# Finally got around to reading Dune **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [May 24, 2015, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finally-got-around-to-reading-dune/720688 "2015-05-24T01:24:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Mahaloth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mahaloth/32/1079_2.png) [@Mahaloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mahaloth)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2015, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finally-got-around-to-reading-dune/720688/41 "2015-05-27T16:12:12Z")
> [@Zsofia](#): > > I found Children of Dune to be pretty boring, honestly. I also preferred Dune Messiah. I expect a lot of people were disappointed in it just because it’s so different from Dune, and when you read that the only one you’ve read yet is Dune. Dune Messiah read like it was published in serial format in a magazine. It was, wasn’t it? Children of Dune does not read like that(though I don’t know if it was published in magazines). Edit: Apparently, Children of Dune was published in a magazine. It feels less like it to me. ---
**Author:** ![glowacks](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/glowacks/32/5548_2.png) [@glowacks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glowacks)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2015, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finally-got-around-to-reading-dune/720688/42 "2015-05-28T04:05:01Z")
As far as I am concerned, there is only one book. I’ve never read or heard anything good about books that may exist beyond the first other than what passes for damning with faint praise. I read it at two different times in my life, the second time understanding far more than the first, and never found myself wanting to read more in the universe. The Foundation story on the other hand… ---
**Author:** ![Critical1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/3e96dc/32.png) [@Critical1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Critical1)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2015, 6:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finally-got-around-to-reading-dune/720688/43 "2015-05-28T06:05:42Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > I have to add that Herbert’s indifference/hostility to democracy bothered me. Every government, large and small, in the Duneverse is a tyranny of one flavor or another. It reflects a grim view of humanity’s future that didn’t and doesn’t sit well with me, much as I enjoyed the first book. Check out “the Whipping Star” and Dosadi Experiment" (Dosadi might be my favorite of his books. There is more democracy going on in that universe. > [@glowacks](#): > > As far as I am concerned, there is only one book. I’ve never read or heard anything good about books that may exist beyond the first other than what passes for damning with faint praise. soooo you didn’t read this thread? ---
**Author:** ![outlierrn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/outlierrn/32/3005_2.png) [@outlierrn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/outlierrn)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2015, 7:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finally-got-around-to-reading-dune/720688/44 "2015-05-28T07:43:26Z")
If memory serves, Herbert wrote portions of messiah and children before finishing Dune, and had always foreseen it as a trilogies. ---
**Author:** ![MeanJoe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/meanjoe/32/5693_2.png) [@MeanJoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MeanJoe)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2015, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finally-got-around-to-reading-dune/720688/45 "2015-05-28T13:25:32Z")
I’ve read the entire original series of books several times. I’ve read the first four books (Dune through God Emperor) a few times more. Anymore I usually stop after God Emperor. Heretics and Chapterhouse always leave me with a bit of a headache and generally fairly confused as to what the heck is actually going on. Honestly if I was forced to provide a brief plot synopsis of either book I’d be unable to do so. Dune is still one of my favorite books of all time. I recently selected it for our book club and I was somewhat surprised at the mixed reactions it received. Many of our book club members either gave up or those that finished it gave it a mediocre review. It still did spark some good conversation with many first time readers really seemingly struggling to grasp the scope of the universe and the various themes within the story. Anything by Brian Herbert should be stacked into a pile of kindling around Brian Herbert and lit on fire. MeanJoe ---
**Author:** ![Lightray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightray/32/391_2.png) [@Lightray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightray)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2015, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finally-got-around-to-reading-dune/720688/46 "2015-05-28T14:26:05Z")
> [@Critical1](#): > > Check out “the Whipping Star” and Dosadi Experiment" (Dosadi might be my favorite of his books. > There is more democracy going on in that universe. As I recall, the Bureau of Sabotage was created because democracy was too efficient at rolling over everything and ignoring human welfare. Herbert was apparently not a fan of democracy. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2015, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finally-got-around-to-reading-dune/720688/47 "2015-05-28T15:41:09Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Technically, the Empire under House Corrino was a _constitutional_ monarchy with a parliament (the Landsraad) that could theoretically act against the Emperor’s will. The Landsraad wasn’t a _democratic_ parliament, though - the average citizen was a serf and had no say in which nobility ruled over them, and were just transferred along with other assets when a planet changed hands, as e.g. Caladan and Arrakis were in _Dune_. They were counted as part of the Great Houses’ fiefs. The system was Late Medieval feudal, with the Landsraad, CHOAM and the Guild as some weird combo of a House of Lords and Hanseatic League, vs Shaddam’s Holy Roman Emperor. I guess that makes the BG the Catholic Church, with the requirement to marry a Truthsayer basically the equivalent of the HRE needing to be crowned by the Pope… ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2015, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finally-got-around-to-reading-dune/720688/48 "2015-05-28T16:21:47Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > The system was Late Medieval feudal, with the Landsraad, CHOAM and the Guild as some weird combo of a House of Lords and Hanseatic League, vs Shaddam’s Holy Roman Emperor. I’ve heard it said that Dune was inspired by Lawrence of Arabia, which would make the Galactic Empire more of an allegory for the Ottoman Empire than for the HRE, though there are definitely corollaries to European politics as well. > [@](#): > > I guess that makes the BG the Catholic Church IIRC, it was established either in one of the sequels, or in the quasi-canonical Dune Encyclopedia, that the name ‘Bene Gesserit’ is a corruption of ‘Bona Jesuit’, which would make that connection pretty explicit. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2015, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finally-got-around-to-reading-dune/720688/49 "2015-05-28T16:28:14Z")
What, no mention of [Doon](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Lampoon%27s_Doon) yet? With Pall Agamemnides, aka Mauve’Bib aka the Kumkwat Haagendasz? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Knowed\_Out](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/knowed_out/32/7380_2.png) [@Knowed\_Out](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knowed_Out)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2015, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finally-got-around-to-reading-dune/720688/50 "2015-05-28T16:32:21Z")
I get the feeling the Dune universe is ruled (in name, if not in fact) by a galactic feudal system, like the Middle Ages. The emperor’s power isn’t absolute by any means, because landowners (in this case, planet owners) have too much influence and have at some time in the past united to balance power. CHOAM is like a surgence of the middle class that all the sudden controlled a vital resource no one could do without, transport. The nobility had no choice but to include them in their feudalism. The Emperor’s clan is considered the Royal Family, and is considered to be the actual owners of the universe, but grants portions of it and titles thereof for political purposes. Paul’s coup is similar to William of Orange becoming King of England by conquering it and marrying the queen. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2015, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finally-got-around-to-reading-dune/720688/51 "2015-05-28T17:19:21Z")
> [@MeanJoe](#): > > Anything by Brian Herbert should be stacked into a pile of kindling around Brian Herbert and lit on fire. Don’t forget to divide them up so you have a separate stack for Kevin Hackerson. They both deserve to writhe in agony at their own personal stake. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2015, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finally-got-around-to-reading-dune/720688/52 "2015-05-28T17:23:27Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > IIRC, it was established either in one of the sequels, or in the quasi-canonical Dune Encyclopedia, that the name ‘Bene Gesserit’ is a corruption of ‘Bona Jesuit’, which would make that connection pretty explicit. Definitely not in the Dune Encyclopedia, which allows that with ancestral memory, “corruption” of vocabulary doesn’t happen (or at least is corrected as memories from the original language’s culture are added to the crowd). The DE explicitly says that “Bene Gesserit” was a natural evolution, since it means “Good Bearers”, which describes the BG’s view of itself rather well. Bona Jesuit sounds like something the Boy Judas and Kevin Hackerson would have come up with, for sure. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2015, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finally-got-around-to-reading-dune/720688/53 "2015-05-28T17:32:47Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > Bona Jesuit sounds like something the Boy Judas and Kevin Hackerson would have come up with, for sure. It definitely predates that - I specifically recall seeing the phrase in writing some time before the Brian Herbert novels came into being. ---
**Author:** ![Critical1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/3e96dc/32.png) [@Critical1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Critical1)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2015, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finally-got-around-to-reading-dune/720688/54 "2015-05-28T18:20:05Z")
> [@Lightray](#): > > As I recall, the Bureau of Sabotage was created because democracy was too efficient at rolling over everything and ignoring human welfare. Herbert was apparently not a fan of democracy. Not democracy, Government itself. this is a total hi-jack but this link better describes the situation. Government was not longer acting in the best interests of the people it was supposed to serve. Democracy was still the way the universe was run. ---
**Author:** ![Cartoonacy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/848f3c/32.png) [@Cartoonacy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cartoonacy)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2015, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finally-got-around-to-reading-dune/720688/55 "2015-05-28T21:35:38Z")
> [@Mahaloth](#): > > Nah, Children of Dune is awesome. Dune Messiah is pretty bad, but necessary. > > I attempted God Emperor of Dune, but quit. This. > [@RTFirefly](#): > > What, no mention of [Doon](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Lampoon%27s_Doon) yet? With Pall Agamemnides, aka Mauve’Bib aka the Kumkwat Haagendasz? 😃 And that. Hilarious stuff. The saga of Doon, the “Dessert Planet,” so called because its surface was nothing but a vast expanse of sugar. Doon, a planet of vital strategic importance, because it is the only known source in the universe of the mind-expanding substance known as “beer,” the ingestion of which has turned the natives’ eyes a distinctive red-on-red. ---
**Author:** ![grude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47774/32.png) [@grude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grude)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2015, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finally-got-around-to-reading-dune/720688/56 "2015-05-28T22:26:06Z")
Is there any plot relevance to Arrakis not being the native home of the sandworms and being said to have been originally a lush planet? At first I wondered if it was actually a far future earth, but that was shot down in a Dune topic I made once. Oh and the ships and navigators, it is never really said whether the ships have some kind of warp or FTL drive and the navigators just mentally plot a course using spice, or if they are actually somehow mentally teleporting the ship was it? ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2015, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finally-got-around-to-reading-dune/720688/57 "2015-05-28T23:35:56Z")
> [@grude](#): > > Oh and the ships and navigators, it is never really said whether the ships have some kind of warp or FTL drive and the navigators just mentally plot a course using spice, or if they are actually somehow mentally teleporting the ship was it? Dude, they were stoned. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![outlierrn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/outlierrn/32/3005_2.png) [@outlierrn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/outlierrn)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2015, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finally-got-around-to-reading-dune/720688/58 "2015-05-28T23:58:43Z")
> [@grude](#): > > Oh and the ships and navigators, it is never really said whether the ships have some kind of warp or FTL drive and the navigators just mentally plot a course using spice, or if they are actually somehow mentally teleporting the ship was it? They had a limited prescience that allowed them to foresee the safe path. ---
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2015, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finally-got-around-to-reading-dune/720688/59 "2015-05-29T01:10:28Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > The Landsraad wasn’t a _democratic_ parliament, though - the average citizen was a serf and had no say in which nobility ruled over them, and were just transferred along with other assets when a planet changed hands, as e.g. Caladan and Arrakis were in _Dune_. They were counted as part of the Great Houses’ fiefs… IIRC Duke Leto Atreides allowed his subjects on Caladan to elect a single member of his privy council; this was considered highly eccentric bordering on insane by the other Great Houses. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2015, 7:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finally-got-around-to-reading-dune/720688/60 "2015-05-29T07:16:55Z")
> [@Knowed\_Out](#): > > CHOAM is like a surgence of the middle class that all the sudden controlled a vital resource no one could do without, transport. The nobility had no choice but to include them in their feudalism. That’s not quite accurate - CHOAM is \*made up of \*the nobility (Houses Great and Minor) and the Emperor, not non-noble citizens. The Guild and BG can be considered silent partners, but only nobles are shareholders in CHOAM. There isn’t really a commoner middle class involvement in CHOAM in my understanding, that societal niche being taken over by the Houses Minor. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finally-got-around-to-reading-dune/720688.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finally-got-around-to-reading-dune/720688.md?page=4)