# Financial Responsibility and Reproduction **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 10, 2009, 9:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/financial-responsibility-and-reproduction/492624 "2009-04-10T09:27:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2009, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/financial-responsibility-and-reproduction/492624/41 "2009-04-10T19:58:30Z")
> [@Dangerosa](#): > > If you can’t follow my point, I’m afraid I didn’t follow your point. I’m not sure how to make it any clearer. For most middle class types, it’s basically imossible to forumulate and execute a plan to pay the tuition, room, and board for their children for an expensive private college. Let’s take you for example: By assumption, you (and your family) take home about $4500 per month, of which you spend about $3500 on a mortgage and property taxes. After putting aside $1000 per month for college, there’s nothing left for food, clothing, insurance, utilities, auto, gas, etc. And you still aren’t saving enough for tuition, room and board for 2 children for 4 years at a private college. > [@](#): > > My response was 'yeah, middle class people can’t afford Porches either - doesn’t mean they can’t drive a Civic." Sure, and they can’t afford a yacht. SO what? ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2009, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/financial-responsibility-and-reproduction/492624/42 "2009-04-10T20:04:12Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > That’s not necessary. Since, according to you, your income is irrelevant, we will assume for the sake of argument that your family pretax income is $75,000.00 and that you have a hefty mortgage payment, along with big property taxes. Well, then you made the decision that living somewhere with a big mortgage payment and taxes was more important than saving for college. There, you’ve made your choice. What’s the question? Planning for incredible luxuries may indeed be quite difficult. And many folk consider pricey private colleges to be luxuries. Our family income exceeds $100k, and we told our kids we will give them x amount towards college - based on the costs of our in-state state schools. If they chose to go to a private college (absent unusual circumstances which did not occur) they would be responsible for making up the difference. And if they think a private college degree will be worth starting off their career in debt, that’s their choice. Personally, I think my kids (U of I and Ill. St.) made the right choices. Oh yeah - we drive 6 and 8 year old Toyotas and rarely eat out. It’s all about what you consider important. ---
**Author:** ![Hakuna\_Matata](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a88e4f/32.png) [@Hakuna\_Matata](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hakuna_Matata)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2009, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/financial-responsibility-and-reproduction/492624/43 "2009-04-10T20:06:34Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > I’m not sure how to make it any clearer. For most middle class types, it’s basically imossible to forumulate and execute a plan to pay the tuition, room, and board for their children for an expensive private college. > > Let’s take you for example: By assumption, you (and your family) take home about $4500 per month, of which you spend about $3500 on a mortgage and property taxes. After putting aside $1000 per month for college, there’s nothing left for food, clothing, insurance, utilities, auto, gas, etc. > > And you still aren’t saving enough for tuition, room and board for 2 children for 4 years at a private college. > > Sure, and they can’t afford a yacht. SO what? what bizarroworld do you live in? You make $4500 a month and you are paying $3500 on a mortgage and property taxes? I live in Seattle (a fairly expensive city) and I know of no one who pays that much a month. My mortgage including taxes is $1200 a month. So your hypothetical couple can’t save money making 75K paying a $1200 mortgage? For real? And \*\*Dangerosa’s \*\*‘point’ is that a private college is equal to a Yacht or a Porsche. Every family has to make realistic choices relative to their income. My wife and have made our choices so that we can live off only one income. But we both work–so we are able to maximize our retirement plans AND fund our childs education. And we live well–we enjoy life, eat well, eat out a fair amount of the time, etc. It is about choices. I don’t have a 66 inch flat screen though–that wasn’t a choice I made. Money is just a tool and how you spend it is the critical issue. ---
**Author:** ![JR\_Brown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d6d6ee/32.png) [@JR\_Brown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JR_Brown)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2009, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/financial-responsibility-and-reproduction/492624/44 "2009-04-10T20:09:17Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > If the plan is to send the kids to State U, then I agree it’s totally doable for typical middle class people. When I talk about saving for college, I envision having enough money to send the kids to places like Yale if they get in. I suppose I should have made that clearer. If you are smart enough to get into a good school, the school will see to it that you can afford it. I went to MIT when my family was earning around $30K/year. My tuition and housing was paid entirely though grants and a total of $21K in loans in my name; my parents took no loans and paid only for my living expenses (food, clothes, books). MIT has a [stated commitment](http://www.boston.com/news/education/higher/articles/2008/03/08/mit_announces_need_based_financial_aid_plan/) to finding sufficient financial aid for any accepted student, and most of the top-tier schools have a similar policy. Now if you have a family income of $150K/year, you’re not going to get the same deal (and I don’t think you should); as someone upthread said, saving for expenses ahead of time and getting interest on your money is a sounder choice than taking out a loan and paying interest on it. (Although the interest rate on Federal education loans is so insanely low that it is possible that loans may be a better choice if you end up only owing to the Feds.) ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2009, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/financial-responsibility-and-reproduction/492624/45 "2009-04-10T20:09:19Z")
> [@Dinsdale](#): > > Well, then you made the decision that living somewhere with a big mortgage payment and taxes was more important than saving for college. There, you’ve made your choice. Well, by assumption, **Dangerosa** needs to live near a big city otherwise her salary would be significantly less. And taxes are a big hit anywhere in the US. But I do agree that a lot of middle class people could save the money for a private college for a couple children if they forewent a house and retirement savings. > [@](#): > > Planning for incredible luxuries may indeed be quite difficult. And many folk consider pricey private colleges to be luxuries. Agreed. So what? ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2009, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/financial-responsibility-and-reproduction/492624/46 "2009-04-10T20:12:51Z")
> [@Hakuna\_Matata](#): > > what bizarroworld do you live in? Actually it’s **dangerosa** we are talking about. > [@](#): > > So your hypothetical couple can’t save money making 75K paying a $1200 mortgage? No, they are paying $3500 for principle, interest, and taxes. > [@](#): > > And \*\*Dangerosa’s \*\*‘point’ is that a private college is equal to a Yacht or a Porsche. Let’s assume that’s true. So what? ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2009, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/financial-responsibility-and-reproduction/492624/47 "2009-04-10T20:13:50Z")
I’ll bow out here, as I fear I am not able to effectively communicate/debate with you on at least this matter. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2009, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/financial-responsibility-and-reproduction/492624/48 "2009-04-10T20:16:44Z")
> [@JR\_Brown](#): > > If you are smart enough to get into a good school, the school will see to it that you can afford it. I’m skeptical of this, but assuming it’s true, it’s all the more reason not to worry about saving for college. ETA: Except for Harvard, as I understand things. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2009, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/financial-responsibility-and-reproduction/492624/49 "2009-04-10T20:19:55Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > Actually it’s **dangerosa** we are talking about. No, its a hypothetical **brazil84’s completely wrong assumptions about Dangerosa** we are talking about. The person you are talking about has little relation to me. ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2009, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/financial-responsibility-and-reproduction/492624/50 "2009-04-10T20:25:02Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > I’m skeptical of this, but assuming it’s true, it’s all the more reason not to worry about saving for college. My comment was a joking way of pointing out that adoption expenses are the least of it when you have children, which was agreeing with a point **Dangerosa** had made. Her point was that if you are in your late 30s and can’t afford to pay for adoption, you may not be prepared for how expensive it is to raise children (with or without giving them a college education). But that aside, if it’s so difficult for people to fund their children’s college educations, how is it possible that SO many kids go to college these days? I personally don’t think that it’s some kind of parental requirement to provide a college education, but many, many people manage to help their kids out with that. In regards to your OP, I think that it makes sense to try to achieve a certain amount of financial stablity before having kids. I mean, waiting is a risk, but it’s a relatively small one, and most people would rather take that risk than having to struggle day-to-day for years. ---
**Author:** ![Hakuna\_Matata](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a88e4f/32.png) [@Hakuna\_Matata](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hakuna_Matata)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2009, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/financial-responsibility-and-reproduction/492624/51 "2009-04-10T20:29:28Z")
Your Original point was that you couldn’t plan for college. After everyone pointed out that was false, you changed your position that you were talking about Yale, etc. I am going to give you the benefit that you didn’t move the goalposts. Her point and pretty much everyone else as far as I can tell has stated that ‘they’ are talking about saving for college. The average young couple can plan for their children’s college–that is not in dispute as you have presented nothing that contradicts that statement. Most of this seems to be that you are equating a luxury such as a education at Yale with your original statement that young couples can’t plan for their childrens future. Going to a school such as Yale or Harvard is not in the cards for most middle class couples unless certain financial choices are made, and even less likely if they don’t save at all. But there is no reason for any couple to plan for their child to go to Yale or Harvard, there are tons of great state universities. And it is not **Dangerosa’s** world we are talking about–those numbers were all made up by you. A couple making $75K a year can easily save enough money to send a child to a state university–that is not in dispute. And for the record going to Yale or Harvard isn’t necessarily a better education then a state university. A more expensive one for sure, and one that will open certain doors as well, but I would put up my Masters degree in Architecture from a state school against any of my coworkers that went to Harvard or Yale. So it is luxury choice to plan on sending a child to a private university. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2009, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/financial-responsibility-and-reproduction/492624/52 "2009-04-10T20:41:39Z")
> [@Hakuna\_Matata](#): > > Your Original point was that you couldn’t plan for college. After everyone pointed out that was false, you changed your position that you were talking about Yale, etc. Here’s what I said: > [@](#): > > When I talk about saving for college, I envision having enough money to send the kids to places like Yale if they get in. I suppose I should have made that clearer. > [@](#): > > I am going to give you the benefit that you didn’t move the goalposts. Thank you. > [@](#): > > Most of this seems to be that you are equating a luxury such as a education at Yale with your original statement that young couples can’t plan for their childrens future. That wasn’t my statement. I’m happy to stipulate for the sake of argument that Yale is a luxury. > [@](#): > > And it is not **Dangerosa’s** world we are talking about–those numbers were all made up by you. She seemed to have claimed that the amount of her income was irrelevant. Are you disputing her apparent claim? > [@](#): > > And for the record going to Yale or Harvard isn’t necessarily a better education then a state university. I agree. ---
**Author:** ![JR\_Brown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d6d6ee/32.png) [@JR\_Brown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JR_Brown)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2009, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/financial-responsibility-and-reproduction/492624/53 "2009-04-10T20:49:29Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > I’m skeptical of this, but assuming it’s true, it’s all the more reason not to worry about saving for college. Let’s say you expect to need $48K in loans or savings to cover college expenses that you can’t (or don’t want to) pay as you go. If you can invest in a college saving plan at 3% interest and put in $344 per month for 10 years, you’ll pay in a total of $41.4K, whereas if you take out a loan for $48K at 8.5% and want to pay it off in 10 years at $596 per month, you’ll pay out an extra $23K in interest (quoting typical rates I found on the web in a quick-and-dirty search, ignoring tax rates because it should come out tax deductible in both cases). Which is the better long-term choice? ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2009, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/financial-responsibility-and-reproduction/492624/54 "2009-04-10T20:53:04Z")
> [@Sarahfeena](#): > > Her point was that if you are in your late 30s and can’t afford to pay for adoption, you may not be prepared for how expensive it is to raise children (with or without giving them a college education). Or fertility payments. Either one is not that expensive, assuming that you delayed kids from your early/mid twenties to your mid/late 30s (15 years!) so that you could have two incomes for a number of years, become financially stable, and delay daycare expenses or the reduction of income in becoming a single income family. ---
**Author:** ![Hakuna\_Matata](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a88e4f/32.png) [@Hakuna\_Matata](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hakuna_Matata)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2009, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/financial-responsibility-and-reproduction/492624/55 "2009-04-10T21:04:15Z")
well actually this is what you originally said: _In my opinion, college is just the sort of thing that young, educated, prospective parents shouldn’t worry about too much. Unless you have a trust fund, it’s almost impossible to plan for that sort of a thing, 20 years in advance._ And **Dangerosa** responded that she didn’t have a trust fund and she was planning on college for her children. Then her next posts discuss state colleges and then is when you came in and clarified that you were talking about Yale. She (and others) pointed out that people had to make financial choices but that they could afford college. College–not private luxury schools. I don’t believe anyone has claimed that you can go to Yale with middle class income–although I do think it is possible. I believe her point was that her income is not relative to the discussion of if you could save for college–and I would agree with that, if you want to save for college you will find a way, by your financial choices. Your example was not realistic in my opinion and thus is dismissed out of hand. So if you agree that going to Yale is a luxury–what is your point in the original statement above? Yes I think you will find that most people would agree that sending your kid to a private university is outside the realm of most middle class parents. But NOT saving at all is not going to make that any more of a reality. But if your OP is about financial responsibility—isn’t choosing a school based on your income abilities being financially responsible? ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2009, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/financial-responsibility-and-reproduction/492624/56 "2009-04-10T21:06:34Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > She seemed to have claimed that the amount of her income was irrelevant. Are you disputing her apparent claim? > . Ah, you are missing this part: > [@](#): > > what is relevant is that we plan for it and live below our means to afford it. The delta between what we make and what we spend is what is relevant to being able to save. Not how much we make. Although, granted, making more makes it easy to have a large delta. If you make $7 an hour and have a child, if you live with your parents and they pick up all your expenses, you can afford to save around $10k a year for college for your kid. If you make $300k a year, and go buy that Porsche and live in a McMansion, you can’t. ---
**Author:** ![Hakuna\_Matata](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a88e4f/32.png) [@Hakuna\_Matata](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hakuna_Matata)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2009, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/financial-responsibility-and-reproduction/492624/57 "2009-04-10T21:10:25Z")
> [@Dangerosa](#): > > Ah, you are missing this part: > > The delta between what we make and what we spend is what is relevant to being able to save. Not how much we make. Although, granted, making more makes it easy to have a large delta. > > If you make $7 an hour and have a child, if you live with your parents and they pick up all your expenses, you can afford to save around $10k a year for college for your kid. If you make $300k a year, and go buy that Porsche and live in a McMansion, you can’t. I do think that is the disconnect here. How much you make is not relative past a certain point. I know people who make what I do and live paycheck to paycheck based on their choices. My wife and I have made different choices and invested well, etc. and have a relatively comfortable life. But more importantly we did this at an earlier age–the older you are when you start doing that the more difficult it is because you have to put more and more away to make up the lost compounding. So I am really struggling with the concept that you can’t plan 20 years in advance. Not doing anything doesn’t seem like an appropriate solution to me. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2009, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/financial-responsibility-and-reproduction/492624/58 "2009-04-10T21:19:17Z")
> [@JR\_Brown](#): > > Let’s say you expect to need $48K in loans or savings to cover college expenses that you can’t (or don’t want to) pay as you go. > > If you can invest in a college saving plan at 3% interest and put in $344 per month for 10 years, you’ll pay in a total of $41.4K, whereas if you take out a loan for $48K at 8.5% and want to pay it off in 10 years at $596 per month, you’ll pay out an extra $23K in interest (quoting typical rates I found on the web in a quick-and-dirty search, ignoring tax rates because it should come out tax deductible in both cases). Which is the better long-term choice? I think we are getting a bit off-topic here, but if I had a choice between paying $344 a month for the next 10 years (college savings) and paying $596 per month for 10 years starting in 10 years (borrowing for college), it would be a close call. In terms of present values, the two deals are a lot less than $23,000 apart. Borrowing the money later helps with cash flow now and makes you a better candidate for financial aid. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2009, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/financial-responsibility-and-reproduction/492624/59 "2009-04-10T21:20:25Z")
> [@Dangerosa](#): > > Ah, you are missing this part: > > The delta between what we make and what we spend is what is relevant to being able to save. Not how much we make. Although, granted, making more makes it easy to have a large delta. Ok, and how much is your delta? ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2009, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/financial-responsibility-and-reproduction/492624/60 "2009-04-10T21:40:47Z")
> [@Hakuna\_Matata](#): > > So if you agree that going to Yale is a luxury–what is your point in the original statement above? That you shouldn’t worry so much about how you will pay for college 20 years down the road. > [@](#): > > But if your OP is about financial responsibility Sure and my point was that you shouldn’t go overboard. > [@](#): > > isn’t choosing a school based on your income abilities being financially responsible? Sure . . . . so what? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/financial-responsibility-and-reproduction/492624.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/financial-responsibility-and-reproduction/492624.md?page=4)