# Final high school exams (NSW) - the ten most popular languages **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [October 20, 2009, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/final-high-school-exams-nsw-the-ten-most-popular-languages/514423 "2009-10-20T01:30:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Giles](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giles/32/60_2.png) [@Giles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giles)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2009, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/final-high-school-exams-nsw-the-ten-most-popular-languages/514423/21 "2009-10-21T15:53:03Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > _Fobs_? That’s not offensive in Oz? I haven’t heard it – I assume it’s short for “foreign born”. Why would that be offensive? (Those who discriminate against Chinese Australians don’t really care whether they were born overseas or in Australia. Saying “fobs” in this context is only recognising that high school students brought up in China are going to be better at Chinese.) ---
**Author:** ![bengangmo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@bengangmo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bengangmo)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2009, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/final-high-school-exams-nsw-the-ten-most-popular-languages/514423/22 "2009-10-21T16:00:09Z")
> [@FlyingRamenMonster](#): > > In Western Australia at least, in your final two years of high school _every_ class is an elective. You have to take an English class and if you want to sit the TEEs (tertiary entrance exams) you have to do at least 4 TEE subjects but otherwise you can pick whatever the hell you want. Languages weren’t very popular because they weren’t prestigious (the standard “serious student” course load was some variation of two maths, two sciences, English literature and economics which we called the “super six” or “suicide six”) and didn’t scale well (Chinese in particular was notorious for this because the fobs all took it and if you got 90% on a test it’d get scaled down to a fail mark). But I did know a few people who took two languages and it was quite possible to do so. > > Edit: Chinese may be the second most popular language on the list, but I can guarantee you that 90%+ of those students are Chinese, and maybe 50% are _extremely_ recent immigrants (like educated in China up to year 11 or so). I remember my university Mandarin class quite vividly - in a class of about 35 there was all of 3 caucasians. The rest were Hong Kong, Thai Chinese, Indonesian Chinese, Chinese Malaysians etc etc ( I think you get the picture) Policy was that “native” speakers weren’t allowed in the class - what slipped through however were (citing the Thai) - “I’m not a native speaker - the official language of Thailand is Thai, not Mandarin” I struggled in that course like nothing I’ve ever taken before - and studied harder than for any paper before or since. ---
**Author:** ![Kyla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/eada6e/32.png) [@Kyla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kyla)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2009, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/final-high-school-exams-nsw-the-ten-most-popular-languages/514423/23 "2009-10-21T16:08:15Z")
> [@FlyingRamenMonster](#): > > In Western Australia at least, in your final two years of high school _every_ class is an elective. This is interesting. While this is technically similar to how it works in the US (or at least in California), in reality, you need to take a lot of specific classes to get into a good university. It’s possible the details have altered in minor ways since 1996 when I graduated high school, but for instance, you only have to take two years of math to graduate, but to get into the University of California, you have to take three years, and they _recommend_ you take four years. You don’t need to take _any_ foreign language to graduate high school, but the University of California requires a minimum of two years, and if you don’t take three years, you have to take an additional year when you actually get there. Is that not the case for being accepted to a good university in Australia? ---
**Author:** ![Kyla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/eada6e/32.png) [@Kyla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kyla)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2009, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/final-high-school-exams-nsw-the-ten-most-popular-languages/514423/24 "2009-10-21T16:09:40Z")
> [@Giles](#): > > I haven’t heard it – I assume it’s short for “foreign born”. Why would that be offensive? My understanding is that it’s short for “fresh off (the) boat”. I haven’t heard it in enough to determine how offensive it is. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2009, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/final-high-school-exams-nsw-the-ten-most-popular-languages/514423/25 "2009-10-21T16:18:19Z")
> [@Giles](#): > > I haven’t heard it – I assume it’s short for “foreign born”. Why would that be offensive? It’s short for “fresh off the boat”, and though not necessarily offensive, per se, it’s not a term I’d use in polite company. ---
**Author:** ![nashiitashii](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/7c8e57/32.png) [@nashiitashii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nashiitashii)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2009, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/final-high-school-exams-nsw-the-ten-most-popular-languages/514423/26 "2009-10-21T16:20:10Z")
> [@FlyingRamenMonster](#): > > Edit: Chinese may be the second most popular language on the list, but I can guarantee you that 90%+ of those students are Chinese, and maybe 50% are _extremely_ recent immigrants (like educated in China up to year 11 or so). I’m not entirely sure how native speakers are being allowed to take what I’m assuming is a beginner/intermediate level course in their own language-- it’s not helpful for them, is giving the other students who take it a much lower chance of actually passing the course [due to the grading curve created by 50%+ native speakers], and is potentially keeping them from meeting some sort of actual accomplishment that the rule of “take a foreign language” requires. > [@bengangmo](#): > > I remember my university Mandarin class quite vividly - in a class of about 35 there was all of 3 caucasians. The rest were Hong Kong, Thai Chinese, Indonesian Chinese, Chinese Malaysians etc etc ( I think you get the picture) Policy was that “native” speakers weren’t allowed in the class - what slipped through however were (citing the Thai) - “I’m not a native speaker - the official language of Thailand is Thai, not Mandarin” I struggled in that course like nothing I’ve ever taken before - and studied harder than for any paper before or since. In some cases, the policy isn’t strict enough, but having people take language proficiency exams before taking the class (to sort people out) wouldn’t do a whole lot either-- one can easily fake not knowing the material if they’re a native speaker. Personally, unless they’re learning the writing aspect of the language for the first time, behavior like this makes me think of the people doing it as incredibly academically lazy. Then again, I am strongly for having separate classes for native speakers of a language who are not literate or strongly literate in that language-- it’s a good way to make language learning more fair for all groups of learners. **RNATB** : I didn’t know that most people still used that. I’ve only ever used it in context of my own family, and even then, it was with people I was closer to-- I wouldn’t dare use it to describe anyone else in passing. ---
**Author:** ![Heart\_of\_Dorkness](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/4bbf92/32.png) [@Heart\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Heart_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2009, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/final-high-school-exams-nsw-the-ten-most-popular-languages/514423/27 "2009-10-21T16:26:10Z")
> [@Giles](#): > > I haven’t heard it – I assume it’s short for “foreign born”. Why would that be offensive? > > (Those who discriminate against Chinese Australians don’t really care whether they were born overseas or in Australia. Saying “fobs” in this context is only recognising that high school students brought up in China are going to be better at Chinese.) As others have said, it’s short for Fresh Off the Boat, and is usually used in a derrogatory way, more or less equivalent to “hick” or “just fell off the turnip truck”. It implies that the person is uneducated, uncultured, uncool, and probably poor. It’s not vulgar or racist, but it isn’t nice, either. I mostly hear it used by American-born children of immigrants who want to distance themselves from “fobs”. I also hear it occasionally from people who discriminate based on difference, not race, as in, “I don’t know why these fobs refuse to learn English and make an effort to fit in. I work with a couple of Chinese guys, but they’re not fobby at all; they’re totally Americanized.” My guess is that someone who discriminates based on race would be unlikely to use the term at all, because it doesn’t matter how cool or cultured the person is, they’re still the wrong race. ---
**Author:** ![Giles](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giles/32/60_2.png) [@Giles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giles)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2009, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/final-high-school-exams-nsw-the-ten-most-popular-languages/514423/28 "2009-10-21T16:31:38Z")
But, in this context, the idea is that recent immigrants are better at something – not that they refuse to integrate, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2009, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/final-high-school-exams-nsw-the-ten-most-popular-languages/514423/29 "2009-10-21T16:34:15Z")
> [@nashiitashii](#): > > **RNATB** : I didn’t know that most people still used that. I’ve only ever used it in context of my own family, and even then, it was with people I was closer to-- I wouldn’t dare use it to describe anyone else in passing. It’s all about context; I wouldn’t think anything of it if **FlyingRamenMonster** is Chinese, for example. ---
**Author:** ![Heart\_of\_Dorkness](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/4bbf92/32.png) [@Heart\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Heart_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2009, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/final-high-school-exams-nsw-the-ten-most-popular-languages/514423/30 "2009-10-21T17:01:24Z")
> [@Giles](#): > > But, in this context, the idea is that recent immigrants are better at something – not that they refuse to integrate, etc. Well, kind of. But more specifically, it’s that: 1. they’re better not through study and hard work, but because they just grew up speaking that language 2. they’re using this “natural” advantage unfairly, to get easy credit, and 3. they’re making it harder for those who don’t have that advantage to earn a good grade fairly I mean, it’s not like saying, “They should go back where they came from”, but it is saying, “\*They \*have it easy, those jerks”. And of course, that’s certainly true. But it doesn’t really put a positive spin on “fob”. Even if the context were positive, it doesn’t really matter. It’s like if someone said, “That jerkwad is better than me at golf”. "Jerkwad " is a negative word, and the fact that you’re saying it in a positive context doesn’t make it positive. Again, it’s not a huge thing, to my ears - it’s really no stronger than “hick”, but can be a bit more offensive when spoken by an “outsider”. As **RNATB** said, I wouldn’t think anything of it if **FlyingRamenMonster** is Chinese. ---
**Author:** ![FlyingRamenMonster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@FlyingRamenMonster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FlyingRamenMonster)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2009, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/final-high-school-exams-nsw-the-ten-most-popular-languages/514423/31 "2009-10-21T18:25:49Z")
> [@Kyla](#): > > This is interesting. While this is technically similar to how it works in the US (or at least in California), in reality, you need to take a lot of specific classes to get into a good university. It’s possible the details have altered in minor ways since 1996 when I graduated high school, but for instance, you only have to take two years of math to graduate, but to get into the University of California, you have to take three years, and they _recommend_ you take four years. You don’t need to take _any_ foreign language to graduate high school, but the University of California requires a minimum of two years, and if you don’t take three years, you have to take an additional year when you actually get there. > > Is that not the case for being accepted to a good university in Australia? We don’t really have “good universities” here - that is to say, some schools are held in higher regard than others, and some are considered jokes, but the vast majority of students go to university in their own state. If you wanted to go to school in Sydney or Melbourne instead, you could, but we don’t have an ultra-competitive Ivy League equivalent. Even the top schools would accept you if you had the grades and exam results. You don’t have to do exactly the right classes and have a 4+ GPA and be on the rowing team and help donate puppies to Africa. Also, whoops, I didn’t realize “fob” offends people. It gets tossed around all the time in my group of friends, but we’re a rather irreverent bunch. As it happens, I _am_ Chinese but I don’t think that’s really a good excuse for making other people uncomfortable. I am a bit… uh… postracial at times (really just a fancy way of saying “likes to tell racist jokes for the irony of it and then wonder why nobody else is laughing”) but hey, I’m working on it! I’d like to point out that I think “fob” is only disparaging when you mean it to be, I often see it being used almost affectionately. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2009, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/final-high-school-exams-nsw-the-ten-most-popular-languages/514423/32 "2009-10-21T18:27:07Z")
Oh, well, carry on then. ---
**Author:** ![FlyingRamenMonster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@FlyingRamenMonster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FlyingRamenMonster)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2009, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/final-high-school-exams-nsw-the-ten-most-popular-languages/514423/33 "2009-10-21T18:41:25Z")
Also I didn’t have anything against the Chinese students in the background class (the fobs, if you will) since they just came from China and Chinese was probably their only easy class since they had to deal with the language barrier in every other one, but the ones in the beginner class were in fact grade-scrounging douchebags who deserved every point they got scaled down because they were ruining the subject for everyone else and probably the main reason there were no actual beginners in the beginner class. Basically, they picked the noob class so they could benefit from thrashing some noobs only to discover there were no noobs and getting thrashed by each other. Comedy. Even most Chinese students had enough sense to stay the hell away from Chinese class. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2009, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/final-high-school-exams-nsw-the-ten-most-popular-languages/514423/34 "2009-10-21T18:49:09Z")
> [@Kyla](#): > > Really? I don’t know how the Australian school system is organized, but in the US school system, it’s unusual to take more than one language because most students - at least, the sort of serious students who would voluntarily take multiple languages - don’t have enough room in their schedules. I did. Two years of Spanish, two years of Latin. Spanish may have been more useful, but Latin was a hell of a lot more fun. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2009, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/final-high-school-exams-nsw-the-ten-most-popular-languages/514423/35 "2009-10-21T19:23:12Z")
Especially when you get to Book 2 of the Oxford Latin Course and find out Horace is bi-curious. ---
**Author:** ![Sunspace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunspace/32/1250_2.png) [@Sunspace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunspace)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2009, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/final-high-school-exams-nsw-the-ten-most-popular-languages/514423/36 "2009-10-21T19:52:27Z")
> [@FlyingRamenMonster](#): > > Also I didn’t have anything against the Chinese students in the background class (the fobs, if you will) since they just came from China and Chinese was probably their only easy class since they had to deal with the language barrier in every other one, but the ones in the beginner class were in fact grade-scrounging douchebags who deserved every point they got scaled down because they were ruining the subject for everyone else and probably the main reason there were no actual beginners in the beginner class. Basically, they picked the noob class so they could benefit from thrashing some noobs only to discover there were no noobs and getting thrashed by each other. Comedy. Even most Chinese students had enough sense to stay the hell away from Chinese class. And meanwhile, the actual beginners aren’t being served well? In the Japanese course I’m taking, the class is 3/4 asian… but there are only 12 of us. And everyone is an actual beginner. Some may be of Japanese ancestry; some have Chinese ancestry; one is taking the class because his Taiwanese grandmother only speaks Japanese, having been raised when the Japanese controlled that island, and then there’s the Egyptian guy and the two Anglos. Maybe it would be different if there was a large Japanese population in Toronto, or if I was taking Mandarin or Cantonese, who do have large populations in the Toronto area. Large being defined as ‘has own neighbourhoods, local TV channels, and newspapers’. ---
**Author:** ![ToeJam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/dfb087/32.png) [@ToeJam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ToeJam)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2009, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/final-high-school-exams-nsw-the-ten-most-popular-languages/514423/37 "2009-10-21T20:09:27Z")
:nod: put me down as another vote for Latin being one of the most useful things I ever took. It’s served me well throughout my years in college, and grad school and now in medical school the heads up it gives me is really kinda invaluable. ---
**Author:** ![FlyingRamenMonster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@FlyingRamenMonster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FlyingRamenMonster)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2009, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/final-high-school-exams-nsw-the-ten-most-popular-languages/514423/38 "2009-10-22T01:09:54Z")
> [@Sunspace](#): > > And meanwhile, the actual beginners aren’t being served well? > > In the Japanese course I’m taking, the class is 3/4 asian… but there are only 12 of us. And everyone is an actual beginner. Some may be of Japanese ancestry; some have Chinese ancestry; one is taking the class because his Taiwanese grandmother only speaks Japanese, having been raised when the Japanese controlled that island, and then there’s the Egyptian guy and the two Anglos. Like I said, Chinese is different, probably because there aren’t enough French/German/Japanese people over here to dominate a French/German/Japanese class. Right from the start it is full of Chinese kids who already speak Chinese, but there are also real beginners who don’t speak any Chinese and it’s quite possible for them to get good marks too since it is a beginner class, after all. The problem comes after year 10 if you choose it as a tertiary exam subject because your final result is scaled, and all the Chinese students get scores of 90+, putting the median ridiculously high and screwing anyone who scores below it, even if it was a quite solid score like 80 or (God help them) 70 (for comparison, in my TEE French class, scores above 70 were relatively rare). It hugely discourages anyone from learning Chinese beyond year 10 because they’re pretty much guaranteed a terrible mark. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2009, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/final-high-school-exams-nsw-the-ten-most-popular-languages/514423/39 "2009-10-22T01:15:00Z")
I was wondering why **Cunctator** would tag a thread about High School Exams as **N** ot **S** afe for **W** ork. :o ---
**Author:** ![Kyla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/eada6e/32.png) [@Kyla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kyla)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2009, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/final-high-school-exams-nsw-the-ten-most-popular-languages/514423/40 "2009-10-22T05:19:05Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > I did. Two years of Spanish, two years of Latin. Spanish may have been more useful, but Latin was a hell of a lot more fun. But you didn’t take them at the same time, did you? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/final-high-school-exams-nsw-the-ten-most-popular-languages/514423.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/final-high-school-exams-nsw-the-ten-most-popular-languages/514423.md?page=3)