# Fighting misogyny - but "cunt" and "bitch" are still okay words **URL:** \ **Category:** About This Message Board\ **Created:** [May 14, 2020, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fighting-misogyny-but-cunt-and-bitch-are-still-okay-words/853769 "2020-05-14T04:16:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2020, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fighting-misogyny-but-cunt-and-bitch-are-still-okay-words/853769/101 "2020-05-20T19:08:56Z")
> [@Ukulele\_Ike](#): > > Hey, wait…mermaids are _sexy._ > > At least until they drag you down under the waves and drown your ass. > > [Hark, a vagrant: 123](http://www.harkavagrant.com/index.php?id=123) I have heard “siren” used to describe attractive women as dangerous. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2020, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fighting-misogyny-but-cunt-and-bitch-are-still-okay-words/853769/102 "2020-05-20T21:36:29Z")
> [@Amara\_1](#): > > Agree 100% on the c-word. It’s an ugly, ugly word and, IMHO, should be treated the same as other slurs. > > Bitch is a different word that I could see argued, in good faith, both ways. The problem is, as always, that the moderators are not being seen as having “good faith” by being dismissive and condescending for years. > > So cunt and bitches = AOK > > Women on the mod team - Woah Nelly! Let’s not get carried away. We should pace ourselves on this one. Don’t worry, having women mods is a priority, we just need to fix the board’s software, cure cancer and fix climate change but we’ll get to it one of these days. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2020, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fighting-misogyny-but-cunt-and-bitch-are-still-okay-words/853769/103 "2020-05-20T21:52:28Z")
> [@madmonk28](#): > > This thread makes it clear why we need women on the moderation team. They do. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2020, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fighting-misogyny-but-cunt-and-bitch-are-still-okay-words/853769/104 "2020-05-20T22:06:37Z")
I’m struggling to see what the problem is with getting rid of vocabulary that a significant number of people find highly offensive. It’s an etiquette issue, not a free speech issue. We all modulate the way we express ourselves in different social contexts, and it’s not as though there isn’t perfectly adequate alternative vocabulary without the misogynistic baggage to express anything we might want to say. And it’s not as though anyone is suggesting that inadvertent usage by someone who hadn’t kept up with the rules would mean instaban, it would presumably just start out with mod guidance unless someone was deliberately flouting instructions. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2020, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fighting-misogyny-but-cunt-and-bitch-are-still-okay-words/853769/105 "2020-05-20T22:37:44Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > I’m struggling to see what the problem is with getting rid of vocabulary that a significant number of people find highly offensive. It’s an etiquette issue, not a free speech issue. We all modulate the way we express ourselves in different social contexts, and it’s not as though there isn’t perfectly adequate alternative vocabulary without the misogynistic baggage to express anything we might want to say. > > And it’s not as though anyone is suggesting that inadvertent usage by someone who hadn’t kept up with the rules would mean instaban, it would presumably just start out with mod guidance unless someone was deliberately flouting instructions. They tried to ban “cunt” and the backlash was loud. ☹ And then we’d have to ban “dick” and “prick” and other terms. ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2020, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fighting-misogyny-but-cunt-and-bitch-are-still-okay-words/853769/106 "2020-05-20T23:39:23Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > I don’t think calling Carolyn Goodman a “stupid bitch” or “stupid cunt” amounts to misogyny. If it helps you understand, my working definition of misogyny is hatred of women because they are women. Hating one woman because “she is a bitch” would not necessarily be misogyny. “I hate all women because all women are bitches” would be misogyny. **Siam Sam** ’s language can reasonably be interpreted as an expression of his hatred of Carolyn Goodman, but I fail to see a reason to assume he hates her because she is a woman as opposed to her actions as mayor of Las Vegas. You fail to see the point several posters are trying to make. They are saying that the words “bitch” and “cunt” are descriptors for women simply because they are women, as opposed to any behavior they might have. > [@](#): > > Neither do I consider all hateful speech to be hate speech. I say hate speech has to show hatred because of some protected trait, for example on the basis of sex, gender, race, etc. If you hate a black man because he punched your wife, that hatred is not racist. It is not hate speech to verbalize that hatred, in my opinion, not even if you use slurs, so long as it is clear that you are disparaging the single man and not the whole class of people. So, yes or no, if a black man punches your wife, calling him a nigger is not hate speech? ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2020, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fighting-misogyny-but-cunt-and-bitch-are-still-okay-words/853769/107 "2020-05-21T01:26:20Z")
> [@Irishman](#): > > So, yes or no, if a black man punches your wife, calling him a nigger is not hate speech? Probably depends on if the husband is black or not. ---
**Author:** ![Modesty\_Blaise](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/77aa72/32.png) [@Modesty\_Blaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Modesty_Blaise)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2020, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fighting-misogyny-but-cunt-and-bitch-are-still-okay-words/853769/108 "2020-05-21T13:32:54Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > I’m struggling to see what the problem is with getting rid of vocabulary that a significant number of people find highly offensive. It’s an etiquette issue, not a free speech issue. We all modulate the way we express ourselves in different social contexts, and it’s not as though there isn’t perfectly adequate alternative vocabulary without the misogynistic baggage to express anything we might want to say. > > And it’s not as though anyone is suggesting that inadvertent usage by someone who hadn’t kept up with the rules would mean instaban, it would presumably just start out with mod guidance unless someone was deliberately flouting instructions. As near as I can tell, the reasons for not wanting to stop using bitch and cunt are the same as the excuses people used when asked to stop using all the other hate words. They \*like \*using the hate words. That’s it. Whatever payoff they get when they call someone a hate word is more important than the feelings of others. The fact that the two worst hate words used against females are considered “not that bad” is very telling. If this were a discussion of any of the other hate words I listed above, well I doubt there would \*be \*a discussion. It’s just a given that those are hate words and that they shouldn’t be used against anyone. The hate words for females? Those just aren’t as bad. Again, I ask why? ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2020, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fighting-misogyny-but-cunt-and-bitch-are-still-okay-words/853769/109 "2020-05-21T15:20:38Z")
> [@Modesty\_Blaise](#): > > The hate words for females? Those just aren’t as bad. Again, I ask why? Because sometimes some people behave badly or are hateful and we use gender based slurs to insult them. As pointed out by **Max S**., to insult an entire gender is wrong. To call out a single person, not wrong. Now, there are certainly exceptions in that racial slurs are always wrong when used to insult or discriminate. Similarly with slurs about sexual orientation. Similarly with disabilities, mental or physical. But when mostly gender based slurs are used to insult an individual, it’s generally not seen as being sexists. Largely because, I think, they are often used interchangeably, and also because they cut across all racial, age, disability, predilection, class categories. Also, because they are instantly recognizable as a perceived character type. Even if the insult is completely unwarranted, the meaning is intuitively conveyed. Which is not to say mutual agreement by all parties is required: -HRC may or may not be a “bitch”. -Melania may or may not be a “feckless cunt”. -Trump may or may not be a “dickhead”. -Steve Miller may or may not be a “cockwomble”. It all depends on your point of view and I’m not sure why calling any of them a gender based slur impugns the entire associated gender. Will some find it offensive? Sure. But in all these examples the offense is leveled at the named object of the insult, and we ought not to be so entrenched in our alliances as to be offended on their behalf to the point of insisting that these words be banned. Now, if your argument is that we ought not use them in SDMB forums outside the Pit, I’m not sure it will accomplish the goals you seek but I’ve no objections if the mods see fit to establish those rules. ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2020, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fighting-misogyny-but-cunt-and-bitch-are-still-okay-words/853769/110 "2020-05-21T15:36:55Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > Because sometimes some people behave badly or are hateful and we use gender based slurs to insult them. Isnt that using hateful speech to fight hateful speech? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2020, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fighting-misogyny-but-cunt-and-bitch-are-still-okay-words/853769/111 "2020-05-21T15:41:21Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > Because sometimes some people behave badly or are hateful and we use gender based slurs to insult them. > > As pointed out by **Max S**., to insult an entire gender is wrong. To call out a single person, not wrong. Now, there are certainly exceptions in that racial slurs are always wrong when used to insult or discriminate. Similarly with slurs about sexual orientation. Similarly with disabilities, mental or physical. But when mostly gender based slurs are used to insult an individual, it’s generally not seen as being sexists. Largely because, I think, they are often used interchangeably, and also because they cut across all racial, age, disability, predilection, class categories. Also, because they are instantly recognizable as a perceived character type. > > Even if the insult is completely unwarranted, the meaning is intuitively conveyed. Which is not to say mutual agreement by all parties is required: > -HRC may or may not be a “bitch”. > -Melania may or may not be a “feckless cunt”. > -Trump may or may not be a “dickhead”. > -Steve Miller may or may not be a “cockwomble”. > It all depends on your point of view and I’m not sure why calling any of them a gender based slur impugns the entire associated gender. Will some find it offensive? Sure. But in all these examples the offense is leveled at the named object of the insult, and we ought not to be so entrenched in our alliances as to be offended on their behalf to the point of insisting that these words be banned. > > Now, if your argument is that we ought not use them in SDMB forums outside the Pit, I’m not sure it will accomplish the goals you seek but I’ve no objections if the mods see fit to establish those rules. I think this is just rationalization. I don’t see any functional difference between ethnic/racial and gender slurs, and I think they should all be abolished from the language of decent folks. I can’t see how your argument applies separately to gendered vs racial/ethnic slurs. If racial/ethnic slurs aren’t okay, ever, then that’s true for gendered slurs too. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2020, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fighting-misogyny-but-cunt-and-bitch-are-still-okay-words/853769/112 "2020-05-21T15:42:55Z")
I think that the SDMB has a real problem with misogyny and that the casual and frequent use of sexist hate speech feeds the problem. If we want to address the problem of misogyny here, then we have to change behaviors and that means changing what we write as that is the only behavior we engage in here. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2020, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fighting-misogyny-but-cunt-and-bitch-are-still-okay-words/853769/113 "2020-05-21T15:43:41Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > Because sometimes some people behave badly or are hateful and we use gender based slurs to insult them. Okay. But if you are told that a side effect of that is to create a hostile environment in the community for a large number of people, is that a price worth paying? Is your vocabulary so limited that you really can’t find any other way to express your opinion with less collateral damage? Also, if a black person behaved badly, you say you would not use a race-based slur against them. But you failed to explain why the situation is not directly analogous. Is your opinion that women are not, in a similar way, a class of people who have historically been victims of prejudice? ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2020, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fighting-misogyny-but-cunt-and-bitch-are-still-okay-words/853769/114 "2020-05-21T16:07:20Z")
> [@Irishman](#): > > You fail to see the point several posters are trying to make. They are saying that the words “bitch” and “cunt” are descriptors for women simply because they are women, as opposed to any behavior they might have. I fail to see the relevance of that point. Are you implying that gender-specific insults should be off-limits because gender-specific insults are hate speech? That it is the gender-specific quality of a curse word which puts it past a bright line? I don’t agree, but I would be interested in hearing the argument supporting that premise. > [@Irishman](#): > > So, yes or no, if a black man punches your wife, calling him a nigger is not hate speech? It’s a complicated question but I’m going to say no, calling a black man who punches your wife a nigger is not hate speech just because you called a black man a nigger. It could be hate speech if you show hatred towards a class of people, but I am of the opinion that the word “nigger” alone does not do so. Not even when used as an insult or ethnic slur. I’m probably on my own with that opinion, but hey, I read replies with an open mind. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2020, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fighting-misogyny-but-cunt-and-bitch-are-still-okay-words/853769/115 "2020-05-21T16:11:38Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I think this is just rationalization. I don’t see any functional difference between ethnic/racial and gender slurs, and I think they should all be abolished from the language of decent folks. I can’t see how your argument applies separately to gendered vs racial/ethnic slurs. > > If racial/ethnic slurs aren’t okay, ever, then that’s true for gendered slurs too. That’s where we disagree, if it wasn’t made clear by my last post. I don’t think racial/ethnic/gendered slurs are “okay”, but I don’t think they are hate speech by virtue of being a racial/ethnic/gendered slur. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2020, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fighting-misogyny-but-cunt-and-bitch-are-still-okay-words/853769/116 "2020-05-21T16:25:43Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > Okay. But if you are told that a side effect of that is to create a hostile environment in the community for a large number of people, is that a price worth paying? I always thought the Pit _was_ the hostile environment in the community so the rest stays clean. You know, “take it to the Pit”? > [@Riemann](#): > > Also, if a black person behaved badly, you say you would not use a race-based slur against them. But you failed to explain why the situation is not directly analogous. Is your opinion that women are not, in a similar way, a class of people who have historically been victims of prejudice? It does seem hypocritical to ban racial slurs by virtue of being offensive to a significant class of people (if that really is the rule), then allowing gendered slurs which are offensive to a significant class of people. It might be resolved if words like “cunt” and “bitch” aren’t as offensive as slurs like “nigger”. I don’t know about “cunt”, that one is pretty offensive… ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2020, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fighting-misogyny-but-cunt-and-bitch-are-still-okay-words/853769/117 "2020-05-21T16:26:54Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > It’s a complicated question but I’m going to say no, calling a black man who punches your wife a nigger is not hate speech just because you called a black man a nigger. It could be hate speech if you show hatred towards a class of people, but I am of the opinion that the word “nigger” alone does not do so. Not even when used as an insult or ethnic slur. Are you for real? It’s quite mindboggling that this needs to be explained, but obviously that word does not mean “bad person” in any direct sense, it does not speak to the qualities of the individual. It is a word that describes an entire class of people, carrying the baggage of demeaning their qualities as a class (and worse, a subtext of justifying historical oppression). Can you really not see the difference between: (1) “You are a bad person” (2) “You are a member of a specified subhuman class of people all of whom have bad qualities” And that the fact that (2) may be directed toward a specific individual does not alter the fact that it’s commentary on _all_ people in that class. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2020, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fighting-misogyny-but-cunt-and-bitch-are-still-okay-words/853769/118 "2020-05-21T16:37:08Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > That’s where we disagree, if it wasn’t made clear by my last post. I don’t think racial/ethnic/gendered slurs are “okay”, but I don’t think they are hate speech by virtue of being a racial/ethnic/gendered slur. These slurs carry decades and sometimes centuries of oppression, sometimes including torture, rape, and mass murder, with them. It’s impossible to separate the history from these slurs. When I hear anti-Jewish slurs, I hear the same motivations and intentions held by the Nazis when they murdered some of my extended family. It’s meant, and heard, as a reminder that my people can be expelled or killed at any time, for any reason, and with no repercussions. The black people in my family and friends have said very similar things about anti-black slurs – that these slurs are meant and heard as a reminder that they aren’t considered human and can be tortured, raped, separated from their families, and killed out of hand, at any time and for any reason, with no repercussions. In my understanding, when many or most women hear gender slurs like slut, whore, bitch, etc., they hear reminders that their bodies are not their own, that they are meant to serve men, and can be used and abused by men at any time and for any reason with no repercussions. It doesn’t matter WRT this discussion that things are better now – they’re far from where they should be. And the widespread usage and acceptance of these slurs is a small but still real part of what’s holding us back as a society – it’s a continual reminder, not just to women, but just as critically _to children, boys, and young men, who are still learning about how society works and appropriate ways of communicating and interacting_, that women aren’t treated as fully human adults who own the entirety of their own bodies. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2020, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fighting-misogyny-but-cunt-and-bitch-are-still-okay-words/853769/119 "2020-05-21T16:39:58Z")
> [@madsircool](#): > > Isnt that using hateful speech to fight hateful speech? Anybody have any objection to the use of, “Nazi cunts”, or “Fascist dicks”? Seems to me there exists generally acceptable, even approved, use. ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2020, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fighting-misogyny-but-cunt-and-bitch-are-still-okay-words/853769/120 "2020-05-21T16:45:59Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > Anybody have any objection to the use of, “Nazi cunts”, or “Fascist dicks”? > Seems to me there exists generally acceptable, even approved, use. Only if you are describing [Irma Grese](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irma_Grese) or Mussolini. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fighting-misogyny-but-cunt-and-bitch-are-still-okay-words/853769.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fighting-misogyny-but-cunt-and-bitch-are-still-okay-words/853769.md?page=7)