# Fighting misogyny - but "cunt" and "bitch" are still okay words **URL:** \ **Category:** About This Message Board\ **Created:** [May 14, 2020, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fighting-misogyny-but-cunt-and-bitch-are-still-okay-words/853769 "2020-05-14T04:16:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2020, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fighting-misogyny-but-cunt-and-bitch-are-still-okay-words/853769/161 "2020-05-21T19:27:04Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I think that’s really it – it’s background sexism. Most people who aren’t denigrated by it don’t even notice it (even many who are may not notice it). Like the background racism of the 40s and 50s (and some of it still today). Most white people just won’t notice the little ways that black people are denigrated by society. And most men won’t notice the little ways that women are denigrated by society. I think this is one of those ways. Or sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2020, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fighting-misogyny-but-cunt-and-bitch-are-still-okay-words/853769/162 "2020-05-21T19:29:31Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > Or sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. Maybe. Maybe not. I’m not a woman, so I have no more innate understanding of this than you. But perhaps you could ask some women, on this board or elsewhere, who you believe have a very good grasp of how women are treated in the world, and perhaps their opinion would be more convincing than internet strangers. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2020, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fighting-misogyny-but-cunt-and-bitch-are-still-okay-words/853769/163 "2020-05-21T19:44:57Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > When Ricky Jervais calls neighbourhood kids, “Little Hampstead cunts”, do you also insist on the latter interpretation? I don’t “insist” on anything, because that’s not how language works. You’re the one attempting to insist that words do not carry the semantic baggage that they objectively do. The meaning of words derives from consensus social norms, which are somewhat different in the U.K. with respect to this word (although as I’ve said upthread, not _so_ different that most British people would have any difficulty adapting to U.S. norms). In the U.S., describing Roy Moore (or anyone else) as a cunt carries misogynistic baggage. (Fwiw, Ricky Gervais certainly understands this, and if he chooses to flout the taboo to a U.S. audience he is aware of what he is doing.) ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2020, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fighting-misogyny-but-cunt-and-bitch-are-still-okay-words/853769/164 "2020-05-21T19:52:51Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > Or sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. How on earth is this an apt analogy? If the word “cunt” is used as an insult, it does not _have_ any purely literal meaning that makes any logical sense as insult. Without the sexist cultural baggage, it makes no more sense than calling somebody a pancreas. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2020, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fighting-misogyny-but-cunt-and-bitch-are-still-okay-words/853769/165 "2020-05-21T20:05:32Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Maybe. Maybe not. I’m not a woman, so I have no more innate understanding of this than you. But perhaps you could ask some women, on this board or elsewhere, who you believe have a very good grasp of how women are treated in the world, and perhaps their opinion would be more convincing than internet strangers. I’ve been around this world a little longer than you, and have known women who find this offensive, and those that do not (as my earlier post suggests). What conclusion can we draw from this informal survey, be it your or mine or **Miller** ’s (up-thread)? Nothing conclusive. IMO. YMMV. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2020, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fighting-misogyny-but-cunt-and-bitch-are-still-okay-words/853769/166 "2020-05-21T20:09:44Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > I don’t “insist” on anything, because that’s not how language works. You’re the one attempting to insist that words do not carry the semantic baggage that they objectively do. The meaning of words derives from consensus social norms, which are somewhat different in the U.K. with respect to this word (although as I’ve said upthread, not _so_ different that most British people would have any difficulty adapting to U.S. norms). In the U.S., describing Roy Moore (or anyone else) as a cunt carries misogynistic baggage. > > (Fwiw, Ricky Gervais certainly understands this, and if he chooses to flout the taboo to a U.S. audience he is aware of what he is doing.) He performs all over the world, including America. But let’s say I accept your claim that he’s a bad example, being from the UK. The late great Joan Rivers used to drop the c-word regularly and pointedly. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2020, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fighting-misogyny-but-cunt-and-bitch-are-still-okay-words/853769/167 "2020-05-21T20:11:20Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > How on earth is this an apt analogy? If the word “cunt” is used as an insult, it does not _have_ any purely literal meaning that makes any logical sense as insult. Without the sexist cultural baggage, it makes no more sense than calling somebody a pancreas. Now you’re just being ridiculous. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2020, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fighting-misogyny-but-cunt-and-bitch-are-still-okay-words/853769/168 "2020-05-21T20:13:47Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > I’ve been around this world a little longer than you, and have known women who find this offensive, and those that do not (as my earlier post suggests). What conclusion can we draw from this informal survey, be it your or mine or **Miller** ’s (up-thread)? > > Nothing conclusive. IMO. YMMV. Is using these words worth the risk that you might be spreading a little bit more of that nastiness into this world? It’s not for me, even if it’s possible that I’m being too cautious. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2020, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fighting-misogyny-but-cunt-and-bitch-are-still-okay-words/853769/169 "2020-05-21T20:18:41Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Maybe. Maybe not. I’m not a woman, so I have no more innate understanding of this than you. But perhaps you could ask some women, on this board or elsewhere, who you believe have a very good grasp of how women are treated in the world, and perhaps their opinion would be more convincing than internet strangers. > [@QuickSilver](#): > > I’ve been around this world a little longer than you, and have known women who find this offensive, and those that do not (as my earlier post suggests). What conclusion can we draw from this informal survey, be it your or mine or **Miller** ’s (up-thread)? > > Nothing conclusive. IMO. YMMV. Oh, and because I missed the edit window, want to add… Don’t move the goal posts. We’re not talking about the treatment of women around the world and nobody, least of all me, is contesting that misogyny is a problem. We’re talking about the use of a specific word. Because it seems we’ve pretty much settled on that. The word isn’t “slut” or “whore”, which attempt to judge and shame women’s sexuality and autonomy over their bodies. So far, it’s the word “cunt” that seems to be the focus of discussion and objection. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2020, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fighting-misogyny-but-cunt-and-bitch-are-still-okay-words/853769/170 "2020-05-21T20:27:05Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Is using these words worth the risk that you might be spreading a little bit more of that nastiness into this world? It’s not for me, even if it’s possible that I’m being too cautious. It’s okay if we don’t see things the same way. We’re just talking here. Evaluating and weighing the pros and cons. I’ve probably been a bit too liberal with it’s use in a post or three. I can tone it down. Can you see your way to not viewing it exclusively through the lens of misogyny? ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2020, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fighting-misogyny-but-cunt-and-bitch-are-still-okay-words/853769/171 "2020-05-21T20:29:29Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Is using these words worth the risk that you might be spreading a little bit more of that nastiness into this world? This is a fairly decent question. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2020, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fighting-misogyny-but-cunt-and-bitch-are-still-okay-words/853769/172 "2020-05-21T20:36:54Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > It’s okay if we don’t see things the same way. We’re just talking here. Evaluating and weighing the pros and cons. I’ve probably been a bit too liberal with it’s use in a post or three. I can tone it down. Can you see your way to not viewing it exclusively through the lens of misogyny? Of course – just talking. No big deal. I don’t think you’re a bad guy – just laying out my view on it. But the “lens of misogyny” is the appropriate lens for gender slurs, IMO. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2020, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fighting-misogyny-but-cunt-and-bitch-are-still-okay-words/853769/173 "2020-05-21T20:43:47Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Of course – just talking. No big deal. I don’t think you’re a bad guy – just laying out my view on it. But the “lens of misogyny” is the appropriate lens for gender slurs, IMO. Okay. We may not finally agree, but I think it was a worthwhile conversation. Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2020, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fighting-misogyny-but-cunt-and-bitch-are-still-okay-words/853769/174 "2020-05-21T20:54:51Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > He performs all over the world, including America. But let’s say I accept your claim that he’s a bad example, being from the UK. The late great Joan Rivers used to drop the c-word regularly and pointedly. I have no idea what your point is. Are you claiming that these are examples that demonstrate cultural norms that are relevant to the choices that this community should make? If so, it seems bizarre that you would choose two comedians whose stock in trade is to be deliberately offensive. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2020, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fighting-misogyny-but-cunt-and-bitch-are-still-okay-words/853769/175 "2020-05-21T21:06:39Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > Now you’re just being ridiculous. How so? The expression “a cigar is just a cigar” applies to something that has perfectly logical literal meaning, and also a secondary metaphorical meaning. How does that pattern apply to the use of the word “cunt” as a slur? ---
**Author:** ![Sunny\_Daze](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunny_daze/32/438_2.png) [@Sunny\_Daze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunny_Daze)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2020, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fighting-misogyny-but-cunt-and-bitch-are-still-okay-words/853769/176 "2020-05-21T21:07:53Z")
I’ll aver as a woman that bitch and cunt are both sexist slurs, and are both serious insults. I would support a ban. We’ve always said that the laws of the jurisdiction where the Board exists should apply to discussion here. I see no reason at all why other interpretations and usages of the word “cunt” need to be considered. Using it here is very bad and should not be allowed. Yeah, yeah. Some of you aren’t happy. “but we used to”, “but we want to”, and “but mah freedom” are not valid arguments. Things change and we adapt and evolve. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2020, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fighting-misogyny-but-cunt-and-bitch-are-still-okay-words/853769/177 "2020-05-21T21:07:57Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > Okay. We may not finally agree, but I think it was a worthwhile conversation. Thanks. does this mean you guys will or will not be getting a room? ---
**Author:** ![What\_the](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f4b2a3/32.png) [@What\_the](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_the)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2020, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fighting-misogyny-but-cunt-and-bitch-are-still-okay-words/853769/178 "2020-05-21T21:18:23Z")
Can I get some examples of posts that are misogynistic … whether it depends on the context or a clear case regardless of context. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2020, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fighting-misogyny-but-cunt-and-bitch-are-still-okay-words/853769/179 "2020-05-21T21:37:31Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > I’ve been around this world a little longer than you, and have known women who find this offensive, and those that do not (as my earlier post suggests). What conclusion can we draw from this informal survey, be it your or mine or **Miller** ’s (up-thread)? > > Nothing conclusive. IMO. YMMV. Why won’t you accept the opinion of the women posting in this thread? ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2020, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fighting-misogyny-but-cunt-and-bitch-are-still-okay-words/853769/180 "2020-05-21T22:32:24Z")
On an incidental point, I would not think that anyone has any problem with the use of “bitch” as a verb, as in to bitch and moan about something? My sense is that this usage has drifted away from misogynistic connotations. Or am I mistaken in that? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fighting-misogyny-but-cunt-and-bitch-are-still-okay-words/853769.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fighting-misogyny-but-cunt-and-bitch-are-still-okay-words/853769.md?page=10)