# Film / Photos of Real Swordfight? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [June 11, 2011, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/film-photos-of-real-swordfight/585141 "2011-06-11T19:48:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![minkyhaha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecd19e/32.png) [@minkyhaha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minkyhaha)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2011, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/film-photos-of-real-swordfight/585141/1 "2011-06-11T19:48:53Z")
Anyone aware of a film or photo of a real swordfight? Where the participants actually intend to harm one another? Not talking reenactors/roleplayers/martial arts practitioners, but something along the lines of a turn-of-the-century duel, military encounter, etc. Thanks for any info! ---
**Author:** ![Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/elmer_j.fudd/32/1211_2.png) [@Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elmer_J.Fudd)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2011, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/film-photos-of-real-swordfight/585141/2 "2011-06-11T20:11:28Z")
That’s a tall order. I can’t think of very many situations in the age of photography and small firearms where that scenario would ever unfold, except as snuff entertainment where one or both of the participants were compelled by force. I guess there may be a handful of incidents in the last 150 years where some old school duelists shunned pistols for blades but a duel is the kind of (usually illegal) secret back-alley event where cameras would almost certainly be forbidden by those involved. For that matter, is there any example on film of two equally armed people fighting to the death? And if there is, what kind of cameraman would film it instead of trying to break it up or get help. ---
**Author:** ![Omniscient](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omniscient/32/3290_2.png) [@Omniscient](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omniscient)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2011, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/film-photos-of-real-swordfight/585141/3 "2011-06-11T20:47:54Z")
Soldiers as recently as WWII still carried swords into battle, though those probably tended to be dress blades. I suppose it’s possible that two people might have ended up dueling, though the odds of that happening and a cameraman being there seems like a stretch. With how common sword play is in TV and movies these days it would be really interesting to see what a real fight looked like. ---
**Author:** ![DxZero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@DxZero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DxZero)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2011, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/film-photos-of-real-swordfight/585141/4 "2011-06-11T22:25:23Z")
> [@Omniscient](#): > > Soldiers as recently as WWII still carried swords into battle, though those probably tended to be **dress blades.** Jack Churchill doesn’t know what the hell you’re talking about. 😃 P.S. Google the name if anyone is not familiar. Well worth it. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2011, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/film-photos-of-real-swordfight/585141/5 "2011-06-11T22:48:01Z")
I suspect that most such fights were a lot more asymmetrical than what you see in movies. One guy gets close enough to the other guy, reacts quicker, sticks his blade in the other guy’s chest before the other guy has a chance to, and the fight is over. ---
**Author:** ![Critical1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/3e96dc/32.png) [@Critical1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Critical1)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2011, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/film-photos-of-real-swordfight/585141/6 "2011-06-11T23:03:56Z")
> [@DxZero](#): > > Jack Churchill doesn’t know what the hell you’re talking about. 😃 > > P.S. Google the name if anyone is not familiar. Well worth it. OMG! pure unfiltered badass! ---
**Author:** ![drachillix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/48db29/32.png) [@drachillix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drachillix)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2011, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/film-photos-of-real-swordfight/585141/7 "2011-06-12T00:46:05Z")
> [@minkyhaha](#): > > Anyone aware of a film or photo of a real swordfight? Where the participants actually intend to harm one another? Granted, SCA isn’t real but nobody is pulling any punches, everyone is swinging for hard contact kill shots if it was a real sword. For example. [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/49xRNkRSm3o/hqdefault.jpg "Fragile Toys") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=49xRNkRSm3o) [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/LseKs3swXIs/hqdefault.jpg "LEG!") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LseKs3swXIs) There is tons of video out there showing SCA guys getting tossed around hard, and without armor in the way, those shots can break bones even with rattan sticks we use for weapons. ---
**Author:** ![minkyhaha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecd19e/32.png) [@minkyhaha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minkyhaha)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2011, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/film-photos-of-real-swordfight/585141/8 "2011-06-12T01:07:31Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > I suspect that most such fights were a lot more asymmetrical than what you see in movies. One guy gets close enough to the other guy, reacts quicker, sticks his blade in the other guy’s chest before the other guy has a chance to, and the fight is over. Yep, that’s my assumption. I’m guessing just about all swordfights without any third-party interference were very, very short. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2011, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/film-photos-of-real-swordfight/585141/9 "2011-06-12T02:27:32Z")
I have two still photographs of two real duels to “first blood.” One was the 1958 duel between the Marquis de Cuevas, the owner of a ballet company, and a retired ballet dancer named Serge Lifar. The result: > [@](#): > > The first four minutes M. Lifar bounded about while the Marquis remained more or less stationary. In the third “round” the Marquis forced M. Lifar back by simply advancing with his sword held out straight in front of him…it was not clear whether skill or accident brought the Marquis’ blade into contact with M. Lifar’s arm. Blair, W. Granger “Marquis Pinks Dancer in a Ballet with Swords on the Field of Honor” _New York Times_ 31 March, 1958: pg 1. The second one was between two Deputies of the French Assemblée Nationale, on April 20 or 21 (sources vary on the date), 1967, between Gaston Defferre, the Socialist mayor of Marseille, and René Ribière, a Gaullist. The result: > [@](#): > > For four minutes the gallants scuffled and grunted, until Defferre nicked Ribière on the wrist and then opened a small cut on his forearm. At that point, the loser allowed as how honor had been satisfied. “He’s still a moron,” said Defferre. “It’s congenital.” _Time Magazine_ 28 April, 1967. Both of the photographs are very, very boring, showing the two men _en garde_ in mid-duel. > [@](#): > > I suspect that most such fights were a lot more asymmetrical than what you see in movies. One guy gets close enough to the other guy, reacts quicker, sticks his blade in the other guy’s chest before the other guy has a chance to, and the fight is over. I don’t think it’s easy to characterize a typical fight in that manner. Several sword duels I’ve read about nearly went to the point of each contestant collapsing from exhaustion with no blood shed (fighting purely defensively, you can keep going for a long time without injury against even a much better fighter). In some cases duelists have been able to take several highly grievous wounds which didn’t slow them down until after the fight was over, when they died. But yes there were cases where a much better swordsman was able to dispatch person after person with very little effort, such as is reputed for Jean-Louis Michel of France. IIRC in one stupid and pointless military set of “tests” he very quickly and effectively defeated more than a dozen men in succession, leaving a radius of bleeding, dying bodies. If what you’re saying however is in effect swordfights were not like _The Princess Bride_ then you’re correct. (And as a competitive and historical fencer I get really tired of people IRL chiming in with “but I always heard the swordfights in _The Princess Bride_ were realistic!” No, it was mediocre at best.) ---
**Author:** ![Ranchoth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ranchoth/32/1066_2.png) [@Ranchoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ranchoth)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2011, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/film-photos-of-real-swordfight/585141/10 "2011-06-12T02:30:07Z")
The best I could think of was this [1967 epee duel](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e68nuAcSuWQ), though neither was killed or seriously wounded. Apparently one of the duelists was the Mayor of Marseilles. Coupla other videos of French duels are linked to on that same youtube page—it seems a number of them were over bad theatre reviews. :dubious: Edit: Curses! Beaten to the punch! I demand satisfaction! ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2011, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/film-photos-of-real-swordfight/585141/11 "2011-06-12T02:31:51Z")
I’ll add there are some grainy still photos out there reputed to be of the setup, contest, or aftermath of duels, and I think many of them are of dubious authenticity. There is one really gruesome photo I’ve seen from the early 1900’s of a man with his brain exposed and sliced in two from a sabre duel he lost, which is supposed to be real, but it can’t be 100% confirmed by me. Generally speaking, especially due to the illegality of duels in most places after the age of portable cameras, contestants in a duel didn’t want their actions recorded in any way which could identify them to authorities. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2011, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/film-photos-of-real-swordfight/585141/12 "2011-06-12T02:34:38Z")
> [@Ranchoth](#): > > The best I could think of was this [1967 epee duel](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e68nuAcSuWQ), though neither was killed or seriously wounded. Apparently one of the duelists was the Mayor of Marseilles. > > Coupla other videos of French duels are linked to on that same youtube page—it seems a number of them were over bad theatre reviews. :dubious: > > Edit: Curses! Beaten to the punch! I demand satisfaction! No satisfaction needed - I’ve never seen that video, and had no idea it was on Youtube. I am in your debt for posting the link to it (salutes **Ranchoth** ). ---
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2011, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/film-photos-of-real-swordfight/585141/13 "2011-06-12T03:26:44Z")
Around 1974 or so one of our high school history teachers had some color films of Heidelberg student duelists (looked to be early 60’s vintage based on clothing ) going at it with real sabers which he played for the class. The duelists were regularly scarred up (sometimes severely) in these duels. I think the expectation was that they would go at it hammer and tong until blood was drawn. IIRC the school did not sanction these duels. They were held by by certain student societies. I’m not sure where you could find these films today. Some of the student’s faces looked like roadmaps. ---
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2011, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/film-photos-of-real-swordfight/585141/14 "2011-06-12T03:34:22Z")
[Here’s a wiki on "academic fencing"](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Academic_fencing)which is apparrently what the above is all about. ---
**Author:** ![bluezooky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e8c25b/32.png) [@bluezooky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bluezooky)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2011, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/film-photos-of-real-swordfight/585141/15 "2011-06-12T03:45:40Z")
> [@Elmer\_J.Fudd](#): > > That’s a tall order. I can’t think of very many situations in the age of photography and small firearms where that scenario would ever unfold, except as snuff entertainment where one or both of the participants were compelled by force. I guess there may be a handful of incidents in the last 150 years where some old school duelists shunned pistols for blades but a duel is the kind of (usually illegal) secret back-alley event where cameras would almost certainly be forbidden by those involved. > > For that matter, is there any example on film of two equally armed people fighting to the death? And if there is, what kind of cameraman would film it instead of trying to break it up or get help. You would definitely see real sword fights today on Parts of Indonesia and the Philippines, I’ve seen news footage of people wandering around protesting armed with the types of weapons you expect to see in some kung fu movie, in that part of the world I’m quite sure real combat would happen occasionally. ---
**Author:** ![minkyhaha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecd19e/32.png) [@minkyhaha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minkyhaha)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2011, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/film-photos-of-real-swordfight/585141/16 "2011-06-12T04:57:29Z")
> [@bluezooky](#): > > You would definitely see real sword fights today on Parts of Indonesia and the Philippines Pics or it didn’t happen. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/elmer_j.fudd/32/1211_2.png) [@Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elmer_J.Fudd)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2011, 5:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/film-photos-of-real-swordfight/585141/17 "2011-06-12T05:16:46Z")
> [@bluezooky](#): > > You would definitely see real sword fights today on Parts of Indonesia and the Philippines, I’ve seen news footage of people wandering around protesting armed with the types of weapons you expect to see in some kung fu movie, in that part of the world I’m quite sure real combat would happen occasionally. More likely the people they attack would either be unarmed or (unfortunately for them) have a concealed firearm. I think an Indiana Jones scenario is probably a lot more likely result than one-on-one combat between two swordsmen. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2011, 5:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/film-photos-of-real-swordfight/585141/18 "2011-06-12T05:31:43Z")
> [@Ranchoth](#): > > The best I could think of was this [1967 epee duel](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e68nuAcSuWQ), though neither was killed or seriously wounded. Apparently one of the duelists was the Mayor of Marseilles. > > Coupla other videos of French duels are linked to on that same youtube page—it seems a number of them were over bad theatre reviews. :dubious: > > Edit: Curses! Beaten to the punch! I demand satisfaction! I have a hard time calling that a “real” dual when the swords have balls at the tip so they can’t be used to stab the other guy. Punk ass bitches. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2011, 6:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/film-photos-of-real-swordfight/585141/19 "2011-06-12T06:23:49Z")
> [@Ranchoth](#): > > Coupla other videos of French duels are linked to on that same youtube page—it seems a number of them were over bad theatre reviews. :dubious: The Art is Serious Business. As Molière famously said, “Is yo frontin’ nigga, or is yo a bitch ?” ---
**Author:** ![minkyhaha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecd19e/32.png) [@minkyhaha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minkyhaha)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2011, 10:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/film-photos-of-real-swordfight/585141/20 "2011-06-12T10:35:14Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > The Art is Serious Business. As Molière famously said, “Is yo frontin’ nigga, or is yo a bitch ?” Touché! [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/film-photos-of-real-swordfight/585141.md?page=2)