# Films that don't make sense unless you understand the zeitgeist of the time **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [February 20, 2010, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/films-that-dont-make-sense-unless-you-understand-the-zeitgeist-of-the-time/529730 "2010-02-20T03:42:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Magicicada](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c67d28/32.png) [@Magicicada](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magicicada)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2010, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/films-that-dont-make-sense-unless-you-understand-the-zeitgeist-of-the-time/529730/21 "2010-02-20T21:24:57Z")
I understand that The Boy With Green Hair was seen as unpatriotic in its day, due to its pacifist message…but if your earliest memories regarding war involve Viet Nam, the concept of “war creates war orphans = pacifism” is rather puzzling. ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2010, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/films-that-dont-make-sense-unless-you-understand-the-zeitgeist-of-the-time/529730/22 "2010-02-20T22:00:07Z")
> [@salinqmind](#): > > This has always fascinated me, watching movies made in the 30’s. You have the rich, dressed in tuxes and evening gowns, riding in expensive cars, living in white art deco mansions with enormous flower arrangements in every room. A lot depends on which movies from the 30s you’re watching. Sure, there were movies featuring the rich, but there were just as many showing lower class people and their struggles. As a general rule, Warner Brothers films showed lower class (note that the Busby Berkeley musicals focused on the chorines and made the rich a target of ridicule) and Paramount films focused on the upper class (MGM stuck with middle class values). Obviously, this wasn’t a hard and fast rule, but the trend was pretty obvious. And it’s not just films and art; you really can’t understand anything about the past unless you can force yourself to see things as they would be seen at the time. Otherwise, you’re prone to Whiggism (assuming people in the past saw things the way you do) or the Historian’s Fallacy (assuming they knew how things would work out, since you know how things work out). As for suggestions of films, an obvious choice is **Gentlemen’s Agreement**. I seriously doubt a Jew today would see the same sort of prejudice that shocked viewers back in 1947. I won’t argue there is none, but it’s certainly not mainstream, and the pervasiveness shown in the movie sounds pretty heavy-handed now. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2010, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/films-that-dont-make-sense-unless-you-understand-the-zeitgeist-of-the-time/529730/23 "2010-02-21T04:17:04Z")
No biggie, but isn’t it redundant to say “zeitgeist of the time”? ---
**Author:** ![Tapioca\_Dextrin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Tapioca\_Dextrin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tapioca_Dextrin)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2010, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/films-that-dont-make-sense-unless-you-understand-the-zeitgeist-of-the-time/529730/24 "2010-02-21T04:52:37Z")
How about a classic double bill? [Birth of a Nation](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Birth_of_a_Nation) followed by [Intolerance](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intolerance_%28film%29)? Two films by the same director. The first one was wildly successful, and I don’t think it was _intended_ to be racist drivel, but Intolerance would never have been made at all if it weren’t for the backlash _Birth_ produced. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2010, 5:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/films-that-dont-make-sense-unless-you-understand-the-zeitgeist-of-the-time/529730/25 "2010-02-21T05:20:06Z")
Thanks for mentioning those. I’ve not seen _Intolerance_, so I looked it up. Upon reading about it, I found that one version on video has a score played by [Gaylord Carter](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaylord_Carter) I saw and heard Carter perform the score for _Phantom Of The Opera_. I guess it was around 1982 or so, at one a revival house in the North Hollywood or the vicinity. ---
**Author:** ![BMax](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bmax/32/4267_2.png) [@BMax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BMax)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2010, 6:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/films-that-dont-make-sense-unless-you-understand-the-zeitgeist-of-the-time/529730/26 "2010-02-21T06:13:13Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > _Dr. Strangelove_ is probably hard to appreciate fully w/o understanding Cold War mentalities. Note the “fully” in that sentence-- I doubt that any films make no sense without understanding the current zeitgeist. Absolutely. I’m in my 40’s, grew up and served in the army during the last half of the Cold War. I know the paranoia was not as bad during the Reagan years as the Kennedy years when the film was made, but I still remember it. I’ve watched Dr. Strangelove with people in their 20’s who were small children when the Berlin wall fell. They wonder why we were flying planes around the arctic loaded with atomic bombs, and I explain that the Soviets were doing the same thing at the time. One girl’s response was “Well, that was stupid”. Yes, it was stupid. I think Kubrick said that with a little more eloquence and nuance. ---
**Author:** ![Maiira](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f04885/32.png) [@Maiira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maiira)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2010, 6:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/films-that-dont-make-sense-unless-you-understand-the-zeitgeist-of-the-time/529730/27 "2010-02-21T06:43:31Z")
Any silent or early film. Film was a new medium back then, so the acting (which we consider over-the-top and exaggerated today) was taken directly from theater acting, which we now separate into two different things. (Although theater acting has changed as well.) I guess it’s not so much that those films don’t make SENSE, per se, they just seem overacted and comical. Back in the day, that wasn’t the case. For a specific film, I would say **Elephant**. When I saw it in the theater, I was in high school, and it absolutely terrified me. It had come on the heels of the Columbine shootings, so it hit very close to home. I wonder if future generations will see it and think “what the hell, this movie’s BORING.” ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2010, 7:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/films-that-dont-make-sense-unless-you-understand-the-zeitgeist-of-the-time/529730/28 "2010-02-21T07:11:39Z")
One of my favorite movies is \*Brief Encounter, \*a 1945 film about the values of the British middle-class. The entire plot revolves around two people who are married, but not to each other, who enjoy each other’s company, and who might . . . just _ **might** _ . . . consummate their relationship. In 1945 adultery was a serious offense, but today it’s barely worth noticing. Today’s audience usually finds the film incomprehensible and pointless by today’s standards. But if you watch it in the context of 1945 values, it’s a bittersweet, heartbreaking story . . . and beautifully portrayed. ---
**Author:** ![Geek\_Mecha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ecae2f/32.png) [@Geek\_Mecha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Geek_Mecha)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2010, 8:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/films-that-dont-make-sense-unless-you-understand-the-zeitgeist-of-the-time/529730/29 "2010-02-21T08:53:02Z")
Watching Denzel Washington rant about how disgusting gay men are in _Philadelphia_ today was almost painful. I’m sure at the time it was released, a lot people agreed with him, if only silently. But in another couple decades, though, that character’s gonna look like an insecure, paranoid douchebag, and his transformation at the end will become a “he stops being batshit crazy” moment rather than a touching “he comes to understand another human being” moment. ---
**Author:** ![Declan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecae2f/32.png) [@Declan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Declan)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2010, 8:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/films-that-dont-make-sense-unless-you-understand-the-zeitgeist-of-the-time/529730/30 "2010-02-21T08:54:07Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > . So what other movies are lost on anyone who doesn’t understand the times in which they were made? I’m thinking the Dirty Harry movies and Charles Bronson vigilante movies of the seventies. Declan ---
**Author:** ![amarinth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3be4f8/32.png) [@amarinth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amarinth)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2010, 10:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/films-that-dont-make-sense-unless-you-understand-the-zeitgeist-of-the-time/529730/31 "2010-02-21T10:29:53Z")
> [@astro](#): > > [Bob and Carol and Ted and Alice.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_&_Carol_&_Ted_&_Alice) Agreed. I just watched that a few weeks ago. It was ridiculous. I’m not sure how important it was or how much depth it had at the time, but today, most of the movie comes across as people acting stupidly. It has not aged well at all. Maybe I’d have gotten it more if I _looked_ at people. You know, _really_ looked at them. ---
**Author:** ![Jim\_s\_Son](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19adc/32.png) [@Jim\_s\_Son](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jim_s_Son)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2010, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/films-that-dont-make-sense-unless-you-understand-the-zeitgeist-of-the-time/529730/32 "2010-02-21T13:06:52Z")
“Billy Jack” ---
**Author:** ![Zeldar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/b77776/32.png) [@Zeldar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeldar)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2010, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/films-that-dont-make-sense-unless-you-understand-the-zeitgeist-of-the-time/529730/33 "2010-02-21T13:31:02Z")
> [@Jim\_s\_Son](#): > > “Billy Jack” Fine example. I saw this within weeks of its original release. I was familiar with the themes and issues and was, to a minor degree, sympathetic to them. I enjoyed the bravado and self-confidence of the title character and relished in his kicking some major ass (pun intended in both cases), but the stilted “acting” and the weak production values were off-putting and made it come across finally as a bad comedy. I did laugh out loud at several of the scenes that were way on up the hokey meter from 100%. I was able to tolerate maybe the first five minutes of it not very long ago before I just had to turn it off and watch the weather – on DVR! I feel confident that elsewhere on the Dope I have mentioned my extreme disappointment in introducing my teenage son to Robert Mitchum’s “classic” car chase and badass vehicle from the late 50’s “Thunder Road” which was until McQueen’s “Bullitt” and Hackman’s “The French Connection” the gold standard in car chases. I had to hide my face in shame, here less than 30 years later when barely one or two scenes didn’t reek with corniness and bad acting. The big difference in these two experiences is that I LOVED Thunder Road at the time. Even a favorite movie can lose its luster after a decade or two, and I have participated in several threads where that is the major issue. Zeitgeist is very much a factor in the enjoyment of 80% of the movies ever made. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2010, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/films-that-dont-make-sense-unless-you-understand-the-zeitgeist-of-the-time/529730/34 "2010-02-21T13:34:56Z")
I was thinking _Looking for Mr. Goodbar_. The whole 70’s, liberated, lets all do coke and have sex thing. I don’t think you could get away these days with a protagonist who is both a school teacher and masochistic sex fiend. At least not outside of an art-house. Also … I think _Easy Rider_ is probably the epitome of the sentiment in the OP. ---
**Author:** ![salinqmind](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/3ec8ea/32.png) [@salinqmind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/salinqmind)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2010, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/films-that-dont-make-sense-unless-you-understand-the-zeitgeist-of-the-time/529730/35 "2010-02-21T14:44:21Z")
> [@amarinth](#): > > Agreed. > > I just watched that a few weeks ago. > > It was ridiculous. I’m not sure how important it was or how much depth it had at the time, but today, most of the movie comes across as people acting stupidly. It has not aged well at all. Maybe I’d have gotten it more if I _looked_ at people. You know, _really_ looked at them. Hate to date myself, but I worked at the movie theater when “Bob and Carol and Ted and Alice” was playing - it did tremendous business. Even then, I thought it was utterly stupid and smarmy, like an updated Doris Day movie for the oldsters to gape and snigger at. I think they came in actually expecting famous actors to actually be ‘doing it’, at least talking about it. Disappointment! A stupid, stupid movie. ---
**Author:** ![Zeldar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/b77776/32.png) [@Zeldar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeldar)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2010, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/films-that-dont-make-sense-unless-you-understand-the-zeitgeist-of-the-time/529730/36 "2010-02-21T15:01:05Z")
I would like to ask those of you in the Thirtysomething range (and others, too) if [Rebel Without a Cause (1955)](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0048545/) has gotten into this zeitgeist issue zone yet. There was a time when “The Graduate” was dubbed as Rebel for the 60’s, and I personally never could understand why, having established Rebel as a proper substitute for the Holy Bible in my teens. I do know my youngest son had posters of the movie hanging in his room in the 80’s and he and I were able to discuss themes and issues in his teen years and they didn’t seem to me to be all that different. Ten years or so ago, Rebel fell off the IMDB Top 250 list, so I must assume it’s off in limbo now between being a “cult classic” and a “moldy oldie” for the voting crowd these days. If you have an opinion on the movie itself, and where it fits in the zeitgeist issue, I’d love to know. ---
**Author:** ![Maserschmidt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/maserschmidt/32/18829_2.png) [@Maserschmidt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maserschmidt)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2010, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/films-that-dont-make-sense-unless-you-understand-the-zeitgeist-of-the-time/529730/37 "2010-02-21T15:10:48Z")
> [@JohnT](#): > > No biggie, but isn’t it redundant to say “zeitgeist of the time”? Well, I think it’s arguably incomplete more than it’s redundant…the OP means “the zeitgeist of the era in which it was made” as opposed to the random zeitgeists that crowd our history. But I think we get his/her point. ---
**Author:** ![Maserschmidt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/maserschmidt/32/18829_2.png) [@Maserschmidt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maserschmidt)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2010, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/films-that-dont-make-sense-unless-you-understand-the-zeitgeist-of-the-time/529730/38 "2010-02-21T15:15:22Z")
> [@Zeldar](#): > > Fine example. I saw this within weeks of its original release. I was familiar with the themes and issues and was, to a minor degree, sympathetic to them. I enjoyed the bravado and self-confidence of the title character and relished in his kicking some major ass (pun intended in both cases), but the stilted “acting” and the weak production values were off-putting and made it come across finally as a bad comedy. I did laugh out loud at several of the scenes that were way on up the hokey meter from 100%. A fine example indeed, and agreed as to its hokeyness. [tangent] We also saw this in the theater, and as a group reconstructed from memory this really, really bad bit of dialogue and took to randomly quoting it at each other: > [@](#): > > Bernard, I want you to know that I try. When Jean and the kids at the school tell me that I’m supposed to control my violent temper, and be passive and nonviolent like they are, I try. I really try. Though when I see this girl of such a beautiful spirit… so degraded… and this boy that I love… sprawled out by this big ape here… and this little girl, who is so special to us we call her “God’s little gift of sunshine”, and I think of the number of years that she’s going to have to carry in her memory the savagery of this idiotic moment of yours… I just go BERSERK! [/tan] ---
**Author:** ![In\_Winnipeg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/a8b319/32.png) [@In\_Winnipeg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/In_Winnipeg)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2010, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/films-that-dont-make-sense-unless-you-understand-the-zeitgeist-of-the-time/529730/39 "2010-02-21T15:15:51Z")
_Saturday Night Fever_. I don’t think that anyone who didn’t live through the disco era could really understand it, even with the help of recent films regarding Studio 54 and other 70s topics. _SNF_ was, of course, contemporary to the events these more recent movies portray. Contrary to how much fun _SNF_ may look, disco \*\*\*did \*\*\*indeed suck. ---
**Author:** ![Zeldar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/b77776/32.png) [@Zeldar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeldar)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2010, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/films-that-dont-make-sense-unless-you-understand-the-zeitgeist-of-the-time/529730/40 "2010-02-21T15:21:21Z")
> [@Maserschmidt](#): > > Well, I think it’s arguably incomplete more than it’s redundant…the OP means “the zeitgeist of the era in which it was made” as opposed to the random zeitgeists that crowd our history. But I think we get his/her point. I support this position. However, if my German is anything to go by, _zeit_ is time and _geist_ is ghost/spirit (as in poltergeist = knock spirit) so “spirit of the time” is what the word actually says. ATM machine, anyone? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/films-that-dont-make-sense-unless-you-understand-the-zeitgeist-of-the-time/529730.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/films-that-dont-make-sense-unless-you-understand-the-zeitgeist-of-the-time/529730.md?page=3)