# Final Scene Shakespearean Body Counts **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [August 23, 2006, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/final-scene-shakespearean-body-counts/369900 "2006-08-23T16:33:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![flodnak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/838e76/32.png) [@flodnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flodnak)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2006, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/final-scene-shakespearean-body-counts/369900/1 "2006-08-23T16:33:35Z")
My twelve-year-old son is learning about Shakespeare in English class. What can I say, he’s not your average kid, and he doesn’t have your average English teacher 🆒 Anyway, we were discussing the Bard and started talking about the Tragedies tending to end up, as good tragedies will, with multiple bodies on the stage. We were wondering which one has the highest pile when the final curtain goes down? For instance, take Hamlet. Laertes falls first, then Gertrude, then Claudius, and last of all Hamlet himself (who was the first to get the poison, but never mind). This gives Hamlet a score of four. Romeo and Juliet, on the other hand, only has the title characters dead on stage, for a patheticly low body count of two. So, Shakespeare buffs, can you help a kid and his mom out? Which Shakespeare plays have particularly bloody endings? Any to beat out Hamlet? I confess I’ve barely dipped my toes in the Histories and have read fewer than half of the Tragedies… ---
**Author:** ![Alistair\_McCello](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/58956e/32.png) [@Alistair\_McCello](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alistair_McCello)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2006, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/final-scene-shakespearean-body-counts/369900/2 "2006-08-23T16:52:29Z")
For some reason Wikipedia won’t allow me to view the page so I am going from memory here. I recal hearing that MacBeth was Shakespear’s bloodiest play in terms of bodycount, but if you are asking specifically about the body pile in the last scene then I am not sure if it beats Hamlet as I can’t recal the final scene. ---
**Author:** ![Giles](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giles/32/60_2.png) [@Giles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giles)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2006, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/final-scene-shakespearean-body-counts/369900/3 "2006-08-23T16:53:40Z")
> [@flodnak](#): > > For instance, take Hamlet. Laertes falls first, then Gertrude, then Claudius, and last of all Hamlet himself (who was the first to get the poison, but never mind). This gives Hamlet a score of four. Romeo and Juliet, on the other hand, only has the title characters dead on stage, for a patheticly low body count of two. Well, R&J is an odd case, because until the death of Romeo it could well have a happy ending. Most of the people in Verona would seem to be pretty happy to let the feud end, and having the marriage of R&J there as a done deal (but with the two still alive) might have easily ended it. On the other hand, in Hamlet you have the King, Queen and the heir to the throne all dead in the last scene, when Fortinbras walks in, so it’s not just the death of four characters, but the conquest of Denmark by Norway as well: pretty serious stuff. In some of the historical plays, you have the deaths of hundreds (even if they aren’t all on stage), e.g., at the Battle of Agincourt in Henry V, with the death of the English boys accompanying the army, and of the cream of the French nobility. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_Torque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Max\_Torque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_Torque)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2006, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/final-scene-shakespearean-body-counts/369900/4 "2006-08-23T16:55:03Z")
Well, there’s always “Titus Andronicus”, which features some 14 murders, plus dismemberments, live burial, rape, and cannibalism. The grand finale has either four or six deaths, depending on when you start counting, since you may or may not choose to count the deaths of Lavinia’s sons as part of the finale. I’m not real sure why I’m spoilerboxing the finale of a 400+ year old play, but there ya go. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_Torque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Max\_Torque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_Torque)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2006, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/final-scene-shakespearean-body-counts/369900/5 "2006-08-23T16:56:18Z")
Sorry, that should be Tamora’s name in the spoiler box above, not Lavinia. Stupid mixup. ---
**Author:** ![Giles](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giles/32/60_2.png) [@Giles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giles)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2006, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/final-scene-shakespearean-body-counts/369900/6 "2006-08-23T17:00:23Z")
The score given at the end of the Battle of Agincourt: > [@King Henry V in Henry V](#): > > This Note doth tell me of ten thousand French > That in the field lye slaine: of Princes in this number, > And Nobles bearing Banners, there lye dead > One hundred twentie six: added to these, > Of Knights, Esquires, and gallant Gentlemen, > Eight thousand and foure hundred: of the which, > Fiue hundred were but yesterday dubb’d Knights. > So that in these ten thousand they haue lost, > There are but sixteene hundred Mercenaries: > The rest are Princes, Barons, Lords, Knights, Squires, > And Gentlemen of bloud and qualitie. > The Names of those their Nobles that lye dead: > Charles Delabreth, High Constable of France, > Iaques of Chatilion, Admirall of France, > The Master of the Crosse-bowes, Lord Rambures, > Great Master of France, the braue Sir Guichard Dolphin, > Iohn Duke of Alanson, Anthonie Duke of Brabant, > The Brother to the Duke of Burgundie, > And Edward Duke of Barr: of lustie Earles, > Grandpree and Roussie, Fauconbridge and Foyes, > Beaumont and Marle, Vandemont and Lestrale. > Here was a Royall fellowship of death. > Where is the number of our English dead? > Edward the Duke of Yorke, the Earle of Suffolke, > Sir Richard Ketly, Dauy Gam Esquire; > None else of name: and of all other men, > But fiue and twentie. must beat any number of the dead in any of the tragedies. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2006, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/final-scene-shakespearean-body-counts/369900/7 "2006-08-23T17:36:24Z")
If we’re counting all deaths of characters we actually meet, not soldiers on the battlefield and not limited to the final scene, R+J comes out much better. **Romeo and Juliet** : Tybalt, Paris, Mercutio, Romeo and Juliet. **Hamlet** : Hamlet Sr., Polonius, Ophelia, Laertes, Gerturde, Claudius and Hamlet Jr. **Macbeth** : Lady Macduff, Banquo, Lady Macbeth, Duncan and Macbeth **King Lear** : Regan, Goneril, Edmund, Cordelia and Lear (although sometimes not the last two or three.) But Titus, which I always think of as the bloodiest and most disturbing, actually ties with Hamlet on actual deaths, unless I’m forgetting some (which, according to **Max Torque** , I am. Who are the other 7, **Max**? I admit to not knowing Titus well at all): **Titus Andronicus** : Aaron, Lavinia, Tamora, Chiron and Demetrius and Titus Andronicus and… ---
**Author:** ![Zsofia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/7bcc69/32.png) [@Zsofia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zsofia)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2006, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/final-scene-shakespearean-body-counts/369900/8 "2006-08-23T17:55:28Z")
Didn’t somebody’s mother die off-stage at the end of Romeo and Juliet, also? ---
**Author:** ![Kizarvexius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/da6949/32.png) [@Kizarvexius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kizarvexius)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2006, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/final-scene-shakespearean-body-counts/369900/9 "2006-08-23T18:33:38Z")
> [@flodnak](#): > > My twelve-year-old son is learning about Shakespeare in English class. What can I say, he’s not your average kid, and he doesn’t have your average English teacher 🆒 Excellent. It’s the kids who are turned on to the coolness of the classics at an early age that ensure that all of the morons will continue to be tortured with them for generations to come. I had a teacher in fifth grade who adored Shakespeare, and made it contagious. > [@flodnak](#): > > For instance, take Hamlet. Laertes falls first, then Gertrude, then Claudius, and last of all Hamlet himself (who was the first to get the poison, but never mind). This gives Hamlet a score of four. But the English ambassadors also arrive to announce that Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are dead. So, although technically they are not onstage at the time, their deaths do come as a revelation, and may therefore be considered part of the finale body count. Unlike Tybalt, who is technically onstage at the end of \*Romeo and Juliet \* (as a corpse in the tomb), but was killed onstage earlier in the show, and would not be included in the finale body count. YMMV. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_Torque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Max\_Torque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_Torque)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2006, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/final-scene-shakespearean-body-counts/369900/10 "2006-08-23T19:07:04Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > But Titus, which I always think of as the bloodiest and most disturbing, actually ties with Hamlet on actual deaths, unless I’m forgetting some (which, according to **Max Torque** , I am. Who are the other 7, **Max**? I admit to not knowing Titus well at all): > > **Titus Andronicus** : Aaron, Lavinia, Tamora, Chiron and Demetrius and Titus Andronicus and… Well, going by a summary I found on the web: the play begins with Titus laying to rest a son who died in battle. It is then declared that Alarbus, eldest son of Tamora, shall be sacrificed, which happens offstage. Shortly after Saturninus is named emperor, Titus stabs and kills one of his own sons, Mutius. Later, Bassianus (brother of Saturninus) is killed just before Lavinia is raped and has her tongue cut out and hands cut off. Two more of Titus’s sons, Quintus and Martius, are (wrongly) put to death for the murder of Bassianus. Much later, Aaron kills a nurse because she knows that Aaron fathered a child by the unfaithful Tamora, and calls for the midwife that he may kill her as well. And finally, Titus captures and kills Chiron and Demetrius, bakes them into meat pies, and feeds to Tamora the flesh of her own sons. Grand finale: Titus kills Lavinia, Titus kills Tamora, Saturninus kills Titus, Lucius kills Saturninus. And then, epilogue: Aaron is buried alive, and Tamora’s body is thrown to the dogs rather than receiving an honorable burial. By my reckoning, without counting the deaths of Titus’s first son (the one just brought home for burial) and the midwife, that makes 13. Including those two makes a total of 15. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2006, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/final-scene-shakespearean-body-counts/369900/11 "2006-08-23T19:24:37Z")
> [@flodnak](#): > > For instance, take Hamlet. Laertes falls first, then Gertrude, then Claudius, and last of all Hamlet himself (who was the first to get the poison, but never mind). This gives Hamlet a score of four. Romeo and Juliet, on the other hand, only has the title characters dead on stage, for a patheticly low body count of two. Three. Romeo kills Paris before he offs himself. Another poster is correct that Romeo’s mother dies of grief after his banishment, but if I understand the OP correctly, we’re only talking about people who die onstage in the last scenes of plays. > [@Giles](#): > > Well, R&J is an odd case, because until the death of Romeo it could well have a happy ending. It’s basically a comedy until Tybalt dies. But you’re right that hope is alive until that time. I was a little surprised to see only one death in the last scene of Julius Caesar. There are two other suicides in the last act, but they’re in a different scene. ---
**Author:** ![Bill\_Door](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@Bill\_Door](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bill_Door)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2006, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/final-scene-shakespearean-body-counts/369900/12 "2006-08-24T00:15:06Z")
I think you missed some in Hamlet. Polonius is stabbed in the arras, that’s gotta hurt, and Rosencrantz and Guilderstern have death warrents issued against them, although their deaths do occur off stage. Ophelia commits suicide by drowning. That brings the body count up to eight, which I think matches “Pulp Fiction”, although there’s no anal rape in “Hamlet”. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2006, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/final-scene-shakespearean-body-counts/369900/13 "2006-08-24T00:17:53Z")
Maybe I’m the only one who thinks he didn’t understand the first post. **flodnak** , are you talking about the final body count for the whole play, or just the number of deaths in the last scene? ---
**Author:** ![VampyChick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/5daacb/32.png) [@VampyChick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VampyChick)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2006, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/final-scene-shakespearean-body-counts/369900/14 "2006-08-24T01:45:00Z")
If we’re going by \*bodies \*onstage, not deaths, R+J’s final scene actually ties Hamlet’s. Paris, Romeo, and Juliet, plus they’re in the tomb with Tybalt’s body. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Mighty\_Loa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f4b2a3/32.png) [@The\_Mighty\_Loa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Mighty_Loa)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2006, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/final-scene-shakespearean-body-counts/369900/15 "2006-08-24T03:56:39Z")
> [@Max Torque](#): > > Well, going by a summary I found on the web: the play begins with Titus laying to rest a son who died in battle. It is then declared that Alarbus, eldest son of Tamora, shall be sacrificed, which happens offstage. Shortly after Saturninus is named emperor, Titus stabs and kills one of his own sons, Mutius. Later, Bassianus (brother of Saturninus) is killed just before Lavinia is raped and has her tongue cut out and hands cut off. Two more of Titus’s sons, Quintus and Martius, are (wrongly) put to death for the murder of Bassianus. Much later, Aaron kills a nurse because she knows that Aaron fathered a child by the unfaithful Tamora, and calls for the midwife that he may kill her as well. And finally, Titus captures and kills Chiron and Demetrius, bakes them into meat pies, and feeds to Tamora the flesh of her own sons. Grand finale: Titus kills Lavinia, Titus kills Tamora, Saturninus kills Titus, Lucius kills Saturninus. And then, epilogue: Aaron is buried alive, and Tamora’s body is thrown to the dogs rather than receiving an honorable burial. > > By my reckoning, without counting the deaths of Titus’s first son (the one just brought home for burial) and the midwife, that makes 13. Including those two makes a total of 15. In some productions, Tamora’s son by Aaron is put to death as well. But it’s a directorial choice, since the baby’s death isn’t mentioned directly in the text. ---
**Author:** ![NDP](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ndp/32/55_2.png) [@NDP](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NDP)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2006, 7:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/final-scene-shakespearean-body-counts/369900/16 "2006-08-24T07:04:04Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > If we’re counting all deaths of characters we actually meet, not soldiers on the battlefield and not limited to the final scene, R+J comes out much better. > > **Romeo and Juliet** : Tybalt, Paris, Mercutio, Romeo and Juliet. > > **Hamlet** : Hamlet Sr., Polonius, Ophelia, Laertes, Gerturde, Claudius and Hamlet Jr. > > **Macbeth** : Lady Macduff, Banquo, Lady Macbeth, Duncan and Macbeth > > **King Lear** : Regan, Goneril, Edmund, Cordelia and Lear (although sometimes not the last two or three.) > > But Titus, which I always think of as the bloodiest and most disturbing, actually ties with Hamlet on actual deaths, unless I’m forgetting some (which, according to **Max Torque** , I am. Who are the other 7, **Max**? I admit to not knowing Titus well at all): > > **Titus Andronicus** : Aaron, Lavinia, Tamora, Chiron and Demetrius and Titus Andronicus and… It that’s the case, **Richard III** has a pretty impressive body count: Prince Edward, Henry VI, Clarence, Rivers, Grey, Vaughan, Hastings, the two Princes, Lady Anne, Buckingham, and Richard III. That’s at least 12 right there (I could be leaving somebody out). ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2006, 10:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/final-scene-shakespearean-body-counts/369900/17 "2006-08-24T10:20:30Z")
> [@The Mighty Loa](#): > > In some productions, Tamora’s son by Aaron is put to death as well. But it’s a directorial choice, since the baby’s death isn’t mentioned directly in the text. The movie really goes to a good place with this. I love that final scene! Btw, what’s the body count in Vincent Price’s THEATRE OF BLOOD? ---
**Author:** ![flodnak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/838e76/32.png) [@flodnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flodnak)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2006, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/final-scene-shakespearean-body-counts/369900/18 "2006-08-26T17:26:28Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > **flodnak** , are you talking about the final body count for the whole play, or just the number of deaths in the last scene? Sorry, didn’t mean to abandon this thread… been a busy week with stuff happening at work and the kids going back to school :smack: Anyway, I specifically wanted to know about the body count in just the final scene. The kid’s twelve, nothing about Shakespeare is going to get his attention like a pile of dead bodies on stage when the final curtain falls… ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2006, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/final-scene-shakespearean-body-counts/369900/19 "2006-08-26T20:01:47Z")
> [@NDP](#): > > It that’s the case, **Richard III** has a pretty impressive body count: Prince Edward, Henry VI, Clarence, Rivers, Grey, Vaughan, Hastings, the two Princes, Lady Anne, Buckingham, and Richard III. That’s at least 12 right there (I could be leaving somebody out). When my Shakespeare class produced **Richard III** we had about fifty students for a play with about forty speaking roles. Most of the extras became soldiers in the two armies, and we ended up with something like eight dead soldiers scattered across the stage in addition to Richard and Brackenridge. (Brackenridge has no lines in that final scene, but somebody does mention that he’s dead at the very end.) ---
**Author:** ![appleciders](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85f322/32.png) [@appleciders](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/appleciders)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2006, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/final-scene-shakespearean-body-counts/369900/20 "2006-08-27T03:50:40Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > It’s basically a comedy until Tybalt dies. But you’re right that hope is alive until that time. I’d have said it’s a comedy until Mercutio dies. That’s the first moment that anything deadly serious happens. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/final-scene-shakespearean-body-counts/369900.md?page=2)