# Finally! A critical article of AA in a mainstream publication! **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [March 25, 2015, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finally-a-critical-article-of-aa-in-a-mainstream-publication/715964 "2015-03-25T19:47:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Claverhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/13edae/32.png) [@Claverhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Claverhouse)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2015, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finally-a-critical-article-of-aa-in-a-mainstream-publication/715964/61 "2015-03-27T13:39:15Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > Not that I have a specific opinion on AA, but the “it failed because you did it wrong” excuse is common to lots of different kinds of woo. Indeed: ‘_[del]Christianity[/del]/[del]Communism[/del]/[del]Hitlerism[/del] has not been tried and found wanting; it has been found difficult and not tried_.’ is scarcely uncommon amongst those with strong faith; but faith goes beyond the call of duty in stringing that particular collection of barely related statements. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2015, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finally-a-critical-article-of-aa-in-a-mainstream-publication/715964/62 "2015-03-27T13:47:52Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > Not that I have a specific opinion on AA, but the “it failed because you did it wrong” excuse is common to lots of different kinds of woo. To be fair to AA, common to lots of legitimate treatment regimens as well. My great-grandfather had an amputation because he didn’t treat his diabetes correctly. My doctor always tells me to continue taking an antibiotic until the pills are gone even if I feel better after a few days. And woo treatments too, of course. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2015, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finally-a-critical-article-of-aa-in-a-mainstream-publication/715964/63 "2015-03-27T14:13:03Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > I disagree. As to your first and third points, AA does not require a belief in “woo” or any particular religion. It specifically talks about how agnostics can work the steps. All one has to do is believe in a power greater than himself. That’s not really hard to do as has been noted, some use the group itself as a higher power. One can be an atheist and also realize that he is not the most powerful thing in the universe. > … I have nothing against AA. The only “recovering alcoholic” I know credits her recovery to AA. But I went with her to an open meeting once, and no, there is no way to follow the 12 steps without adopting a form of religion that looks an awful lot like Christianity with the names changed. Also, I am a religious tourist. I enjoy attending a wide variety of religious services. So I think that when I say, “that meeting was a religious service, in everything but name” a can do so with some understanding of what I am claiming. The “higher power” described by AA has an awful lot of the attributes of Jesus Christ. As a practicer of a religion (Judaism) with a different idea of the relationship between man and God, I felt hit over the head with the Christian-esque nature of that meeting. The woman who took me there disagreed, and was somewhat offended by my observations, so I had to drop the subject. But she grew up an atheist and has essentially no reference to compare it to. Yes, AA avoids naming its God, I mean, “higher power”. And it is light on ritual. But I believe it is an obvious outgrowth of Christianity, nonetheless. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2015, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finally-a-critical-article-of-aa-in-a-mainstream-publication/715964/64 "2015-03-27T14:22:22Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > I disagree. As to your first and third points, AA does not require a belief in “woo” or any particular religion. It specifically talks about how agnostics can work the steps. All one has to do is believe in a power greater than himself. That’s not really hard to do as has been noted, some use the group itself as a higher power. One can be an atheist and also realize that he is not the most powerful thing in the universe. If you think an Atheist can be comfortable in a 12 step meeting the only thing that tells me is that you are not an Atheist. ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2015, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finally-a-critical-article-of-aa-in-a-mainstream-publication/715964/65 "2015-03-27T14:22:34Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > I have nothing against AA. The only “recovering alcoholic” I know credits her recovery to AA. But I went with her to an open meeting once, and no, there is no way to follow the 12 steps without adopting a form of religion that looks an awful lot like Christianity with the names changed. Even as an atheist, the pseudo-religion is not the part about AA that bothers me the most. A religious framework is a good one for a program based on community bonding and support. That said, it certainly is a problem for some unknown but not insignificant number of people who don’t want to play not-Jesus games in their attempt at control. That AA is utterly unscientific and based on jackleg psych/hunch/woo/moralism is its failing… not just because it was created by an amateur a long time ago, but because it so strongly, and even proudly resists any kind of study or validation. In every thread like this, every discussion anywhere, some convert will pop up to vociferously argue against even the possibility of study or analysis “just cuz that’s how it works.” I guess you just… gotta believe. And I’m glad to see that an increasing number of people don’t think that’s good enough any more. It’s a serious problem; it deserves a solution that isn’t stuck in a 1930s social-moral matrix. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2015, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finally-a-critical-article-of-aa-in-a-mainstream-publication/715964/66 "2015-03-27T14:26:29Z")
> [@Amateur\_Barbarian](#): > > Even as an atheist, the pseudo-religion is not the part about AA that bothers me the most. A religious framework is a good one for a program based on community bonding and support. That said, it certainly is a problem for some unknown but not insignificant number of people who don’t want to play not-Jesus games in their attempt at control. > > That AA is utterly unscientific and based on jackleg psych/hunch/woo/moralism is its failing… not just because it was created by an amateur a long time ago, but because it so strongly, and even proudly resists any kind of study or validation. In every thread like this, every discussion anywhere, some convert will pop up to vociferously argue against even the possibility of study or analysis “just cuz that’s how it works.” > > I guess you just… gotta believe. And I’m glad to see that an increasing number of people don’t think that’s good enough any more. It’s a serious problem; it deserves a solution that isn’t stuck in a 1930s social-moral matrix. If you can stand the religious aspects it’s fine. Becoming a productive member of society? Being honest? Trying to practice principles in ALL of your affairs? That sounds like a pretty good moral framework to me. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2015, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finally-a-critical-article-of-aa-in-a-mainstream-publication/715964/67 "2015-03-27T14:32:08Z")
> [@Amateur\_Barbarian](#): > > I have much stronger opinions about AA than most but I don’t think there’s anything productive in criticizing them from this angle. After all, there’s no “organization” to castigate; it’s like trying to bring down astrology or UFOism or hot stone massage. Yes it is like that, but it requires a stronger approach than just pointing to alternatives. They are enabling people to continue problem drinking. I don’t really care that much if people want to drink themselves into a grave, that’s their business, but AA helps drunk drivers get back on the street and I don’t want their drinking putting me or anyone else into a grave. At the moment we are doing almost nothing for people who have drinking problems and considering AA as a solution is preventing the development of more effective treatments. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2015, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finally-a-critical-article-of-aa-in-a-mainstream-publication/715964/68 "2015-03-27T14:37:22Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > Yes it is like that, but it requires a stronger approach than just pointing to alternatives. They are enabling people to continue problem drinking. I don’t really care that much if people want to drink themselves into a grave, that’s their business, but AA helps drunk drivers get back on the street and I don’t want their drinking putting me or anyone else into a grave. At the moment we are doing almost nothing for people who have drinking problems and considering AA as a solution is preventing the development of more effective treatments. Yes but you are missing something. For the people that the program works for it works very very well. I agree there need to be alternatives of course. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2015, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finally-a-critical-article-of-aa-in-a-mainstream-publication/715964/69 "2015-03-27T14:42:01Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > Yes but you are missing something. For the people that the program works for it works very very well. I agree there need to be alternatives of course. That’s a very small percentage of the people, and I’ve seen analysis showing that the same percentage of people stop drinking with no treatment at all. By your logic we should tell people not to get treatment at all because for those people lack of treatment works very very well. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2015, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finally-a-critical-article-of-aa-in-a-mainstream-publication/715964/70 "2015-03-27T14:46:33Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > That’s a very small percentage of the people, and I’ve seen analysis showing that the same percentage of people stop drinking with no treatment at all. By your logic we should tell people not to get treatment at all because for those people lack of treatment works very very well. Have you ever been a member of the 12 steps? It works really well for the people who like it. Imagine your closest 3 friends you have. Now imagine walking into a room of 20 people that you have the same strong, tight bond with. I don’t miss all the religious crap in the 12 steps but I sure do miss the camaraderie and fellowship. I’ve never seen a closer group of people. To say the 12 steps have no value at all is simply untrue. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2015, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finally-a-critical-article-of-aa-in-a-mainstream-publication/715964/71 "2015-03-27T14:54:53Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > Have you ever been a member of the 12 steps? It works really well for the people who like it. Imagine your closest 3 friends you have. Now imagine walking into a room of 20 people that you have the same strong, tight bond with. I don’t miss all the religious crap in the 12 steps but I sure do miss the camaraderie and fellowship. I’ve never seen a closer group of people. To say the 12 steps have no value at all is simply untrue. Sorry, but I can get that same experience walking into a bar. It’s great to have friends and camaraderie, but that’s clearly not an effective means of dealing with alcohol problems outside of a few people. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2015, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finally-a-critical-article-of-aa-in-a-mainstream-publication/715964/72 "2015-03-27T14:58:04Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > Sorry, but I can get that same experience walking into a bar. It’s great to have friends and camaraderie, but that’s clearly not an effective means of dealing with alcohol problems outside of a few people. So I don’t guess you have been a member of the 12 steps then? Friends you meet in a bar are superficial. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2015, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finally-a-critical-article-of-aa-in-a-mainstream-publication/715964/73 "2015-03-27T15:09:56Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > So I don’t guess you have been a member of the 12 steps then? Friends you meet in a bar are superficial. I met some of my best friends at bars. We do not have superficial relationships. And no I’ve never been a 12 step program, but again, your own good experience is not evidence that it is a valuable program in itself. I’ve pointed out the problem, AA is enabling problem drinking in some of it’s failures, I can’t say what that percentage is, but considering that AA fails more than 90% of the time it doesn’t look good. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2015, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finally-a-critical-article-of-aa-in-a-mainstream-publication/715964/74 "2015-03-27T15:11:42Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > Yes but you are missing something. For the people that the program works for it works very very well. I agree there need to be alternatives of course. I’ve already said, and I think most here agree, that we don’t have a problem with individuals choosing to do AA if it works for them. That being said, you have no idea if another intervention might have worked, perhaps even better, even for “the people that the program works for.” Perhaps those people for whom AA works would also respond well to something that doesn’t take so much time away from their families, or encourage them to break relationships. Perhaps there is some treatment that could be developed that could allow them to drink occasionally or in moderation, thereby relieving them of the lifelong anxiety of accidentally consuming alcohol and instantly reverting back to their alcoholic behaviors. Yes, for those people for whom AA works, it works…but maybe something else would work _better_. You just don’t know. None of us do. And that’s the problem. ---
**Author:** ![eclectic\_wench](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ac91a4/32.png) [@eclectic\_wench](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eclectic_wench)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2015, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finally-a-critical-article-of-aa-in-a-mainstream-publication/715964/75 "2015-03-27T15:16:42Z")
I’m lucky enough to have no first-hand or even second-hand experience of alcoholism or AA, touch wood, so I’m not coming to this with any preconceptions or strong feelings about AA either way. But this: > [@](#): > > Originally Posted by AA > Rarely have we seen a person fail who has thoroughly followed our path. Those who do not recover are people who cannot or will not completely give themselves to this simple program, usually men and women who are constitutionally incapable of being honest with themselves. There are such unfortunates. They are not at fault; they seem to have been born that way. This has more red flags than a Communist parade. That right there is cult-speak. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2015, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finally-a-critical-article-of-aa-in-a-mainstream-publication/715964/76 "2015-03-27T15:19:05Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > I met some of my best friends at bars. We do not have superficial relationships. And no I’ve never been a 12 step program, but again, your own good experience is not evidence that it is a valuable program in itself. I’ve pointed out the problem, AA is enabling problem drinking in some of it’s failures, I can’t say what that percentage is, but considering that AA fails more than 90% of the time it doesn’t look good. I don’t doubt that you’ve met some of your best friends at bars. I’m saying that when you walk into a 12 step meeting you have a room full of people that have the same connection that you have to your closest friends. It is form of solidarity I’ve seen nowhere else in life. When you say it fails for 90% of the people, that seems a bit high to me, but maybe it is 90%. The point is though for half the people in the meeting are regular members who come week after week, month after month year after year. That’s half the people in the room. The other 50% breaks down (in simple terms) to 25% of the people struggling but still coming to meetings and 25% of people who just come in and out and don’t even try the program and never stick around. These revolving door members come in and out and in and out and skew the numbers to make it look like a unsuccessful program. Look, I don’t want to be rude but it seems like you have an agenda or a bias against the 12 steps. I’m NOT saying it is the best method and I’m NOT saying we don’t seriously need alternatives. I’m saying there are some very valuable parts of the program you are overlooking. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2015, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finally-a-critical-article-of-aa-in-a-mainstream-publication/715964/77 "2015-03-27T15:21:05Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > I’ve already said, and I think most here agree, that we don’t have a problem with individuals choosing to do AA if it works for them. That being said, you have no idea if another intervention might have worked, perhaps even better, even for “the people that the program works for.” Perhaps those people for whom AA works would also respond well to something that doesn’t take so much time away from their families, or encourage them to break relationships. Perhaps there is some treatment that could be developed that could allow them to drink occasionally or in moderation, thereby relieving them of the lifelong anxiety of accidentally consuming alcohol and instantly reverting back to their alcoholic behaviors. Yes, for those people for whom AA works, it works…but maybe something else would work _better_. You just don’t know. > > None of us do. And that’s the problem. Yes, but do these other methods give you a (potentially) life long group of very close friends??? ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2015, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finally-a-critical-article-of-aa-in-a-mainstream-publication/715964/78 "2015-03-27T15:29:31Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > Yes, but do these other methods give you a (potentially) life long group of very close friends??? My friends give me a lifelong group of very close friends. AA does not exist to give you friends. Giving you friends is a nice sideline, it really is, except when those friends fall off the wagon and drag you off, instead of you dragging them back on. I’ve seen that happen a lot. And when dysfunctional singles meet in AA; that always ends…dramatically. But, limiting ourselves to the positive relationships for a moment, I do know exactly the kind of bonds you’re talking about; I’ve made them in other self improvement and religious settings. And they are euphoric and amazing and wonderful and valuable, and please don’t think I’m putting them down. I’m not. But they’re completely besides the point. When we’re talking about whether AA “works”, we’re not talking about whether it helps you make friends. We’re talking about whether it helps people stop their problem drinking behaviors, and we’re wondering if it helps people stop their problem drinking behaviors any more or less than other treatment options. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2015, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finally-a-critical-article-of-aa-in-a-mainstream-publication/715964/79 "2015-03-27T15:33:50Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > And when dysfunctional singles meet in AA; that always ends…dramatically. Well, thats true I agree its not the best method. I just got the impression people didn’t know the 12 steps also had some very tangible benefits. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2015, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finally-a-critical-article-of-aa-in-a-mainstream-publication/715964/80 "2015-03-27T15:36:52Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > Yes, but do these other methods give you a (potentially) life long group of very close friends??? I would hope the other programs would not allow you to misuse the program and/or the other participants in that fashion. It almost sounds as if you would hate not to have your disease for fear of losing your group meetings along with it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finally-a-critical-article-of-aa-in-a-mainstream-publication/715964.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finally-a-critical-article-of-aa-in-a-mainstream-publication/715964.md?page=5)