# Fighting misogyny - but "cunt" and "bitch" are still okay words **URL:** \ **Category:** About This Message Board\ **Created:** [May 14, 2020, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fighting-misogyny-but-cunt-and-bitch-are-still-okay-words/853769 "2020-05-14T04:16:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2020, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fighting-misogyny-but-cunt-and-bitch-are-still-okay-words/853769/81 "2020-05-17T17:10:49Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > I’m not using the SDMB as the metric for that determination, I’m using the opinions of women I know in real life about how problematic those words are. Thank you. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2020, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fighting-misogyny-but-cunt-and-bitch-are-still-okay-words/853769/82 "2020-05-17T17:49:52Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > When determining what the majority opinion is as to what constitutes “obvious misogyny”, do you factor in that the vast majority here are of the male persuasion? I realize SDMB has a predominantly American membership, but not exclusively so. That’s worth considering as well in how certain words are commonly used/interpreted. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2020, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fighting-misogyny-but-cunt-and-bitch-are-still-okay-words/853769/83 "2020-05-17T18:40:10Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > I realize SDMB has a predominantly American membership, but not exclusively so. That’s worth considering as well in how certain words are commonly used/interpreted. I don’t think that this is a significant consideration. I was born in the U.K., and obviously I’m aware that our usage of c\*\*\* is different. It has a vastly broader range, it’s just as often applied to men, and used among male friends can be so mild that it’s a term of endearment. But the wide U.K. range of meaning does extend (according to context) to being severely offensive and misogynistic, so the range does incorporate U.S. usage. And I think most Brits are aware of the difference in U.S. usage. So if a majority-U.S. board were to decide to ban the word based on U.S.-centric cultural norms, it’s not as though it would be particularly difficult for non-U.S. members to understand and to adapt to that etiquette. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2020, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fighting-misogyny-but-cunt-and-bitch-are-still-okay-words/853769/84 "2020-05-17T18:52:21Z")
This thread makes it clear why we need women on the moderation team. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2020, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fighting-misogyny-but-cunt-and-bitch-are-still-okay-words/853769/85 "2020-05-17T19:14:24Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > I don’t think that this is a significant consideration. I was born in the U.K., and obviously I’m aware that our usage of c\*\*\* is different. It has a vastly broader range, it’s just as often applied to men, and used among male friends can be so mild that it’s a term of endearment. But the wide U.K. range of meaning does extend (according to context) to being severely offensive and misogynistic, so the range does incorporate U.S. usage. And I think most Brits are aware of the difference in U.S. usage. > > So if a majority-U.S. board were to decide to ban the word based on U.S.-centric cultural norms, it’s not as though it would be particularly difficult for non-U.S. members to understand and to adapt to that etiquette. I’d prefer to focus on changing attitudes than banning words. We’ve seen enough perfectly benign language and symbols be turned into things meant to offend and signal those who are like minded. That just might have the desired effect of certain words falling out of use. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2020, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fighting-misogyny-but-cunt-and-bitch-are-still-okay-words/853769/86 "2020-05-17T19:15:29Z")
> [@madmonk28](#): > > This thread makes it clear why we need women on the moderation team. That can only be a very good thing. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2020, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fighting-misogyny-but-cunt-and-bitch-are-still-okay-words/853769/87 "2020-05-17T23:17:32Z")
> [@madmonk28](#): > > This thread makes it clear why we need women on the moderation team. Last time I asked about new mods (including, presumably, women on the mod team), they said that they’re waiting for the new software, so they won’t have to teach the new mods a software that’s about to go away. But who knows when that’s going to be? To the staff, I’d suggest going ahead and getting the new mods – maybe they don’t need to become experts in the software, but at least they could look at posts and point out the ones that need moderation to the other mods (which I guess we can all do already by reporting, but I think it would be different coming from from newly empowered women mods), and take part in the evaluation of other potentially problematic posts and posters. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2020, 10:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fighting-misogyny-but-cunt-and-bitch-are-still-okay-words/853769/88 "2020-05-18T10:41:18Z")
I don’t think that we can wait until there is new software; will there be any women posters left by then to recruit as mods? Not if we keep being so casually dismissive of what they have to say as we are here. ---
**Author:** ![road\_lobo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d78d45/32.png) [@road\_lobo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/road_lobo)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2020, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fighting-misogyny-but-cunt-and-bitch-are-still-okay-words/853769/89 "2020-05-18T12:46:23Z")
Please let me know when I have permission to typing in AAVE, senpai! Ratchet bitches. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Bravo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_bravo/32/493_2.png) [@Johnny\_Bravo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Bravo)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2020, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fighting-misogyny-but-cunt-and-bitch-are-still-okay-words/853769/90 "2020-05-18T13:13:20Z")
There is no organization sitting around deciding which words are acceptable and which aren’t.\* Language constantly evolves. Right now, here in 2020, we are in the middle of a pretty heavy shift in the way we use language to describe other genders, other races, other religions. A lot of stuff is in flux and some words may be ‘spicy’ in one part of the world and vile somewhere else. But the attempt to create glossaries of anathema words is a disingenuous way of fighting natural linguistic change, because it sets up these meaningless little battles about whether one insult is " qualitatively different" than another insult. Our rules around here are not opaque. Don’t be a jerk. If you’re being a jerk, you’ll be told and will be given the opportunity to stop being a jerk. If you continue to be a jerk, you’ll be asked to go be a jerk somewhere else. And since moderating is done by human beings with human foibles using standards created by human being with human foibles, it will never, never, ever be done with anything approaching parity. If you’re writing a post and think, hmm, maybe this post will make me sound like a jerk even though I’m not directly insulting another poster, maybe go ahead and rewrite the post. Maybe find a way to say what you want to say without using words that skirt the not-very-fine line between polite language and being an asshole. If you find yourself absolutely incapable of having that little mental conversation with yourself, I guess keep doing what you’re doing and accept that you’ll eventually get banned. I’ve seen a few posters throw around the idea of “community standards” with contempt, like it’s a codeword for internet gestapo looking for excuses to get rid of those who don’t conform to the groupthink. As usual, as always, [there is an XKCD for that.](https://xkcd.com/1357/) \*unless you’re French ---
**Author:** ![road\_lobo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d78d45/32.png) [@road\_lobo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/road_lobo)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2020, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fighting-misogyny-but-cunt-and-bitch-are-still-okay-words/853769/91 "2020-05-18T13:47:22Z")
> [@Johnny\_Bravo](#): > > - Language constantly evolves. Right now, here in 2020, we are Brovo, time is spicy. It’s relative to space, and culture, too. When there’s more than two objects, everything is a social construct. It’s 2020, 6770, 5780, 4718, 2773… > **[Current year in varying calendars 2024 | Statista](https://www.statista.com/statistics/1034385/current-year-various-calendars/)** > > Today, the vast majority of the world uses what is known as the Gregorian calendar, Named after Pope Gregory XIII, who introduced it in 1582. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2020, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fighting-misogyny-but-cunt-and-bitch-are-still-okay-words/853769/92 "2020-05-18T14:22:55Z")
> [@road\_lobo](#): > > Brovo, time is spicy. It’s relative to space, and culture, too. When there’s more than two objects, everything is a social construct. > > It’s 2020, 6770, 5780, 4718, 2773… > > [Current year in varying calendars 2024 | Statista](https://www.statista.com/statistics/1034385/current-year-various-calendars/) wat? ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2020, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fighting-misogyny-but-cunt-and-bitch-are-still-okay-words/853769/93 "2020-05-18T19:39:42Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > I’m not using the SDMB as the metric for that determination, I’m using the opinions of women I know in real life about how problematic those words are. Sounds reasonable, while the current criteria for moderation last. > [@madmonk28](#): > > This thread makes it clear why we need women on the moderation team. Indeed. And I must agree that “wait until we do not need to retrain” is not necessarily the best approach, considering that this has been a recurring issue for quite a while and I don’t see it going away any time soon. > [@Johnny\_Bravo](#): > > Language constantly evolves. Right now, here in 2020, we are in the middle of a pretty heavy shift in the way we use language to describe other genders, other races, other religions. A lot of stuff is in flux and some words may be ‘spicy’ in one part of the world and vile somewhere else. > > But the attempt to create glossaries of anathema words is a disingenuous way of fighting natural linguistic change, because it sets up these meaningless little battles about whether one insult is " qualitatively different" than another insult. > > Our rules around here are not opaque. Don’t be a jerk. If you’re being a jerk, you’ll be told and will be given the opportunity to stop being a jerk. If you continue to be a jerk, you’ll be asked to go be a jerk somewhere else. And since moderating is done by human beings with human foibles using standards created by human being with human foibles, it will never, never, ever be done with anything approaching parity. > > If you’re writing a post and think, hmm, maybe this post will make me sound like a jerk even though I’m not directly insulting another poster, maybe go ahead and rewrite the post. Maybe find a way to say what you want to say without using words that skirt the not-very-fine line between polite language and being an asshole. > > If you find yourself absolutely incapable of having that little mental conversation with yourself, I guess keep doing what you’re doing and accept that you’ll eventually get banned. Well stated. It’s not simply “don’t say _wordX_”, it’s “ask yourself: do you HAVE to say _wordX_? _why_ are you inclined to say _wordX_? is there a better way to say what you feel?” ---
**Author:** ![engineer\_comp\_geek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/engineer_comp_geek/32/504_2.png) [@engineer\_comp\_geek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/engineer_comp_geek)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2020, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fighting-misogyny-but-cunt-and-bitch-are-still-okay-words/853769/94 "2020-05-18T19:54:41Z")
**Moderator Note** > [@road\_lobo](#): > > Brovo, time is spicy. It’s relative to space, and culture, too. When there’s more than two objects, everything is a social construct. > > It’s 2020, 6770, 5780, 4718, 2773… > > [Current year in varying calendars 2024 | Statista](https://www.statista.com/statistics/1034385/current-year-various-calendars/) While this is technically correct, this is a U.S. based message board, and while we have members from all over the world, when someone says “here in 2020” everyone is well aware of exactly what that means and what calendar system it refers to. This sort of pedantry is completely irrelevant to the topic being discussed, and given that there is no confusion at all regarding the date mentioned and the meaning expressed, serves absolutely no purpose. Do not do this again in ATMB. ---
**Author:** ![Cartooniverse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cartooniverse/32/3084_2.png) [@Cartooniverse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cartooniverse)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2020, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fighting-misogyny-but-cunt-and-bitch-are-still-okay-words/853769/95 "2020-05-19T17:50:39Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > And what about sirens?!? Won’t someone think of the sirens! > > 😛 As a retired E.M.T., I find it offensive that I’m compelled to use the phrase " Aural Attenuated Amplified Alert ", or AAAA, instead of good ole Siren. Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk ---
**Author:** ![Cartooniverse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cartooniverse/32/3084_2.png) [@Cartooniverse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cartooniverse)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2020, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fighting-misogyny-but-cunt-and-bitch-are-still-okay-words/853769/96 "2020-05-19T17:58:29Z")
> [@road\_lobo](#): > > Brovo, time is spicy. It’s relative to space, and culture, too. When there’s more than two objects, everything is a social construct. > > It’s 2020, 6770, 5780, 4718, 2773… > > [Current year in varying calendars 2024 | Statista](https://www.statista.com/statistics/1034385/current-year-various-calendars/) I like it!!! This Board could do with a bit more free verse. 😃 Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2020, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fighting-misogyny-but-cunt-and-bitch-are-still-okay-words/853769/97 "2020-05-19T20:16:37Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Well, you just quoted the reason, but to recapitulate, I don’t think those words are collective insults the way racial slurs are. You’d be wrong - in particular about the c-word - but I tried to make that point fifteen years ago and got the same “it isn’t as bad” answer. It hasn’t gotten better over the past decade and a half. And we wonder why so many of our female posters don’t stick. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2020, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fighting-misogyny-but-cunt-and-bitch-are-still-okay-words/853769/98 "2020-05-19T20:42:43Z")
> [@Dangerosa](#): > > You’d be wrong - in particular about the c-word - but I tried to make that point fifteen years ago and got the same “it isn’t as bad” answer. It hasn’t gotten better over the past decade and a half. > > And we wonder why so many of our female posters don’t stick. It comes down to some posters just want to use the word without having to feel bad about their behavior. ---
**Author:** ![Amara\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/7993a0/32.png) [@Amara\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amara_1)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2020, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fighting-misogyny-but-cunt-and-bitch-are-still-okay-words/853769/99 "2020-05-19T20:43:23Z")
> [@Dangerosa](#): > > You’d be wrong - in particular about the c-word - but I tried to make that point fifteen years ago and got the same “it isn’t as bad” answer. It hasn’t gotten better over the past decade and a half. > > And we wonder why so many of our female posters don’t stick. Agree 100% on the c-word. It’s an ugly, ugly word and, IMHO, should be treated the same as other slurs. Bitch is a different word that I could see argued, in good faith, both ways. The problem is, as always, that the moderators are not being seen as having “good faith” by being dismissive and condescending for years. So cunt and bitches = AOK Women on the mod team - Woah Nelly! Let’s not get carried away. We should pace ourselves on this one. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2020, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fighting-misogyny-but-cunt-and-bitch-are-still-okay-words/853769/100 "2020-05-20T18:53:14Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > In the Pit, calling a female public figure a “cunt” and a “bitch” is just “bad language”, and [you’re an asshole if you make a fuss abouth it](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=22267811&postcount=82). So saith **Colibri** (not in official mod capacity, of course). > > But as far as I know, the hate speech restriction isn’t lifted for the Pit. I’m pretty sure if you use the N-- word to describe an African-American public figure, not a member of the Boards, there would be a swift correction, even if it is in the Pit. And well there should. That’s not just “bad language”. It has been mentioned before but the incidence and effect of curse words vary by region. For example [some 2013-2014 data collected from Twitter](https://gawker.com/do-you-live-in-a-bitch-or-a-fuck-state-american-cu-1718259899) suggests cunt is the second most popular invective in the state of Maine. I take the view that no mere word should be so verboten as to be considered hate speech in all contexts. I also think you misread **Colibri** ’s post. He said (in the Pit) “Hijacking a Pit thread over bad language makes you look like a complete asshole.” He did not say hijacking a pit thread over hate speech makes you look like a complete asshole. Your proof by contradiction only makes sense when we start from the premise that **Siam Sam** ’s remarks constitute misogyny and therefore hate speech. I don’t think calling Carolyn Goodman a “stupid bitch” or “stupid cunt” amounts to misogyny. If it helps you understand, my working definition of misogyny is hatred of women because they are women. Hating one woman because “she is a bitch” would not necessarily be misogyny. “I hate all women because all women are bitches” would be misogyny. **Siam Sam** ’s language can reasonably be interpreted as an expression of his hatred of Carolyn Goodman, but I fail to see a reason to assume he hates her because she is a woman as opposed to her actions as mayor of Las Vegas. Neither do I consider all hateful speech to be hate speech. I say hate speech has to show hatred because of some protected trait, for example on the basis of sex, gender, race, etc. If you hate a black man because he punched your wife, that hatred is not racist. It is not hate speech to verbalize that hatred, in my opinion, not even if you use slurs, so long as it is clear that you are disparaging the single man and not the whole class of people. If you hate the mayor of Las Vegas because she wants to reopen the city in the midst of an epidemic, then in my opinion it is not necessarily hate speech to verbalize your hatred of her. Not even if you use words like “bitch” or “cunt”. ~Max [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fighting-misogyny-but-cunt-and-bitch-are-still-okay-words/853769.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fighting-misogyny-but-cunt-and-bitch-are-still-okay-words/853769.md?page=6)