# Fighting to the last man **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [May 3, 2002, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fighting-to-the-last-man/106980 "2002-05-03T01:51:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![toadspittle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c0e974/32.png) [@toadspittle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/toadspittle)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2002, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fighting-to-the-last-man/106980/21 "2002-05-03T18:07:37Z")
The Japanese at Iwo Jima. The Jews in the Warsaw ghetto. (I think…?) ---
**Author:** ![evilhanz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ba8739/32.png) [@evilhanz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/evilhanz)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2002, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fighting-to-the-last-man/106980/22 "2002-05-03T18:07:40Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Sofa King \* > \*\*Once I was drinking in a bar with this guy who said he was in Saigon as it succumbed to the NVA in 1975 … \*\* There should be account of this somewhere, if it’s true. The only contemporary account I can find online from a British perspective is this article: [Clap Hands, Here Comes Charlie](http://212.187.153.33/1970-1979/Story/0,6051,106854,00.html) from May 10, 1975. The British Embassy was closed on April 23, 1975, a week before the last flights and about 5 days before the city came under direct NVA attack. Here’s a [personal account](http://www.msnbc.com/news/393502.asp) from Ret. Col James Kean, one of the last 11 Marines on the emabssy rooftop in Saigon. I’m not saying it didn’t happen, but why isn’t it mentioned anywhere, not even in the regimental histories? 51st Highlanders fighting to the last man for a hopeless cause is something they would be proud of, right? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2002, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fighting-to-the-last-man/106980/23 "2002-05-03T18:21:10Z")
> [@](#): > > Gordon at Khartoum? Gordon was expecting a relief column. (It actually arrived while the bodies of his defenders were still warm.) ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2002, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fighting-to-the-last-man/106980/24 "2002-05-03T19:00:32Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by evilhanz \* > \*\*The battle at Islandwana during the Zulu War (Brits/Zulu) > \*\* Although almost the entire British force of 1,700 was killed at Isandhlwana, there were a few survivors, some of whom reached Rorke’s Drift and gave warning of the impending attack. Like Custer’s Last Stand, Isandhlwana was a muck-up rather than a decision to stand and fight. > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Cisco_ > Didn’t like 3 Spaniards once wipe out something like 1,000 mexican natives (Incans?)? I can’t remember the exact incident but I know it was quite an impressive fight. You may be thinking of the battle of Cajamarca, in which several hundred Spanish soldiers under Pizarro supposedly killed up to 30,000 Incas. ---
**Author:** ![Sofa\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/58956e/32.png) [@Sofa\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sofa_King)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2002, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fighting-to-the-last-man/106980/25 "2002-05-03T19:16:44Z")
Thanks for the links, **evilhanz**. As to why it isn’t mentioned, well, that’s what I’ve been trying to find out, off and on, for the past ten years. All I can think of is that perhaps while Col. Kean was in control of the grounds, there were other troops guarding the surrounding area. I do remember the guy I talked to specifically saying he had to pull his troops back to the embassy for evacuation, and when he did, there were no Brits around to inform. That might have happened the day before, on the 29th. He thinks they must have bought it, but I wonder if they didn’t make their way to the airport or elsewhere. I have some pretty good reasons to suspect that the guy was telling the truth. He told me other stories which I later looked up and confirmed in part. Anyway, if I ever do get a lead on it, I’ll let you guys know. * * * [Seven Roman legions](http://ali.sdc.uwo.ca/splendor4.html) under Crassus were destroyed in their entrirety by Parthian horse-archers in 53 B.C. However, there were ten thousand prisoners taken. The fateful flight of [Torpedo 8](http://www.centurytel.net/midway/Carrier_Squadrons/Torpedo_Eight/in_color.html) at Midway was fatal for all of the forty-five crewmen save one, Ens. George Gay. Several sizeable French units disappeared during the fighting at Verdun, but their fate is largely unknown. The 137th Infantry Regiment appears to have been completely destroyed at the [Bayonet Trench](http://www.worldwar1.com/heritage/bayonet.htm). And just as a note, the “choice” to stay and fight is quite often a result of not being able to flee _or_ surrender. There’s still a lively debate out there about whether or not the Japanese were really so willing to die to a man as they did on so many occasions, because American soldiers were in the habit of not accepting Japanese surrender after repeated false-surrender ruses. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2002, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fighting-to-the-last-man/106980/26 "2002-05-03T19:28:24Z")
The Battle of St. Jacob-en-Birs, 1444. A Swiss force of 1500 vs. 40,000 French in Alsace-Lorraine, forded a river in the face of the French army, attacked and fought their way into the center of the French forces, and fought and died to the man, killing 2,000 French in the process. The French Dauphin ( who had commanded the army ), turned back convinced the Swiss were unconquerable. - Tamerlane ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2002, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fighting-to-the-last-man/106980/27 "2002-05-03T20:09:37Z")
It’s perhaps worth mentioning the “Niños Heroes,” six young cadets who refused to surrender to U.S. troops storming the walls of Chapultepec Castle in Mexico City during the Mexican War (1847) but instead committed suicide by leaping from the walls. However, they were only a small part of the original defending force, some of which managed to retreat. ---
**Author:** ![Tranquilis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tranquilis/32/3639_2.png) [@Tranquilis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tranquilis)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2002, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fighting-to-the-last-man/106980/28 "2002-05-03T21:01:06Z")
I’m surprised the no one has mentioned the Teutoburger Vald disaster of 9 AD, where Legions XVII, XVIII & XIX were lost. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2002, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fighting-to-the-last-man/106980/29 "2002-05-03T22:08:58Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Sofa King \* > And just as a note, the “choice” to stay and fight is quite often a result of not being able to flee _or_ surrender. There’s still a lively debate out there about whether or not the Japanese were really so willing to die to a man as they did on so many occasions, because American soldiers were in the habit of not accepting Japanese surrender after repeated false-surrender ruses. \*\* I was unaware of this being a lively debate. I’ve read several Japanese accounts of WWII, and they never denied their abhorance of capture and willing to go to any means to avoid it. And if I recall correctly, most of the Japanese prisoners taken were either unconscious or otherwise too badly wounded to offer resistance. The Japanese goverment officially sanction it with the _kamikaze_ squadrons, and they were overwhelmed with volunteers. The same with naval squadrons training in suicide boats for the invasion. ---
**Author:** ![Sparc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/65b543/32.png) [@Sparc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sparc)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2002, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fighting-to-the-last-man/106980/30 "2002-05-03T23:23:56Z")
778 AD **Roland and the battle at Roncevalles** Roland and an unknown number of knights and foot soldiers (some estimates say 70 horse which is about 280 men) knowing it will be tehir doom decide to take a stand to the last man against an expeditionary force from Saragossa several times larger in a gorge in the Pyrenees thereby giving king Charlemagne (Charles the Great) time to arrive and block the Saragossa forces entry into the Frankish kingdom. The deed was later immortalized in the epic poem ‘Song of Roland’ one of medieval Europe’s most read and recited books, which almost 900 years later gave rise to one of the most important works of literature in history, namely Don Quixote. Sparc ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2002, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fighting-to-the-last-man/106980/31 "2002-05-04T00:28:25Z")
Well…the problem with Roland is that the epic is more or less as reliable as the accounts of King Arthur’s battles. The only thing which is known with certainty is that Charlemagne actually had someone named Roland (not exactly Roland, but I can’t remember his exact real name) amongst his trusted followers (he was ruling the Brittany’s borderland at some point). The rest is legend… ---
**Author:** ![China\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@China\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/China_Guy)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2002, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fighting-to-the-last-man/106980/32 "2002-05-04T00:54:29Z")
How about Gallipoli in WW1. Not sure if the Aussies went out to the last man, but they were sure decimated. ---
**Author:** ![China\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@China\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/China_Guy)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2002, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fighting-to-the-last-man/106980/33 "2002-05-04T01:03:22Z")
caffiene hasn’t kicked in this morning. Here’s a few that were not mentioned (I think) Korean War - both sides of the conflict Gurkhas - many times in their history died to a man ---
**Author:** ![Sparc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/65b543/32.png) [@Sparc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sparc)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2002, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fighting-to-the-last-man/106980/34 "2002-05-04T01:23:36Z")
**clairobscur** ; Nope. The battle isn’t legend. The circumstances in the Chanson are totally off. But there is little doubt that this year saw a battle in the Pyrenees and that a contingent of Frankish horse sacrificed their lives to save the day. Now; the significance of the event is also exaggerated. Had they failed it would not in any remote way been the end of the Frankish empire. Maybe there would have been some farms and a couple of maidens fewer, but that’s academic. Roland’s identity is as you note contested. I’ll get you cites, other than a variety of books you won’t find anyway. Tomorrow you’ll have cites for your sights, dear **clairobscure** …😉 > [@](#): > > The French strike with zeal and rage, cutting through wrists, bodies, spines, piercing garments to carve into living flesh. And the bright blood flows onto the green grass. In the borderland of legends Sparc ---
**Author:** ![bibliophage](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bibliophage/32/7615_2.png) [@bibliophage](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bibliophage)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2002, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fighting-to-the-last-man/106980/35 "2002-05-04T03:06:30Z")
The Battle of Roncesvalles really happened, in 778. But _La Chanson de Roland_ is not reliable history. It wasn’t written down until centuries later. The real battle happened when the Franks were returning from fighting the Moors in Spain. The rear guard was ambushed by Basques who threw rocks down on them from above. ---
**Author:** ![dp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecd19e/32.png) [@dp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dp)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2002, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fighting-to-the-last-man/106980/36 "2002-05-04T04:45:22Z")
Check out the history of the Battle of Tarawa in the Pacific in WWII. I think that it was actually 6 Japanese left alive at the end of the battle( out of several thousand). A good friend of mine , who died a few years ago, was a leader of approx. 250 men in the battle. About 50 of his men left the island alive. After 50 years, he could barely talk about it. I was born probably 15 years after it happened, it brings tears to my eyes today. Being so recent, as far as history goes, there is much information available about it, and the record is more accurate than that of 500 years ago. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fighting-to-the-last-man/106980.md?page=1)