# Finally, an "official" recognition of the effects of psychedelics **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [July 11, 2006, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finally-an-official-recognition-of-the-effects-of-psychedelics/363978 "2006-07-11T04:52:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2006, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finally-an-official-recognition-of-the-effects-of-psychedelics/363978/21 "2006-07-13T16:28:29Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > Maybe so, but that’s hardly relevant to a claim that was clearly about the _general_ harmlessness of the drug. Nothing is completely harmless, all drugs fall somewhere on a scale of risk. But I think it’s hypocritical of our society to ban anything that is demonstratably less harmfull than tobacco (which kills half a million people a year). ---
**Author:** ![II\_Gyan\_II](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/bbe5ce/32.png) [@II\_Gyan\_II](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/II_Gyan_II)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2006, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finally-an-official-recognition-of-the-effects-of-psychedelics/363978/22 "2006-07-13T16:52:59Z")
> [@Excalibre](#): > > But the idea that they are _absolutely harmless_, when drugs that have comparably much milder effects on the mind can be quite dangerous, simply strikes me as rather hard to believe. Another straw man. I didn’t say they were “absolutely harmless”. I admitted that having a bad trip is a possible effect. > [@](#): > > Especially the bits about it being impossible to overdose on them. That’s easily [verified](http://www.americanscientist.org/template/AssetDetail/assetid/50773/page/4) (check out the graph). > [@](#): > > at least some risk of serious pharmalogical side effects strikes me as, quite simply, extraordinary. Oh, there is a risk of flashbacks, but those are pretty rare. A bad trip is relatively lot more likely. For an authoritative confirmation, check out this [assessment](http://www.tdpf.org.uk/dutchmushroomstudy.pdf)(PDF) by the Dutch Ministry of Health’s Coordination Centre for the Assessment and Monitoring of new drugs: > [@](#): > > The Coordination Centre for the Assessment and Monitoring of new drugs (CAM) has carried out a risk assessment on psychotropic mushrooms containing the active substances psilocin and psilocybin. > This drug is not associated with physical or psychological dependency, acute toxicity is largely limited to possible panic and anxiety attacks and, in terms of chronic toxicity, the worst that can happen are flashbacks. Consequently, the use of paddos (hallucinogenic mushrooms) does not, on balance, present any risk to the health of the individual. This assessment was carried out because psilocybin mushrooms are now regulated as food items, and sold openly. ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2006, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finally-an-official-recognition-of-the-effects-of-psychedelics/363978/23 "2006-07-13T22:47:17Z")
> [@II Gyan II](#): > > This assessment was carried out because psilocybin mushrooms are now regulated as food items, and sold openly. My god! Sold openly?! So I assume that Dutch society is on the verge of collapse, with people raping and pilaging and going insane off shrooms, right? :smack: ---
**Author:** ![II\_Gyan\_II](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/bbe5ce/32.png) [@II\_Gyan\_II](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/II_Gyan_II)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2006, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finally-an-official-recognition-of-the-effects-of-psychedelics/363978/24 "2006-07-14T00:31:48Z")
> [@Blalron](#): > > My god! Sold openly?! So I assume that Dutch society is on the verge of collapse, with people raping and pilaging and going insane off shrooms, right? :smack: Atleast Amsterdam should be, but give it time. > [@](#): > > In the Netherlands, it is estimated that there are about 120–150 smartshops, although the exact number is unknown (13). These shops are concentrated in Amsterdam and sell legal and predominately natural products, including magic mushrooms. They are also sold in a few coffee shops (14). > > (13)Estimate provided by the Vereniging Landelijk Overleg Smartshops (Vlos) (2006), Dutch Association of Smart Shop Owners. > > (14)Coffee shops are shops were(sic) any adult can obtain and use small quantities of cannabis. ---
**Author:** ![Hostile\_Dialect](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e495f1/32.png) [@Hostile\_Dialect](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hostile_Dialect)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2006, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finally-an-official-recognition-of-the-effects-of-psychedelics/363978/25 "2006-07-14T01:44:16Z")
> [@Excalibre](#): > > I’ve heard such claims before - in particular from my father, who was a big ol’ hippie back in the day and used plenty of acid - but I’ve never heard any real evidence for them Er, how 'bout the fact that nobody’s ever overdosed on them? > [@Mangetout](#): > > Maybe so, but that’s hardly relevant to a claim that was clearly about the general harmlessness of the drug. Compared to alcohol and tobacco, it’s ridiculously safe. > [@II Gyan II](#): > > Oh, there is a risk of flashbacks, but those are pretty rare. A bad trip is relatively lot more likely. I’ve never taken shrooms, and the only time I tried to take acid it didn’t work; but IM(second-hand)E the flashbacks so commonly cited as awful and permanent side effects are not only very rare but are generally pleasant when they do come back, and often regarded as a “free trip”. ---
**Author:** ![neutron\_star](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/51bf81/32.png) [@neutron\_star](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/neutron_star)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2006, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finally-an-official-recognition-of-the-effects-of-psychedelics/363978/26 "2006-07-14T04:29:47Z")
> [@Excalibre](#): > > I got it from the radio show _Loveline_; one of the hosts (actually, I guess he’s the only host now) is an addiction medicine specialist who claimed that long term or heavy use of hallucinogens is associated with excitotoxicity to some part of the brain involving regulation of moods, and that heavy users of them tend to require permanent treatment with antidepressants. I’m obviously not competent to even really evaluate the literature on the subject (in fact, I wouldn’t know where to find it) but Dr. Drew has some expertise in drug treatment. I’d take anything that man has to say about drugs with a grain of salt. Dr. Drew is certainly not above playing fast and loose with the facts. I stopped paying attention to anything he had to say on the subject a few years back when he told a _Loveline_ caller that it was quite common for heavy marijuana smoking to cause men to grow breasts. :eek: ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2006, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finally-an-official-recognition-of-the-effects-of-psychedelics/363978/27 "2006-07-14T04:42:21Z")
Two words, people: [Shoehorn Butterhorse](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=38764) ---
**Author:** ![II\_Gyan\_II](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/bbe5ce/32.png) [@II\_Gyan\_II](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/II_Gyan_II)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2006, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finally-an-official-recognition-of-the-effects-of-psychedelics/363978/28 "2006-07-14T04:45:16Z")
Well, I’ve never been incoherent like that _wink_ ---
**Author:** ![Hostile\_Dialect](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e495f1/32.png) [@Hostile\_Dialect](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hostile_Dialect)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2006, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finally-an-official-recognition-of-the-effects-of-psychedelics/363978/29 "2006-07-14T05:06:05Z")
Dr. Drew’s an E-list celebrity more than he is a reputable doctor, IMO. He’s really good at sounding authoritative, though. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2006, 8:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finally-an-official-recognition-of-the-effects-of-psychedelics/363978/30 "2006-07-14T08:10:24Z")
> [@Blalron](#): > > Nothing is completely harmless, all drugs fall somewhere on a scale of risk. But I think it’s hypocritical of our society to ban anything that is demonstratably less harmfull than tobacco (which kills half a million people a year). Again, irrelevant. I’m not arguing for this drug to be banned, I’m nitpicking the ‘fear is the only side effect’ statement. ---
**Author:** ![Hostile\_Dialect](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e495f1/32.png) [@Hostile\_Dialect](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hostile_Dialect)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2006, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finally-an-official-recognition-of-the-effects-of-psychedelics/363978/31 "2006-07-15T00:20:33Z")
If you contend that injury to persons and property are side effects of psilocybin intoxication because they can be indirectly caused by same, I’d have to argue that you can list those as side effects of everything anyone can possibly do, especially recreational activities. An English soccer player missed significant playing time after breaking his foot while watching TV (a table fell on it or something) about 8 years ago, IIRC. Pittsburgh Steelers quarterback Ben Roethlisberger is lucky to be alive after recently being slammed into and knocked unconscious while riding a motorcycle without a helmet. A few major-league baseball players have injured themselves a small handful of times working on their cars. People from all walks of life have hurt themselves while skiing, mowing their lawns, repairing printers, and drinking alcohol. You could argue that all of the above activities, including watching TV, are dangerous and have death and personal injury as potential side effects, but _come on_, be rational. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2006, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finally-an-official-recognition-of-the-effects-of-psychedelics/363978/32 "2006-07-15T00:28:24Z")
Again, I am not trying to compare the relative safety of this or that, neither am I trying to justify the legality opr banishment of any particular drug or activity. The statement that fright is the only side effect of LSD is simply inaccurate, is all. [Random citation](http://66.249.93.104/search?q=cache:T59cLA9GPKMJ:www.betterhealth.vic.gov.au/bhcv2/bhcarticles.nsf/pages/Hallucinogens%3FOpenDocument+injury+hallucinogens&hl=en&gl=uk&ct=clnk&cd=1) > [@](#): > > Since a person’s sense of distance, time and objective reality are warped when under the influence of hallucinogens, serious injury and accidental death are real risks. ---
**Author:** ![II\_Gyan\_II](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/bbe5ce/32.png) [@II\_Gyan\_II](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/II_Gyan_II)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2006, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finally-an-official-recognition-of-the-effects-of-psychedelics/363978/33 "2006-07-15T02:26:49Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > The statement that fright is the only side effect of LSD is simply inaccurate, is all. This goes into semantic-shaping territory. What are the ‘side effects’ of drinking water? Does some effect that occurs to 1 in a billion consumers, count? What’s the eligibility criteria - statistically non-zero risk or “substantial” risk? If the latter, what’s the criteria for defining that? Hundreds of things have been reported to be the result of hallucinogen intoxication, like renal failure or coma, but these are all limited to a small number of individual case reports, and not on a statistically prevalent scale. Statistically, the main risk from ingesting LSD is “panic attacks” “anxiety”…etc. Flashbacks are a distant second. Similar to mushrooms - “_This drug is not associated with physical or psychological dependency, acute toxicity is largely limited to possible panic and anxiety attacks and, in terms of chronic toxicity, the worst that can happen are flashbacks. Consequently, the use of paddos (hallucinogenic mushrooms) does not, on balance, present any risk to the health of the individual._”. They also add later on, “_we have been pleasantly surprised by findings relating to the scale of use, the vulnerability of the user and the number and seriousness of incidents reported. The risk to public health is therefore judged to be low._”. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2006, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finally-an-official-recognition-of-the-effects-of-psychedelics/363978/34 "2006-07-15T21:58:39Z")
OK; so your cite seems to contradict mine. But thanks for at least addressing the point I was actually making. ---
**Author:** ![II\_Gyan\_II](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/bbe5ce/32.png) [@II\_Gyan\_II](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/II_Gyan_II)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2006, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finally-an-official-recognition-of-the-effects-of-psychedelics/363978/35 "2006-07-15T22:52:49Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > OK; so your cite seems to contradict mine. Technically your cite doesn’t provide evidence of risk (magnitude). It says that since reality-distorting effects occur, ergo there’s a ‘real’ risk of accidents, where I guess ‘real’ is supposed to connote ‘substantial’. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2006, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finally-an-official-recognition-of-the-effects-of-psychedelics/363978/36 "2006-07-16T00:04:34Z")
Fair enough; I believe it is very often the case that users of hallucinogenic drufgs want a ‘minder’ (or whatever is the correct term) - a person not under the influence who will stay with them and ensure they don’t do anything misadventurous. If nothing else, I think this indicates a perception of risk of harm due to altered state. ---
**Author:** ![II\_Gyan\_II](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/bbe5ce/32.png) [@II\_Gyan\_II](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/II_Gyan_II)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2006, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finally-an-official-recognition-of-the-effects-of-psychedelics/363978/37 "2006-07-16T00:15:56Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > I believe it is very often the case that users of hallucinogenic drufgs want a ‘minder’ (or whatever is the correct term) - a person not under the influence who will stay with them and ensure they don’t do anything misadventurous. If nothing else, I think this indicates a perception of risk of harm due to altered state. A ‘sitter’ is mostly advised for novice users of psychedelics. Their primary purpose is to provide comfort to the tripper and reassure them should they lapse into a confused/panic mode. Preventing misadventure is secondary, given that sitters aren’t necessarily sober themselves, although they do take lighter doses. After all, the sitter has to be present for the 4-8 hours that the “caretakee” is tripping, and one tends to get bored. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2006, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finally-an-official-recognition-of-the-effects-of-psychedelics/363978/38 "2006-07-16T04:31:34Z")
Anecdotally I’ll just say that I used heavy doses of hallucinogens (mostly LSD, but psilocybin and mescaline as well) every three days for a period of eight years. At no point did I run willy-nilly into oncoming traffic thinking that I was running with the bulls at Pamplona or anything of the sort. Of the hundreds and hundreds of times I indulged, I had an overall unpleasant experience exactly once, very early on, before I comprehended that the tolerance one acquires dissipates nearly as quickly as it builds up. Of course this was all in the remote past. As a complete non sequitur, I made it home from _A Scanner Darkly_ safely last night, too. _twitch_ ---
**Author:** ![Hostile\_Dialect](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e495f1/32.png) [@Hostile\_Dialect](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hostile_Dialect)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2006, 6:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finally-an-official-recognition-of-the-effects-of-psychedelics/363978/39 "2006-07-16T06:17:22Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > Fair enough; I believe it is very often the case that users of hallucinogenic drufgs want a ‘minder’ (or whatever is the correct term) - a person not under the influence who will stay with them and ensure they don’t do anything misadventurous. If nothing else, I think this indicates a perception of risk of harm due to altered state. Freak-outs, bad feelings, and negative “thought loops” (really very hard to explain) are common enough among newcomers, especially first-timers, and especially with the more powerful psychedelics, that a “sober sitter” (him/herself being well-versed in such matters) is advised in all such situations. Once the taker gains experience and understanding of the nuances of psychedelic thinking, s/he often employs other experienced friends to partake with him/her so that they can chill each other out if necessary. And then some people invite others to partake with them because they think it’s more fun/more enjoyable/they get more out of it with others. But most people who’ve had experience with a particular psychedelic can keep themselves in the right frame of mind without any help and frankly don’t pose any danger to anyone unless they’re already the type to pick up bad and dangerous habits–granted, this is by definition more likely to surface in the personalities of people who willingly break the law by taking drugs, but it’s really still not a substantial danger to society as a whole IMO. Short answer: Yes, true. The “risk of harm” is usually more emotional (self-harm) than physical, though. MMV and does, but IME I’d wager the vast majority of “sitter” experiences (sober or not) do _not_ involve any physical danger to persons or property. (OK, as to the latter I’m sure a number of people have knocked over bongs and stepped on laptops on their first trips, but you know what I’m sayin’.) ---
**Author:** ![TastesLikeBurning](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@TastesLikeBurning](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TastesLikeBurning)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2006, 6:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finally-an-official-recognition-of-the-effects-of-psychedelics/363978/40 "2006-07-16T06:37:42Z")
I thought this fits well with the thread… > [@](#): > > **Bill Hicks** dreaming about the day we see a positive drug story in the news - “Today, a young man on acid realised that all matter is merely energy condensed to a slow vibration and that we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively. There’s no such thing as death, life is only a dream, and you are the imagination of yourself. Here’s Tom with the weather…!” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finally-an-official-recognition-of-the-effects-of-psychedelics/363978.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finally-an-official-recognition-of-the-effects-of-psychedelics/363978.md?page=3)