# Financial disacuity
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/financial-disacuity/707949
**Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share
**Created:** [December 22, 2014, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/financial-disacuity/707949 "2014-12-22T20:10:44Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 23
### Author:  [@Tuxie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuxie)
#### Post date: [January 7, 2015, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/financial-disacuity/707949/441 "2015-01-07T00:28:32Z")
> [@Frylock](#):
>
> What are the good things to buy at Costco or Sams? A few years ago I did some comparison shopping and it didn’t seem like there were any actual savings involved–but it could be I was looking at the wrong stuff?
Alcohol for starters.
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### Author:  [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)
#### Post date: [January 7, 2015, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/financial-disacuity/707949/442 "2015-01-07T00:52:39Z")
> [@Shodan](#):
>
> This statement makes zero sense. “I am living from paycheck to paycheck, therefore it doesn’t make sense to be smart about how I spend my money”.
What I’m trying to say, and perhaps I’m saying it poorly, is that there are those who aren’t living from paycheck to paycheck because their paychecks don’t cover basic needs. They simply cannot stretch their paycheck far enough, even if every decision they make is good. The 24 hours they get in a week at WalMart just isn’t sufficient. Or only sufficient, the week they only get 18 hours, they are sunk. And woe if they have a serious issue - loose a week of work to illness, have someone who normally watches their kids for free say they can’t any longer…
Even if you eat rice and beans and live in a studio apartment in a lousy neighborhood - food, rent, laundry, buying new underwear every five years, and a bus pass are going to cost you something.
Those people are in a place where they don’t make financial decisions other than day to day survival. There aren’t good decisions, there aren’t bad decisions. There is simply “what do I need to do today to keep a roof over my head and enough food in me.”
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### Author:  [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)
#### Post date: [January 7, 2015, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/financial-disacuity/707949/443 "2015-01-07T02:03:50Z")
> [@Eva\_Luna](#):
>
> And sometimes even educated middle-class people make financial decisions that just make no damn logical sense.
This is a point that should be more obvious, but unfortunately it’s easy to forget in a thread harping about stupid poor people.
I’ve heard of people who will drive 10 or more miles out of the way just to get gas a little bit cheaper than the stuff down the street. The losing arithmetic doesn’t stop them from doing this.
Buying in bulk at Cosco makes sense, but if you don’t have a bunch of space to store bulk items, don’t have the means to haul bulk items home, and prefer certain brands and products that aren’t typically sold at Cosco, then signing up to be a member may not seem like a have-to-do thing.
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### Author:  [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)
#### Post date: [January 7, 2015, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/financial-disacuity/707949/444 "2015-01-07T02:09:23Z")
> [@Crafter\_Man](#):
>
> [anecdotal alert]I am very skeptical “good access” to healthy food would make any difference. At the Walmart where I shop, I would estimate _most_ of the shoppers are obese. Their carts are _filled_ with desserts and fatty/frozen junk food. I look at their carts and say to myself, “How can they _eat_ that crap?” This same Walmart has a very nice selection of fresh fruits and vegetables. When I’m in this section, there’s usually no other shoppers there.
Anedote alert:
Working at a big box store, I find that I can make no prediction based on either what’s in the cart or how hefty the customer is whether they’ll pay with food stamps or not.
Again - these food issues cut across all socio-economic lines. Why are the poor held to a higher standard than wealthier people?
> [@](#):
>
> I have friends and relatives who have lost their teeth at a relatively young age. Each whines about not having dental insurance, and they rarely went to the dentist. (FTR, I have never had dental insurance either.) I always found it interesting, though, that they could afford cigarettes, alcohol, fancy cell phones, game consoles, big-screen TVs, and vacations, but “couldn’t afford” to go to the dentist every six months.
Said co-worker doesn’t drink, doesn’t smoke, doesn’t own a mobile phone. I am not aware of the status of the family’s TV or “gaming consoles”. Again, nice job stereotyping. Also, the coworker is mid-40’s, which is not outrageously young for that sort of problem and in fact about what you’d expect from a lifetime of spotting dental care.
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### Author:  [@Eva\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eva_Luna)
#### Post date: [January 7, 2015, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/financial-disacuity/707949/445 "2015-01-07T02:12:42Z")
> [@Tuxie](#):
>
> Alcohol for starters.
there are tons of threads on this very subject. For our 2-person household, OTC drugs alone make the membership worth it, and take up almost no space. It was worth it even when I was a one-person household. Our typical grocery purchases:
Milk
Orange juice
Plain yogurt, cheaper than I could make it fromscratch, and we go through a LOT of yogurt
Dried fruits and nuts
Oatmeal
Canned tomatoes
Onions
Mushrooms
Apples
Cheese
Coffee beans
Toilet paper
Cat litter
Vitamins/supplements
prescription drugs are consistently the cheapest I’ve found in the U.S.
Meat is roughly comparable to other places where we buy it, but quality is often better for the price if they have the cuts we want - a two-person household would likely need to freeze at least part of each package
Flour, cooking oil, baking staples
Rice
Cleaning supplies and laundry detergent
Prepared foods are cheap and relatively high quality, too, but we mostly cook from scratch.
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### Author:  [@Eva\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eva_Luna)
#### Post date: [January 7, 2015, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/financial-disacuity/707949/446 "2015-01-07T02:19:46Z")
ETA: I should note that we live in a condo, not a house, and don’t have a ton of spare storage space. No garage, tiny basement storage locker. The perishable goods mentioned above are in quantities that a 2-person household can easily use up before they go bad. And even the huge case of toilet paper fits under our bathroom vanities. Coffee is. 2 lb. bags, onions are 10 lb. bags, so are flour and sugar (I bake most of our bread, etc.), yogurt is 2 qts. (We go through about 3 qts. A week and add our own fruit, nuts, etc.)
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### Author:  [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)
#### Post date: [January 7, 2015, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/financial-disacuity/707949/447 "2015-01-07T02:21:28Z")
> [@Shodan](#):
>
> So what? A rich person has resources to recover from a stupid decision. A poor one doesn’t. Therefore, it is more important for a poor person not to make stupid decisions because the consequences are going to be more severe.
And… once again the poor are held to a higher standard. Because, I guess, they’re not under enough stress or something.
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#):
>
> Buying in bulk at Cosco makes sense, but if you don’t have a bunch of space to store bulk items, don’t have the means to haul bulk items home, and prefer certain brands and products that aren’t typically sold at Cosco, then signing up to be a member may not seem like a have-to-do thing.
Or they have alternative means of saving on purchases - I get an employee discount where I work and usually know about sales in advance. On top of which, no additional transportation costs since I’m there already.
There’s more than one way to save money and deal with poverty. The fact still remains, though, that you need a certain minimal amount of resources to get by at all.
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### Author:  [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)
#### Post date: [January 7, 2015, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/financial-disacuity/707949/448 "2015-01-07T02:30:03Z")
I can see myself going to Costco and depriving myself of any savings because the store offers so much more than a regular grocery store. Kind of like how when I run into Walmart to pick up a couple of items and then leave with half the store.
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### Author:  [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)
#### Post date: [January 7, 2015, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/financial-disacuity/707949/449 "2015-01-07T02:39:10Z")
> [@Broomstick](#):
>
> And… once again the poor are held to a higher standard. Because, I guess, they’re not under enough stress or something.
That’s because the basic message is, “they need to do it all on their own, because I don’t want to lift a finger or spend a dime on them.” That’s why.
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### Author:  [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)
#### Post date: [January 7, 2015, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/financial-disacuity/707949/450 "2015-01-07T02:42:50Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#):
>
> This is a point that should be more obvious, but unfortunately it’s easy to forget in a thread harping about stupid poor people.
I suspect that the purpose of the OP was not to harp about poor people, but to talk about exactly this - how nuts it drives him/her/you/me when people who do have the means make stupid decision after stupid decision.
A friend of mine had a grandmother with a family farm. The land was worth quite a bit of money and when grandma died, her uncle needed to get that farm sold as fast as possible. See, he had problems funding the life he wanted with his six figure a year job - and had gotten himself into a hole.
A relative managed to dodge bankruptcy due to a timely family loan, and then - still owing the family member money - went to Cabo for a week. “Its been so stressful, I deserve it.”
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### Author:  [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)
#### Post date: [January 7, 2015, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/financial-disacuity/707949/451 "2015-01-07T03:02:28Z")
> [@monstro](#):
>
> I can see myself going to Costco and depriving myself of any savings because the store offers so much more than a regular grocery store. Kind of like how when I run into Walmart to pick up a couple of items and then leave with half the store.
yeah, the Costco macadamia nut clusters are not very expensive for what they are - but they sure aren’t money anyone NEEDS to spend - yet somehow, they end up in my cart.
My last Costco trip was $361. Now, I did buy $160 worth of tax software for myself and my business. And a huge box of foodservice quality and quantity aluminum foil for $22.
But I also got organic grass fed hippy hamburger for $4.99 a pound (non organic was 3.40 - but you buy ten pounds of it at a time and have to wrap it yourself - not practical for someone living alone without a freezer or someone short on time). Pears at .99 a pound (of course, enough pears for a small army), a flat of San Pellegrino (nothing that someone looking to save money will buy) for $15. 36 cans of Coke for $9.50 (sometimes I get it cheaper on sale at the grocery store, but its a consistent $9.50 a flat at Costco).
If you have a dog, their grain free dog food is about half the price of anyone else’s grain free dog food.
But its $55 to join, they are often out of the way, the quantities are usually large and they do sell a lot of things you don’t need. It MIGHT be a good way for someone who was middle class to save some money - but it isn’t a given that you would - and without storage and enough money to invest in ten pounds of spaghetti at a time - it isn’t doing a lot of people any favors.
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### Author:  [@Waymore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Waymore)
#### Post date: [January 7, 2015, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/financial-disacuity/707949/452 "2015-01-07T03:07:56Z")
> [@Broomstick](#):
>
> Nope.
>
> I have a much more nuanced approach. Large family from Latin America? Probably has a homemaker (if she hasn’t been forced out of the role by bureaucratic rules). 8 guys sharing a room while they try to find work in lawncare or construction? Not so much.
Nuance is tantamount to circumlocution in this instance. In my experience, immigrant families have more dedicated homemakers than native born American families. But it’s far from universal, or even common. A lot of it depends on the culture from which they came.
But that’s really besides the point. You’re essentially saying that without a dedicated homemaker poor people can’t help but to eat shitty food. That’s not true. However, there’s absolutely nothing I can do to disabuse you of your view, so I won’t beat this dead horse.
> [@Broomstick](#):
>
> Of course, looking at these issues as multi-factorial makes it much harder to go “oh, those stupid fat poor people!”.
Except nobody’s saying what you suggest. If anything, you’re taking the opposite tact. All poor people everywhere for all time are heroically struggling against grim, impersonal forces they’re helpless against and their personal choices and the cultures from which they come have nothing to do with their circumstances.
Who’s not being nuanced here?
> [@Broomstick](#):
>
> That would be _grand_ if there were never any costs _other_ than food. That’s not the case. There’s rent, clothing, gas, utilities, deodorant, toilet paper, getting the car fixed… Losing food benefits is the equivalent of getting a pay cut of several hundred dollars a month - something even the middle class would notice.
>
> Virtually all financial gurus suggest keeping 3-6 months living expenses in the bank as a cushion against normal stuff that happens. $2k is about _six weeks at most_ for my household. Thus, the current system discourages the poorest from taking such a basic precaution as saving up a couple month’s expenses. I suggest that this is counter-productive. We’re not encouraging good financial habits in the poorest, in fact we’re _dis_couraging them, then acting _shocked_ when they don’t engage in those habits anyway.
If you have saved $2,000, odds are you didn’t do it by not meeting the necessities of life. Most solidly middle class families don’t have $2,000 in the bank.
Look, if you’d rather stay in a system you yourself have called dysfunctional instead of building a nest egg, be my guest. I know which direction I’d go.
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### Author:  [@Waymore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Waymore)
#### Post date: [January 7, 2015, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/financial-disacuity/707949/453 "2015-01-07T03:11:37Z")
> [@Broomstick](#):
>
> Selling tortillas and a couple different types of peppers now make a store an ethnic wonderland? Holy crap, my local Aldi’s is a Mexican grocer now! Oh, wait - they sell edamame, too, in the frozen aisle, I guess they’re really a Japanese grocery.
>
> Actually, Aldi’s does a pretty good job of keeping parts of my area from turning into a food desert. You don’t get 10,000 selections, but they have the basics plus a few other items and what they have is decent quality. If they weren’t there, however, there would be significant stretches where no, there are NO grocery stores and for anyone without access to a car getting to the ones further out would be a pain in the ass.
You asked for evidence that they were in fact groceries selling healthy food and not the Indian version of Burger King. I provided it. Let’s not move goalposts.
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### Author:  [@Waymore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Waymore)
#### Post date: [January 7, 2015, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/financial-disacuity/707949/454 "2015-01-07T03:19:44Z")
> [@even\_sven](#):
>
> Seriously? When is the last time you walked four miles to accomplish a routine task?
>
> This is a dense urban area where most people- rich or poor- do not own cars. There was a bus route that went by Whole Foods, but not a good one to the regular supermarket.
>
> I now live in a nicer part of the city and I’m half a mile from four different grocery stores (and a fifth that just closed). That’s not a substantial burden. I can grab the kid and do a half mile hop, even in the snow or in extreme heat. Carrying heavy groceries half a mile isn’t bad.
>
> But two miles is bad. Two miles is too far to walk for eggs, especially with kids.
>
> When I lived there I did most of my shopping as dry or frozen foods from the CVS drug store, with occasional fresh foods from the $5.00 tomato bodega (not at all kidding. As a concrete example, those little $1.00 boxes of Barilla pasta were $4.00. A banana or orange was $2.50). Eventually a joined a CSA and started getting a produce box, but that’s pricey.
I work in a warehouse, 12 hours shifts. I routinely walk more than 4 miles a shift. A 4 mile roundtrip to get food wouldn’t stop me, nor should it stop any able-bodied person.
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### Author:  [@Eva\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eva_Luna)
#### Post date: [January 7, 2015, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/financial-disacuity/707949/455 "2015-01-07T03:20:15Z")
[QUOTE=Dangerosa;]
But its $55 to join, they are often out of the way, the quantities are usually large and they do sell a lot of things you don’t need. It MIGHT be a good way for someone who was middle class to save some money - but it isn’t a given that you would - and without storage and enough money to invest in ten pounds of spaghetti at a time - it isn’t doing a lot of people any favors.
[/QUOTE]
true, one does need to be able to avoid the temptation of macadamia clusters. And one does need to have $55 free for the membership (or $110 for an executive membership, which means ours ends up being free or nearly so with the 2% rebate). The one where we shop just added a gas station, which isn’t a huge draw for people like us who commute by public transit and fill the tank maybe once a month, but could be huge for households that spend hundreds a month on gas. For us, it’s a good chunk of change in savings, though, probably because we aren’t huge consumers of processed foods or gadgets. And there are definitely things we buy elsewhere (most produce, meat, and fish) because what they carry is in too-large quantities or simply isn’t what we use.
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### Author:  [@Seanette](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Seanette)
#### Post date: [January 7, 2015, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/financial-disacuity/707949/456 "2015-01-07T03:25:53Z")
> [@monstro](#):
>
> I can see myself going to Costco and depriving myself of any savings because the store offers so much more than a regular grocery store. Kind of like how when I run into Walmart to pick up a couple of items and then leave with half the store.
Been there done that :).
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### Author:  [@Waymore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Waymore)
#### Post date: [January 7, 2015, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/financial-disacuity/707949/457 "2015-01-07T03:32:33Z")
> [@grude](#):
>
> Have you ever tried to carry a substantial load of groceries two miles on foot?
>
> I don’t own a car because taxi/maxis/buses are cheap and omnipresent(I’m not in the US), but groceries are a big deal and a burden. Not only the weight of carrying them but you can only buy what you can put in your lap or between your legs or pay for an extra seat and set them there.
Yes. I walked to and from the grocery store with my mother all through my youth. I’m the son of a roofer. In middle and high school, on summer break, I’d tear off shingle roofs. If we couldn’t get the dumpster near the building, I’d load the shingles in a wheelbarrow, walk up a ramp and dump them.
I’m not a particularly tough person. It’s just that I made it to adulthood before I was introduced to the idea that walking with a load was excessive. It’s foreign to me.
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### Author:  [@Waymore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Waymore)
#### Post date: [January 7, 2015, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/financial-disacuity/707949/458 "2015-01-07T03:40:54Z")
> [@Broomstick](#):
>
> Upthread I mentioned people who used to sell fruit at Chicago El stations. Hey, free enterprise! The sellers found a demand and were filling it. The buyers were eating healthy. Win-win! Nope - the city came and arrested the sellers, they weren’t legal businesses.
>
> Again, most of these situations are multi-factorial. There are laws regarding selling food, passed with the best intentions, but which make an obstacle to market entry.
Did you read the article by McWhorter I posted? How about the study that said poor neighborhoods had as many grocery stores as other neighborhoods?
> [@Broomstick](#):
>
> As another example: in my state you can NOT purchase alcohol on Sunday in a grocery or liquor store. There is certainly a demand for it - on Sundays the checklanes at the store where I work pile up with booze people try to buy but can’t - and since the alcohol is already stocked certainly people who are there to sell it. But it won’t move on Sunday. Because of the law.
I’m from Indiana too. Your example doesn’t do anything to undercut supply and demand. It points out the way governments interfere in markets.
> [@Broomstick](#):
>
> There is also a problem of crime in some areas. At one time, Detroit had NO grocery stores within the city limits. None. One 7/11 on the edge of the city, but that was it. Why? Because they kept getting held up. A business can’t survive if they’re getting robbed all the time. Ever notice how those “currency exchanges” and payday loan places in bad neighborhoods have things like bars on the windows and bulletproof glass between the cashiers and the public? That’s not because someone it trying to make a fashion statement.
If crime doesn’t stop people from selling fast food and alcohol, it won’t stop them from selling wholesome food.
> [@Broomstick](#):
>
> Which brings us back to your cite: great, Indianapolis has made some progress. Wonderful. That’s just _one city_. I would have been much more impressed if that article had discussed other cities and what they’ve done to remove barriers to access. (Detroit worked out a program so that food stamps could be used at their Eastern Market, for example, which is like a farmer’s market with vendor stalls).
I’ve posted other articles about other cities.
> [@Broomstick](#):
>
> The fact that someplace like Indianapolis is applauding increasing such stores is great - but it also indicates that even if there isn’t an access barrier right now there was one in the past.
But there wasn’t a barrier to access before. There was no demand. There is now.
> [@Broomstick](#):
>
> So, great - make sure everyone has _access_ to healthy food (because if they can’t get it they certainly won’t be able to choose it). That is the _first step_ to dealing with this problem, not the last. After that you have all the _other_ factors affecting food choices, from cultural habits to work schedules to bad teeth. I have a co-worker who is currently existing on Boost and Ensure due to having all teeth extracted and waiting for dentures. Lacking dental insurance for all of one’s adult life might contribute to tooth loss, who knew? Prior to the dental extractions - having to be paid off over time with interest because this person wasn’t able to save up enough to pay for it all up front - this person wasn’t eating a lot of healthy, crunchy stuff because if biting into Wonder bread can result in a lost tooth you won’t be eating a lot of raw carrots and apples.
>
> So - having the fruits and vegetables available, transportation, health issues, long standing habits… it’s not a one-dimensional problem.
How would you explain the fact that studies have found that increasing access to healthy food for poor people doesn’t decrease obesity?
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### Author:  [@Waymore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Waymore)
#### Post date: [January 7, 2015, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/financial-disacuity/707949/459 "2015-01-07T03:52:09Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#):
>
> Not necessarily. In business never underestimate the principal of making the money as quickly and easily as possible. Grocery stores are not high profit businesses.
I think I can sum up the argument vis-à-vis food deserts and demand as follows.
Business goes on in poor neighborhoods. Part of the food desert concept is that poor people have to pass 5 fast food restaurants to get to a grocery store. Advocates for the poor also decry check cashing stores, paycheck advance services, liquor stores, rent-to-own business, et al, for taking advantage of the poor.
So, nobody denies that businesses are willing to meet the demands of poor people, at least in some instances.
Therefore, the question that needs to be answered is why is the demand for healthy food any different from the demand from the products listed above?
Any reason you could give for not selling fruits and vegetables in poor neighborhoods would also apply to Popeye’s Chicken or the liquor/check cashing store.
The only sensible conclusion is that _if_ there were demand for healthy food, it would be met.
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### Author:  [@Waymore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Waymore)
#### Post date: [January 7, 2015, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/financial-disacuity/707949/460 "2015-01-07T03:57:01Z")
> [@Broomstick](#):
>
> And… once again the poor are held to a higher standard. Because, I guess, they’re not under enough stress or something.
Poor people and people who are better off are being held to the same standard. The standard is not to make dumb decisions, especially if such a decision would strain or outstrip your resources.
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