# Finally we can dump Israel? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 14, 2002, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finally-we-can-dump-israel/98192 "2002-03-14T03:12:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 12\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![istara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e79b87/32.png) [@istara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/istara)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2002, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finally-we-can-dump-israel/98192/41 "2002-03-15T13:48:10Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by mswas \* > \*\*3) To Istara, please elaborate on how a more effective Israeli military equates to a more oppressive one. Had Sharon not been to the temple mount (oh the horror, what a dispicable act, going to a holy site like that) in September of 2000, and had not provided a pretext for a Palestinian uprising, would the Israelis be killing Palestinians by the dozens now? \*\* My opinion would be that a more targeted Israeli offensive would be a more effective one. If they managed to only kill obviously armed people (and not pregant women, children etc) then Arab media would not be able to slash emotive pics of slaughtered babies all over their newspapers. I realise that Israeli victims also include many civilians/non military. But the Palestinian victims outnumber the Israeli ones by 3-1. We know that the Israelis are better armed, better trained, and better organised. Their margin of error should be less, their targetings more accurate. The second part of your question is off the topic of my original comment, and I am not really qualified to answer it. However I will bounce back rhetorically: Had the Palestinians not been oppressed, victimised, displaced and increasingly desperate before the temple mount visit, would it - or any other event - have triggered such an uprising? ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2002, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finally-we-can-dump-israel/98192/42 "2002-03-15T23:14:15Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by jjimm \* > \*\*I look forward to seeing the B52s flying over Belfast. :rolleyes: \*\* Actually, Belfast is home to the only synagogue in Ireland. I had this confirmed when I met I member of the congregation last year. RE The OP-The deliberate killing of non-combatants is wrong. The firebombing of Dresden was wrong. Suicide bombers destroying discos, malls and pizzerias is wrong. Accidentally killing non-combatants while aiming at legitimate targets is another matter. Israel has a program of TARGETTED assassinations. The goal of these is to kill the target without killing or harming anyone else. The Palestinians have suicide bombers. They target civilians and civilian locations. I wouldn’t be happy about a suicide bomber destroying an Israeli military base. But, I’d understand it a lot more than the destruction of schools and Sbarro’s. ---
**Author:** ![Pedro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/919ad9/32.png) [@Pedro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pedro)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2002, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finally-we-can-dump-israel/98192/43 "2002-03-16T01:20:48Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Dewey Cheatem Undhow \* > **The only reason Palestinian women and children die in Israeli reprisals is because Palestinian terrorists choose to hide amongst women and children.** :rolleyes: Doubtful… > [@](#): > > **Palestinian suicide bombers, on the other hand, have no problem walking into crowded civilian areas with no military purpose whatsoever and blowing up innocent Israelis.** That is terrorism in action. I’m sure they would prefere to send a few apaches with air to ground missiles given the chance. You might also be interested to know Jews used these same methods before the state of Israel was created to kill many civilians in the Middle East under British Rule. > [@](#): > > \*\*When the Palestinians start sending suicide bombers into Israeli military barracks, then and only then will the two situations be analagous. \*\* :rolleyes: Hardly feasable… - Johnny ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2002, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finally-we-can-dump-israel/98192/44 "2002-03-16T01:40:04Z")
Istara: Again, there is an oversimplification with your response. While the original settling of Israel was not necessarily “kosher” it was not done completely out of hand. In many instances land was PURCHASED from the Palestinians, and they weren’t just kicked off. Also, for the most part the Israeli settlers came into areas that appeared more or less as No Man’s Lands and built settlements overnight. While their tactics may not have been noble in every case, they were not wrong in many of them. It wasn’t until the Israeli settlers started to get attacked by the Palestinians that they started to strike back and strike back hard. The current Israel that we have now, that is one of the most efficient, well armed and well trained armies in the entire world would not exist had they not been suffering atrocities for many years. Let’s not forget that Israel DOES NOT occupy all of Palestine. When you look at a map, the way Palestine was divided, Jordan, which dwarfs Israel in land area, is an Arab country, and it is part of Palestine. The Israelis tried very hard to give concessions to the Palestinians. When they gave control of Jerusalem to the Palestinians, what did they do? They closed it off and started to demolish Jewish holy sites. Now that it is under Israeli control do you see Israelis demolishing Arab holy sites? In response to the reply to my statement about the settlements and why I think they should be demolished. 1. they are on occupied land that will eventually need to be given back for any kind of peace to be established. 2. They extend within the legal borders of Israel, therefore the houses, that are perfectly good homes, would be given up to an enemy that they aren’t going to trust that much at first. 3. These homes were for the most part built illegally. It was illegal under international law, and it was illegal under Israeli law in some of the cases. If something is not done quickly, and that something means BOTH sides giving major concessions, there is going to be genocide, and it won’t be the Israelis dying first. Israel will wipe out huge portions of Palestinians if this escalates further, which will then open them up to retaliation by their Arab neighbors. I would hate to see this happen. Again, arguing against the 3-1 ratio is unfair, it is saying that just because the Israelis are more effective, they are more wrong. This just doesn’t fly. Israel does NOT target civilians in the way that the Palestinians do. Not to mention the Israelis bring ISRAELI terrorists to justice of their own accord, something, that if the PA did, none of this would be even an issue. Look at Baruch Goldstein, is he hiding out in El At planning his next foray into a mosque with an M-16? You cannot portray the Palestinians as harmless civilians because they aren’t. You cannot portray them as unarmed because they’re not. You cannot say that the gunmen do not hide behind women and children because they do. We see videos of them doing it on television all the time. We’ve seen it done in other Muslim countries like Somalia against American troops. Erek ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2002, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finally-we-can-dump-israel/98192/45 "2002-03-16T02:50:12Z")
Clearly using women and children as shields and PR tools is a standard tactic of the Palestinians. For instance, in the past when a violent demonstration was being staged the authorities would let Palestinian children out of school so that they could take part. What do you do if you’re an Israeli soldier at a checkpoint, and suddenly from inside a crowd of women and children a gunman opens fire on you? You are forced into returning fire or abandoning your post. And then women and children get hurt or killed. The Israelis could be more discriminate for my tastes, and I think it’s a bad tactic to drop bombs and missiles into civilian areas. But the Palestinians must bear a high percentage of the blame for putting their women and children in harm’s way intentionally to score political points. ---
**Author:** ![capacitor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e47774/32.png) [@capacitor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/capacitor)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2002, 7:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finally-we-can-dump-israel/98192/46 "2002-03-16T07:46:24Z")
This is going to be a sad situation. Israel cannot possibly win a war of attrition; the Palestinians have responded by among other things successfully destroying their great tanks, which have never happened during the several wars with other Arab countries. Yet Israel cannot go out and raze entire towns like Alan Dershowitz suggested in today’s Daily News, for that would totally jeopardize US’s plan to go after Iraq and other terrorists abroad. The Palestinians on the other hand are purposefully targeting areas that, albeit guaranteeing high casualties, won’t the catastrophic-sized ones such as 9/11, for they will suffer Israel’s full wrath, with Islamic ambivalence and full Western support. So they will bleed each other slowly to death. ---
**Author:** ![zwaldd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a9adbd/32.png) [@zwaldd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zwaldd)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2002, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finally-we-can-dump-israel/98192/47 "2002-03-16T15:06:37Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by JohnnyIsGood \* > **You might also be interested to know Jews used these same methods before the state of Israel was created to kill many civilians in the Middle East under British Rule.** Jews living in that area have always had to defend themselves against Arab aggression. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2002, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finally-we-can-dump-israel/98192/48 "2002-03-17T00:13:52Z")
Sam: There have been instances, albeit mostly before the intifada and at the very beginning of it, that Israeli soldiers held their fire, or used rubber bullets when being fired upon by real bullets. Erek ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2002, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finally-we-can-dump-israel/98192/49 "2002-03-17T00:19:47Z")
Yeah, I know Mswas. But you can’t avoid ALL civilian casualties when you are trying to defend yourself against someone who intentionally hides behind civilians. By the way, the Geneva Convention specifically allows intentional civilian casualties as long as the response is proportional to the military threat. In other words, if a combatant puts a missile launcher on top of a school building, it is within the Geneva Conventions to target that school building. And if soldiers open fire from within a crowd of civilians, it is acceptable to fire back into the crowd, as long as your response is proportional and aimed only at removing the threat. i.e. you can’t spray a crowd with machine gun fire in order to hit one man with a pistol, but if 20 men with machine guns open fire from within a crowd, you can return similar fire. The same applies to medical facilities. It is against the Geneva convention to target hospitals and ambulances, but if soliders start using the ambulances to transport ammo or themselves, then they become fair game. As far as I know, Israel has not been accused of stepping beyond the bounds of the Geneva conventions. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2002, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finally-we-can-dump-israel/98192/50 "2002-03-18T13:35:42Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by DocCathode \* > **Actually, Belfast is home to the only synagogue in Ireland. I had this confirmed when I met I member of the congregation last year.** [nitpick]In Northern Ireland, maybe, but there are more in the Republic - in [Dublin alone there are four](http://www.wjc.org.il/communities/community_archive/ireland.html). Anyway my rhetorical point to **k2dave** was meant to imply that not all terrorists are Islamists.[/nitpick] ---
**Author:** ![Keeve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f07891/32.png) [@Keeve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Keeve)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2002, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finally-we-can-dump-israel/98192/51 "2002-03-18T15:05:48Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by mswas \* > \*\*In response to the reply to my statement about the settlements and why I think they should be demolished. > > 1. they are on occupied land that will eventually need to be given back for any kind of peace to be established. > 2. They extend within the legal borders of Israel, therefore the houses, that are perfectly good homes, would be given up to an enemy that they aren’t going to trust that much at first. > 3. These homes were for the most part built illegally. It was illegal under international law, and it was illegal under Israeli law in some of the cases.\*\* If I understand you correctly, then the Israelis would not demolish the buildings for their own reasons (such as to spite the Palestineans, for example) but because the _Palestineans_ want them demolished? ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2002, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finally-we-can-dump-israel/98192/52 "2002-03-18T17:36:36Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Keeve \* > \*\*If I understand you correctly, then the Israelis would not demolish the buildings for their own reasons (such as to spite the Palestineans, for example) but because the _Palestineans_ want them demolished? \*\* Well my understanding is that the Palestinians do in fact want them demolished. Due to the mentality that built the settlements in the first place, so that Israel COULDN’T give back that land because it had people living on it, I wouldn’t be surprised if demolishing the homes were the only way to get the settlers off. Erek [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finally-we-can-dump-israel/98192.md?page=2)