# Fighting tropical depressions with nuclear missiles (feasible?) **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [August 27, 2019, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fighting-tropical-depressions-with-nuclear-missiles-feasible/839294 "2019-08-27T04:28:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2019, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fighting-tropical-depressions-with-nuclear-missiles-feasible/839294/21 "2019-08-27T15:03:40Z")
> [@am77494](#): > > I would change “storms exist because they have energy.” to “storms exist because they have **organized** energy.” The organization of the energy is important . The storm starts from tropical depression and keeps organizing the energy till it becomes a hurricane. Of course once it hits land, the organization is disrupted - the idea is to not let it organize at its inception. The organization/structure you speak of is inherent and develops automatically because of gravity and the rotation of the planet. Warm air is compelled to rise; adding moisture, as tropical oceans will do, makes that air rise even higher (see [moist adiabatic lapse rate](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lapse_rate#Moist_adiabatic_lapse_rate)). When that air rises, surround low-level air moves toward the low-pressure area that’s left behind, and rotation - your “organization” - automatically develops. Landforms do induce a bit of drag on the rotating windmass once a storm makes landfall, but the bigger factor is the lack of warm tropical water beneath it; it’s like pulling the plug on an out-of-control floor polisher. Adding energy to a storm at any stage of development is not going to make it dissipate. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2019, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fighting-tropical-depressions-with-nuclear-missiles-feasible/839294/22 "2019-08-27T15:08:16Z")
> [@am77494](#): > > Before you get all defensive, I am seeking an answer at the feasibility level and fully understand that proper and extensive risk studies and mitigations need to be performed. I deal with millions of gallons of crude oil and billions of cubic feet of natural gas on a daily basis and am well aware of the risks involved. I’m not a science talking guy, but with your experience in dealing with those big numbers, maybe you have a better shot at working this out. [According to this](https://gomakethings.com/how-much-does-a-hurricane-weigh/), a hurricane contains 100 billion pounds of water. How much energy would be needed to raise the temperature of that much water by just 1 degree? I’m not clear on how to do that calculation, but it would seem to me: 1. A nuclear-powered aircraft wouldn’t seem to output more energy than a similar conventionally-powered aircraft, since it isn’t like a jet airplane is flying at 600 knots and a nuclear plane at 25 Mach; 2. If any airplane did actually put out that much energy as exhaust, we’d already have a lot bigger problems on our hands. ---
**Author:** ![am77494](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d2c977/32.png) [@am77494](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/am77494)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2019, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fighting-tropical-depressions-with-nuclear-missiles-feasible/839294/23 "2019-08-27T15:14:51Z")
> [@Machine\_Elf](#): > > …, surround low-level air moves toward the low-pressure area that’s left behind …,. Exactly. What if you heated the “low-pressure area “ with the missile for a few hours or days ? The heat will stop the area to be of low pressure and will temporarily stop the influx of surrounding air. And the premise is that this will disrupt the storm formation. The question is how much energy will you need to do this and will a nuclear missile be able to provide this energy ? ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2019, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fighting-tropical-depressions-with-nuclear-missiles-feasible/839294/24 "2019-08-27T15:19:40Z")
> [@Machine\_Elf](#): > > The two proposals I’ve seen for hurricane mitigation involve denying them their source of energy: warm tropical seawater. > > One scheme proposes an array of passive devices ([Salter sinks](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oVJznfgYGds)). Each one is a large tube extending down from the warm surface of the ocean to its cooler depths. The tube is supported by a flotation ring that incorporates a ramp. Warm waves from the open ocean splash over the ramp to the area contained within the perimeter of the tube, pushing the warm water in the tube down to the depths. IOW, the waves make it skim warm water from the surface and drive it down to the depths, letting colder water well up to the surface in other areas, reducing the overall surface temps. > > The other scheme proposes an array of [active devices](https://www.preventhurricanes.com/). Each one is a wind-turbine-powered pump that brings cold water from the depths to the surface, achieving basically the same result. > > Given the scale required to achieve any meaningful results, the cost of something like this seems like it would probably be enormous. That is, until you consider the annual cost of hurricane-related damage. The ultimate (sci-fi?) solution would suck the potential energy out of the ocean water and incipient cyclones and leave you with clean energy (to power flying cars and what not) ---
**Author:** ![am77494](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d2c977/32.png) [@am77494](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/am77494)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2019, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fighting-tropical-depressions-with-nuclear-missiles-feasible/839294/25 "2019-08-27T15:20:32Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > I’m not a science talking guy, but with your experience in dealing with those big numbers, maybe you have a better shot at working this out… > > [According to this](https://gomakethings.com/how-much-does-a-hurricane-weigh/), a hurricane contains 100 billion pounds of water. How much energy would be needed to raise the temperature of that much water by just 1 degree? I’m not clear on how to do that calculation, but it would seem to me: > …,. I feel this is highly patronizing. I am aware of the nuclear energy needed for HURRICANES- there are many other threads on the SDMB addressing the infeasibility of the effort. This post is about what happens before Hurricanes form at the tropical depression stage or earlier. At this stage the system is fairly low energy (or maybe not) that humans can effect further organization of the system. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2019, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fighting-tropical-depressions-with-nuclear-missiles-feasible/839294/26 "2019-08-27T15:39:05Z")
Then cut the number of 100 billion by a third and figure it out yourself how feasible it is, since you work with big numbers. ---
**Author:** ![eburacum45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eburacum45/32/8690_2.png) [@eburacum45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eburacum45)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2019, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fighting-tropical-depressions-with-nuclear-missiles-feasible/839294/27 "2019-08-27T15:59:15Z")
> [@Machine\_Elf](#): > > The two proposals I’ve seen for hurricane mitigation involve denying them their source of energy: warm tropical seawater. > > One scheme proposes an array of passive devices ([Salter sinks](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oVJznfgYGds)). -snip- > The other scheme proposes an array of [active devices](https://www.preventhurricanes.com/). Each one is a wind-turbine-powered pump that brings cold water from the depths to the surface, achieving basically the same result. > > Given the scale required to achieve any meaningful results, the cost of something like this seems like it would probably be enormous. That is, until you consider the annual cost of hurricane-related damage. The ideal method would be to use active devices that can also produce useable electric energy. Something like OTEC > **[Ocean thermal energy conversion](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ocean_thermal_energy_conversion)** > > Ocean thermal energy conversion (OTEC) is a renewable energy technology that harnesses the temperature difference between the warm surface waters of the ocean and the cold depths to run a heat engine to produce electricity. It is a unique form of clean energy generation that has the potential to provide a consistent and sustainable source of power. Although it has challenges to overcome, OTEC has the potential to provide a consistent and sustainable source of clean energy, particularly in tropi... ---
**Author:** ![am77494](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d2c977/32.png) [@am77494](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/am77494)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2019, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fighting-tropical-depressions-with-nuclear-missiles-feasible/839294/28 "2019-08-27T16:07:54Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Then cut the number of 100 billion by a third and figure it out yourself how feasible it is, since you work with big numbers. Why by a third and not a hundredth or a thousandth ? Do you have a cite that shows that energy required to disrupt a nascent tropical depression is of that order ? ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2019, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fighting-tropical-depressions-with-nuclear-missiles-feasible/839294/29 "2019-08-27T16:16:34Z")
> [@am77494](#): > > Why by a third and not a hundredth or a thousandth ? Do you have a cite that shows that energy required to disrupt a nascent tropical depression is of that order ? Do you have a cite that “nuclear missiles are capable of heating up a lot of air?” ---
**Author:** ![am77494](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d2c977/32.png) [@am77494](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/am77494)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2019, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fighting-tropical-depressions-with-nuclear-missiles-feasible/839294/30 "2019-08-27T16:19:56Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Do you have a cite that “nuclear missiles are capable of heating up a lot of air?” Here : [An Atmospheric Nuclear Ramjet: the Supersonic Low Altitude Missile](http://large.stanford.edu/courses/2015/ph241/rossi1/) And here:[Project Pluto - Wikipedia](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Pluto) ---
**Author:** ![TroutMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troutman/32/6721_2.png) [@TroutMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TroutMan)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2019, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fighting-tropical-depressions-with-nuclear-missiles-feasible/839294/31 "2019-08-27T16:29:16Z")
I saw nothing in your links referencing the heat output of such engines. Maybe if you provide that, we could do some back of the envelope calculations. ---
**Author:** ![gdave](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gdave/32/3683_2.png) [@gdave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gdave)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2019, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fighting-tropical-depressions-with-nuclear-missiles-feasible/839294/32 "2019-08-27T16:29:21Z")
Disclaimer: I Am Not An Atmospheric Scientist. So, I looked at Wikipedia for some info. I realize it’s not a terribly authoritative source, but it’s usually good for a first cut/overview. Per the page on [tropical cyclones](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tropical_cyclone#Physics_and_energetics), “a tropical cyclone releases heat energy at the rate of 50 to 200 exajoules (1018 J) per day, equivalent to about 1 PW (1015 watt). This rate of energy release is equivalent to 70 times the world energy consumption of humans and 200 times the worldwide electrical generating capacity, or to exploding a 10-megaton nuclear bomb every 20 minutes.” Note that a “tropical depression” is a type of tropical cyclone, with (relatively) low wind speeds. So, presumably a tropical depression’s heat energy release would be on the low end of the above estimates, but those are still huge. I Am Also Not a Nuclear Aeronautical Engineer, but given those numbers, it seems to me that flying a nuclear-powered missile around it, or a few dozen, or a few hundred, wouldn’t make any measurable difference. Also note that nuclear-powered missiles have highly radioactive exhausts. For a doomsday weapon, that’s a feature, not a bug. If you fly one around a tropical depression, though, I don’t think you disperse the storm, I think you just wind up with a radioactive storm. ---
**Author:** ![am77494](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d2c977/32.png) [@am77494](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/am77494)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2019, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fighting-tropical-depressions-with-nuclear-missiles-feasible/839294/33 "2019-08-27T16:46:40Z")
> [@TroutMan](#): > > I saw nothing in your links referencing the heat output of such engines. Maybe if you provide that, we could do some back of the envelope calculations. Assume 500 MW to 1000 MW heat output. Cite : “The flight reactor was intended to have thermal power in excess of 500 megawatts, but to prove the concept a sub-scale reactor was built first. This reactor, designated Tory II-A, had a design power of 155 megawatts. It heated incoming air to a temperature of 1080 °C, and had a flow rate of 320 kg/sec”[Project Pluto](https://www.fourmilab.ch/documents/pluto/) ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2019, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fighting-tropical-depressions-with-nuclear-missiles-feasible/839294/34 "2019-08-27T16:53:09Z")
> [@gdave](#): > > If you fly one around a tropical depression, though, I don’t think you disperse the storm, I think you just wind up with a radioactive storm. And the beginning of a campy TV movie. ---
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2019, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fighting-tropical-depressions-with-nuclear-missiles-feasible/839294/35 "2019-08-27T16:53:47Z")
> [@am77494](#): > > Exactly. What if you heated the “low-pressure area “ with the missile for a few hours or days ? The heat will stop the area to be of low pressure and will temporarily stop the influx of surrounding air. And the premise is that this will disrupt the storm formation. Even assuming a Very Powerful Missile, you’d just be doing the same thing to the air that the ocean is doing: adding heat. You’re just creating a larger, more energetic mass of air that wants to rise even faster. It’s a bit like sending a guy below deck on the Titanic to work on the hull with a Sawzall in an effort to keep the ship from sinking. :dubious: And then there is the matter of relative scale. **gdave’s** conversion of 1 PW should read 10[sup]15[/sup] watts. As in one thousand gigawatts, or one million megawatts. Since there currently are no known specifications for the thermal power of a nuclear-powered cruise missile, I’ll offer a better known figure: the humble Boeing 747. It burns [10-11 tonnes of fuel per hour at cruise.](https://www.google.com/search?ei=W1xlXZyNC5Ce5gKl2onwAg&q=747+fuel+consumption+per+hour&oq=747+fuel+consumption&gs_l=psy-ab.1.4.0l4j0i22i30l6.917.4711..7881...4.0..0.219.3839.0j22j2......0....1..gws-wiz.......35i39j0i67j0i131j0i20i263.gqX-mqB5iqU) Jet fuel (let’s call it [kerosene](https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/fuels-higher-calorific-values-d_169.html)) has a higher heating value of 46.2 MJ/kg. So: 10.5 tonnes per hour = 2.92 kg/s actual total power output = 46,200,000 J/kg \* 2.92 kg/s = 134.75 megawatts. Compared to **gdave’s** tropical cyclone, which is releasing 1,000,000 megawatts. If you could take that kind of power _out_ of the cyclone you’d at least be moving the energy tally in the right direction, if only by 0.013%. But adding energy is exactly the wrong approach. Edit: I see now that you’ve referenced a spec for the Pluto vehicle’s nuclear propulsion unit of 500 megawatts thermal power. So you can change the percentage to 0.05% (although it’d still be moving things in the wrong direction). ---
**Author:** ![am77494](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d2c977/32.png) [@am77494](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/am77494)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2019, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fighting-tropical-depressions-with-nuclear-missiles-feasible/839294/36 "2019-08-27T17:52:49Z")
> [@gdave](#): > > …"a tropical cyclone releases heat energy at the rate of 50 to 200 exajoules (1018 J) per day, equivalent to about 1 PW (1015 watt). … > [@Machine Elf](#): > > …actual total power output = 46,200,000 J/kg \* 2.92 kg/s = 134.75 megawatts. > Compared to gdave’s tropical cyclone, which is releasing 1,000,000 megawatts The idea of the original post is not to match the total energy of the Hurricane or the Tropical Storm. The idea is to break up the Organization of the tropical depression into lot of smaller storms by not allowing a single big organization. So say a Category 5 Hurricane is broken to 10 (or 20) small tropical storms. The nuclear heat output of the missile does not need be equal to that of the tropical storm system just enough to interrupt it to become bigger and more organized. The result will be lots of smaller storms with the same total energy (when added) as one large storm/hurricane. ---
**Author:** ![TroutMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troutman/32/6721_2.png) [@TroutMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TroutMan)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2019, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fighting-tropical-depressions-with-nuclear-missiles-feasible/839294/37 "2019-08-27T17:55:14Z")
How does adding heat break up the Organization? ---
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2019, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fighting-tropical-depressions-with-nuclear-missiles-feasible/839294/38 "2019-08-27T18:03:48Z")
> [@am77494](#): > > The idea is to break up the Organization of the tropical depression into lot of smaller storms by not allowing a single big organization. So say a Category 5 Hurricane is broken to 10 (or 20) small tropical storms. You’d have to physically separate the original air mass into 10-20 smaller air masses and move them apart by sufficient distance so that each one would become its own small low-pressure system. At which point you now have 10-20 hurricane seeds, each over its own separate body of warm tropical waters, gathering energy. People are going to be very angry at you. ---
**Author:** ![am77494](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d2c977/32.png) [@am77494](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/am77494)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2019, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fighting-tropical-depressions-with-nuclear-missiles-feasible/839294/39 "2019-08-27T18:08:01Z")
> [@TroutMan](#): > > How does adding heat break up the Organization? See post number 23 above. Essentially, the storm is formed by hot (humid and lighter) air rising upwards and creating a low pressure area where surrounding air moves in creating a circulatory effect that builds on itself. You remove the low pressure area (by adding heat for a day or two) and effectively break the cycle temporarily i.e. another cycle starts when you stop adding heat. ---
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2019, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fighting-tropical-depressions-with-nuclear-missiles-feasible/839294/40 "2019-08-27T18:11:26Z")
> [@am77494](#): > > You remove the low pressure area (by adding heat for a day or two) Can you explain this process in more detail? How does adding heat, in any amount, “remove the low pressure area?” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fighting-tropical-depressions-with-nuclear-missiles-feasible/839294.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fighting-tropical-depressions-with-nuclear-missiles-feasible/839294.md?page=3)