo\_Foo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e274bd/32.png) [@Boo\_Boo\_Foo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boo_Boo_Foo)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2003, 6:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fighting-ignorance/198707/114 "2003-09-01T06:29:09Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by milroyj \* > \*\*When it comes to who the President is, what actions we should take in the name of security, or foreign policy, where we act in our _own_ interests, non-American opinions absolutely do not count, by definition. > > Mods: If you have a blanket rule against hate speech, why do you allow hate speech directed at Americans? \*\* You know - as uncomfortable as this is for me to read - in the interests of fairness I feel I have to concede that **milroyj** has made a valid point here, (although I suspect quite unwittingly). You see, whilst it’s true that democracy is a wonderful concept in full flight, the truth is that democracy is something which is practiced INTERNALLY to a given nation/state - and more importantly, there’s really no such thing as democracy at the international nation/state level. Indeed, at the international level it really is every man for himself, or “all bets are off” for want of a better description. Yes, it’s true that some nation/states get on better with each other than other nation/states - and some of them enter into military and trading alliances - but the reality is that democracy is an internal thing, not an external thing. So in this context, **milroyj** ironically is quite correct, oddly enough. However - even though Milroyj makes a valid point - there is still something unresolved about his position - namely, the lack of graciousness. Anyone can be brutally blunt. But in my experience, to tell the truth in a gracious manner is a much harder thing to do. Most importantly of all, to hear the truth and to take it on board for what it’s worth is a real test of wisdom I reckon. ---
**Author:** ![Coldfire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a587f6/32.png) [@Coldfire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Coldfire)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2003, 9:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fighting-ignorance/198707/115 "2003-09-01T09:22:01Z")
Point is, **milroyj** apparently wants all non-Americans to shut the fuck up whenever US politics are being discussed. _That’s_ what’s wrong. I may not be able to vote GWB out of the White House, but I sure as hell am not going to let some intellectually challenged xenophobe tell me I can’t _opine_ about Dubya. ---
**Author:** ![Boo\_Boo\_Foo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e274bd/32.png) [@Boo\_Boo\_Foo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boo_Boo_Foo)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2003, 9:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fighting-ignorance/198707/116 "2003-09-01T09:33:47Z")
And something else **Coldie** is this - the USA has more influence on world events than any other nation too. Whether it be that nation’s media conglomerates, or economic policies, or military actions, or an unwise decision in supporting a foreign government which (in hindsight) really shouldn’t be supported - all of these things directly affect the lives of many, MANY people the world over - accordingly comment by foreigners is hardly out of line. Put it this way… yes, it’s true that a boss is allowed to do what he wants - especially if he owns the company - but that doesn’t automatically extend that his employees are denied the right to comment on his actions. Those employees are affected by that boss’s decisions - and if those decisions are **bad** decisions, said employees are entirely legitamately entitled to air a grievance. But worse yet, in the last decade the USA has given us Britney Spears, Beyonce, Christina Aguilera, 'NSync, and The Back Street Boys - and I, for one, am TOTALLY pissed off. ---
**Author:** ![Coldfire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a587f6/32.png) [@Coldfire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Coldfire)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2003, 9:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fighting-ignorance/198707/117 "2003-09-01T09:56:30Z")
Hey, don’t knock Beyoncé. She’s perfect, as long as the TV’s muted and Pink Floyd’s playing on the stereo. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Boo\_Boo\_Foo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e274bd/32.png) [@Boo\_Boo\_Foo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boo_Boo_Foo)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2003, 10:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fighting-ignorance/198707/118 "2003-09-01T10:02:50Z")
Well… perfect insofar as a chronic addiction to slimming tablets go - heh heh heh. As someone once noted regarding her blonde hair - “the curtain drape’s DEFINITELY don’t match the carpet” if you know what I mean! Mind you, the ultimate culture trip would be to watch an 'NSync video in muted mode while Pink Floyd’s “Oooh I Need a Dirty Woman” was playing on the stereo. Man, that would be too much - way too much. ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2003, 1:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fighting-ignorance/198707/119 "2003-09-01T13:01:31Z")
I like your analogy, Boo Boo Foo: > [@](#): > > Put it this way… yes, it’s true that a boss is allowed to do what he wants - especially if he owns the company - but that doesn’t automatically extend that his employees are denied the right to comment on his actions. Those employees are affected by that boss’s decisions - and if those decisions are bad decisions, said employees are entirely legitamately entitled to air a grievance. But it breaks down in one critical respect: If employees disagree with the boss’s decisions and what flows from them, they are free to leave and seek employment elsewhere. The same freedom to escape consequences doesn’t apply when American policy affects those outside the USA. Which, to me, is all the more reason why American policymakers should show “a decent respect” to non-American opinions. As to our cultural exports… some causes are lost from the start. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![dantheman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dantheman/32/9421_2.png) [@dantheman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dantheman)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2003, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fighting-ignorance/198707/120 "2003-09-01T13:05:08Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Coldfire \* > \*\*Hey, don’t knock Beyoncé. She’s perfect, as long as the TV’s muted and Pink Floyd’s playing on the stereo. 🙂 \*\* I like it when she Beyoncés up and down. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fighting-ignorance/198707.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fighting-ignorance/198707.md?page=7)