# Fighting misogyny - but "cunt" and "bitch" are still okay words **URL:** \ **Category:** About This Message Board\ **Created:** [May 14, 2020, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fighting-misogyny-but-cunt-and-bitch-are-still-okay-words/853769 "2020-05-14T04:16:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2020, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fighting-misogyny-but-cunt-and-bitch-are-still-okay-words/853769/121 "2020-05-21T16:47:02Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > Are you for real? It’s quite mindboggling that this needs to be explained, but obviously that word does not mean “bad person” in any direct sense, it does not speak to the qualities of the individual. It is a word that describes an entire class of people, carrying the baggage of demeaning their qualities as a class (and worse, a subtext of justifying historical oppression). > > Can you really not see the difference between: > (1) “You are a bad person” > (2) “You are a member of a specified subhuman class of people all of whom have bad qualities” > > And that the fact that (2) may be directed toward a specific individual does not alter the fact that it’s commentary on _all_ people in that class. Can not the word mean, “you are lesser than me”? When I hear someone call a black person as a “nigger” it does not imply that all black people are lesser than the speaker. In some contexts the word can be used to imply that all black people are lesser beings, which would be hate speech, but not all insulting uses of “nigger” imply that all black people are “niggers”. The same goes for “bitch”. As an insult, it does not necessarily mean all women are mean or overbearing, although it can be used in such a way (“they’re all bitches”). ~Max ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2020, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fighting-misogyny-but-cunt-and-bitch-are-still-okay-words/853769/122 "2020-05-21T16:47:30Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I think this is just rationalization. I don’t see any functional difference between ethnic/racial and gender slurs, and I think they should all be abolished from the language of decent folks. I can’t see how your argument applies separately to gendered vs racial/ethnic slurs. > > If racial/ethnic slurs aren’t okay, ever, then that’s true for gendered slurs too. I agree with you to the extent that it is “just rationalization”. But I disagree to the extent that you consider it meaningless rationalization. Mostly because, as can be demonstrated, these insults are often used in a gender agnostic way, e.g.: “Pierce Morgan is a cunt”. Is anybody confused about his gender or who the insult is aimed at what what it conveys? ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2020, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fighting-misogyny-but-cunt-and-bitch-are-still-okay-words/853769/123 "2020-05-21T16:49:26Z")
> [@madsircool](#): > > Only if you are describing [Irma Grese](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irma_Grese) or Mussolini. Say that I am. Is it okay in this case? ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2020, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fighting-misogyny-but-cunt-and-bitch-are-still-okay-words/853769/124 "2020-05-21T16:55:40Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > These slurs carry decades and sometimes centuries of oppression, sometimes including torture, rape, and mass murder, with them. It’s impossible to separate the history from these slurs. When I hear anti-Jewish slurs, I hear the same motivations and intentions held by the Nazis when they murdered some of my extended family. It’s meant, and heard, as a reminder that my people can be expelled or killed at any time, for any reason, and with no repercussions. The black people in my family and friends have said very similar things about anti-black slurs – that these slurs are meant and heard as a reminder that they aren’t considered human and can be tortured, raped, separated from their families, and killed out of hand, at any time and for any reason, with no repercussions. > > In my understanding, when many or most women hear gender slurs like slut, whore, bitch, etc., they hear reminders that their bodies are not their own, that they are meant to serve men, and can be used and abused by men at any time and for any reason with no repercussions. > > It doesn’t matter WRT this discussion that things are better now – they’re far from where they should be. And the widespread usage and acceptance of these slurs is a small but still real part of what’s holding us back as a society – it’s a continual reminder, not just to women, but just as critically _to children, boys, and young men, who are still learning about how society works and appropriate ways of communicating and interacting_, that women aren’t treated as fully human adults who own the entirety of their own bodies. I agree that the words are offensive. We are talking about _curse_ or _swear_ words here. If you are arguing that we should teach children not to curse, I agree with you. There really isn’t a pressing need to use such hateful words. Doing so is bound to offend someone, which is impolite and hurts feelings. I imagine most people will agree. But the million dollar question is, why shouldn’t these highly offensive words be allowed in the Pit, that place where you go when you want to read/write a profanity laced, no-holds-barred rant? ~Max ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2020, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fighting-misogyny-but-cunt-and-bitch-are-still-okay-words/853769/125 "2020-05-21T16:59:38Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > Say that I am. Is it okay in this case? Interesting. Those two individuals were two of the worst in history. Grese was hung for crimes against humanity and Mussolini lead his country into a brutal war and was executed by his own countrymen. For the worst of the worst I agree. But for a modern Western politician or a celebrity or another poster here Im not so sure. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2020, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fighting-misogyny-but-cunt-and-bitch-are-still-okay-words/853769/126 "2020-05-21T17:00:09Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > Can not the word mean, “you are lesser than me”? When I hear someone call a black person as a “nigger” it does not imply that all black people are lesser than the speaker. In some contexts the word can be used to imply that all black people are lesser beings, which would be hate speech, but not all insulting uses of “nigger” imply that all black people are “niggers”. No. You are objectively incorrect in your understanding of the semantic content of the word. It inherently asserts the negative qualities of an entire class of people, carrying with it an immense subtext of historical oppression, and disparages an individual _only by assigning them to that class_. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2020, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fighting-misogyny-but-cunt-and-bitch-are-still-okay-words/853769/127 "2020-05-21T17:02:44Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > But the million dollar question is, why shouldn’t these highly offensive words be allowed in the Pit, that place where you go when you want to read/write a profanity laced, no-holds-barred rant? > > ~Max Because our community (or a large segment of it) would like to draw a line. Words that are particularly offensive to women or African Americans, for example, cross that line. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2020, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fighting-misogyny-but-cunt-and-bitch-are-still-okay-words/853769/128 "2020-05-21T17:12:21Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > But the million dollar question is, why shouldn’t these highly offensive words be allowed in the Pit, that place where you go when you want to read/write a profanity laced, no-holds-barred rant? Obviously because we want the Pit to be a place where we are free to rant at specific individuals for what they say or do, but not where we are free to express hateful bigotry toward entire classes of people. Are you claiming that insufficient vocabulary exists in the English language to achieve the former without the collateral damage of the latter? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2020, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fighting-misogyny-but-cunt-and-bitch-are-still-okay-words/853769/129 "2020-05-21T17:13:14Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > I agree with you to the extent that it is “just rationalization”. But I disagree to the extent that you consider it meaningless rationalization. Mostly because, as can be demonstrated, these insults are often used in a gender agnostic way, e.g.: > > “Pierce Morgan is a cunt”. > > Is anybody confused about his gender or who the insult is aimed at what what it conveys? Probably not… but would you call him an ethnic slur? If not, why not? Might be different in British English, but in American English, I think “cunt” is to women as “kike” is to Jews (among many other examples). ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2020, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fighting-misogyny-but-cunt-and-bitch-are-still-okay-words/853769/130 "2020-05-21T17:14:46Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > I agree that the words are offensive. We are talking about _curse_ or _swear_ words here. If you are arguing that we should teach children not to curse, I agree with you. There really isn’t a pressing need to use such hateful words. Doing so is bound to offend someone, which is impolite and hurts feelings. I imagine most people will agree. > > But the million dollar question is, why shouldn’t these highly offensive words be allowed in the Pit, that place where you go when you want to read/write a profanity laced, no-holds-barred rant? Because we have limits even in the Pit – they’re much less strict than the rest of the board, but they’re still there. I think it’s appropriate that hateful slurs be on the disallowed side of those limits, to demonstrate that gender/ethnic/racial/etc. hatefulness is beyond the pale on this board, period. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2020, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fighting-misogyny-but-cunt-and-bitch-are-still-okay-words/853769/131 "2020-05-21T17:17:10Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Might be different in British English, but in American English, I think “cunt” is to women as “kike” is to Jews (among many other examples). In my experience in the U.S., “cunt” is _much_ worse than “kike.” Although both should be off limits here. IMO. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2020, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fighting-misogyny-but-cunt-and-bitch-are-still-okay-words/853769/132 "2020-05-21T17:18:05Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > Okay. But if you are told that a side effect of that is to create a hostile environment in the community for a large number of people, is that a price worth paying? Is your vocabulary so limited that you really can’t find any other way to express your opinion with less collateral damage? > > Also, if a black person behaved badly, you say you would not use a race-based slur against them. But you failed to explain why the situation is not directly analogous. Is your opinion that women are not, in a similar way, a class of people who have historically been victims of prejudice? The question about my vocabulary notwithstanding, I do not dismiss your argument, or the one made by\*\* iiandyiiii\*\*. I have to weigh the claimed impact of certain speech and the perceived injury, by what I consider to be essentially nothing more than colorful phrase, the way in which it is used and by whom, all in context of my personal experience and interactions with various people in my life. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2020, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fighting-misogyny-but-cunt-and-bitch-are-still-okay-words/853769/133 "2020-05-21T17:19:22Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Probably not… but would you call him an ethnic slur? If not, why not? > > Might be different in British English, but in American English, I think “cunt” is to women as “kike” is to Jews (among many other examples). Seems to me that women or Jews would be in a better position to relate how they feel about those words and their relationship to each other than a white guy. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2020, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fighting-misogyny-but-cunt-and-bitch-are-still-okay-words/853769/134 "2020-05-21T17:20:22Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Seems to me that women or Jews would be in a better position to relate how they feel about those words and their relationship to each other than a white guy. I am a Jew, by the way. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2020, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fighting-misogyny-but-cunt-and-bitch-are-still-okay-words/853769/135 "2020-05-21T17:21:15Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > …Might be different in British English… This is an oft-toted red herring. I’m a Brit. It has a much larger _range_ of meaning, and _can_ be used informally between men as mildly as a term of endearment. But when used toward a female, the range of meaning encompasses the severity of U.S. usage. Many (most?) Brits know that it’s a much more problematic word in U.S. culture, and would have little problem adapting to U.S. cultural norms on a majority-U.S. board. It’s not as though the same word is used in the U.K. to mean “pumpkin”. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2020, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fighting-misogyny-but-cunt-and-bitch-are-still-okay-words/853769/136 "2020-05-21T17:23:09Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I am a Jew, by the way. Great, that’s one half of the equation. Now, how about some evidence that a majority of women feel the same way about “cunt” as you do about “kike”? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2020, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fighting-misogyny-but-cunt-and-bitch-are-still-okay-words/853769/137 "2020-05-21T17:23:57Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Great, that’s one half of the equation. > > Now, how about some evidence that a majority of women feel the same way about “cunt” as you do about “kike”? I said “I think”, based on my own conversations and experiences with others – I’m happy to hear from others. Especially any Jewish women Dopers. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2020, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fighting-misogyny-but-cunt-and-bitch-are-still-okay-words/853769/138 "2020-05-21T17:24:49Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I said “I think”, based on my own conversations and experiences with others – I’m happy to hear from others. Especially any Jewish women Dopers. I too would be happy to hear from any such Dopers. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2020, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fighting-misogyny-but-cunt-and-bitch-are-still-okay-words/853769/139 "2020-05-21T17:26:42Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Probably not… but would you call him an ethnic slur? If not, why not? > > Might be different in British English, but in American English, I think “cunt” is to women as “kike” is to Jews (among many other examples). As I’ve already clearly said, ethnic, disability, sexual identity, misogynistic slurs are a line not to be crossed for any reason. My argument is that the words I’m talking about don’t neatly fall into the above categories. And while there remains, I think, a time and place for them on the SDMB community, I’m not arguing for imposing no limits. I am questioning whether they need to be removed entirely and why. ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2020, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fighting-misogyny-but-cunt-and-bitch-are-still-okay-words/853769/140 "2020-05-21T17:34:18Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I said “I think”, based on my own conversations and experiences with others – I’m happy to hear from others. Especially any Jewish women Dopers. FWIW, they’re both pretty awful, but to me kike is categorically worse. Most of my family was slaughtered under the ideas that kike represents. I think I’ve been more de-sensitized to cunt, especially with the colloquial usage in the UK. There are no circumstances that kike is used with affection. Cunt is extremely nasty. Kike is unvarnished hate. For me, at least. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fighting-misogyny-but-cunt-and-bitch-are-still-okay-words/853769.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fighting-misogyny-but-cunt-and-bitch-are-still-okay-words/853769.md?page=8)