# Finding a "hidden" wifi network **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [April 27, 2014, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finding-a-hidden-wifi-network/687117 "2014-04-27T14:16:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![SpyOne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/82dd89/32.png) [@SpyOne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SpyOne)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2014, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finding-a-hidden-wifi-network/687117/1 "2014-04-27T14:16:56Z")
There is a wifi network at my place of employment, but it is hiding from me. The store owner had it put in, and the store manager uses it from his smartphone, but my new android tablet can’t detect any wifi signal at all. The manager told me it is because the owner has it “hidden” somehow. He said that to get his phone on the wifi, he handed his phone to the owner and had him do it, so he has no idea how it was actually done. I have the Manager’s permission to access the wifi, since he trusts I will only use it for work-related things. But he doesn’t know how. Of course, the easiest thing would be to get the owner to put my pad on the network, but he is rarely in the store and almost never when I am there (I work graveyard shift). I know the network name and password, but the important first step is to get my pad to admit there is even a network there to connect to. So, can anybody explain to me how to get my pad to detect this undetectable network? If it is relevant, the wifi is from Verizon’s FiOS. ---
**Author:** ![Francis\_Vaughan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/francis_vaughan/32/3093_2.png) [@Francis\_Vaughan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Francis_Vaughan)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2014, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finding-a-hidden-wifi-network/687117/2 "2014-04-27T14:28:14Z")
You need to know the name of the network. A hidden network is simply not advertising its presence, and will only respond if you ask for it by name. You need to explicitly ask your device to connect to a network with this name. So you need to type the name into the connection control interface. After that it should be fine. Where you may get into trouble is if the owner has enable MAC address filtering. Then the base station will only respond to devices with MAC addresses that are on its allow list. To add your device would require access to the management functions of the base station. However this doesn’t sound like it has been done. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2014, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finding-a-hidden-wifi-network/687117/3 "2014-04-27T14:31:11Z")
Chances are it’s set to not broadcast its name. Since you know the name, you need to tell your device to try to explicitly connect to it, rather than try to detect it. Sort of calling out “Is there anyone named Bloggs in the room?” Then the router will say, “I’m here!” and prompt you for the password. The owner may also have restricted devices by MAC (unique hardware) addresses in which case only someone with admin access to the router can add you. ETA Damn you, **Francis Vaughan**! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![SpyOne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/82dd89/32.png) [@SpyOne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SpyOne)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2014, 8:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finding-a-hidden-wifi-network/687117/4 "2014-05-14T08:12:16Z")
Sorry I didn’t get back sooner, … I assume the advice given was good. The owner must have changed the name of the network (it isn’t what I thought it was) and then things changed making it a lot less useful to be able to get online at work. I was going to go online to get the 5 day weather forecast and to check our competitors prices on gas, which needs to be done once per day. However, we now have an automated service which reports those gas prices to us, and access to a slightly less accurate weather forecast. Weighing the benefits against the owner fretting that I am goofing around online instead of working, and it is better not to involve him, so I let it go. ---
**Author:** ![Kenm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bc79bd/32.png) [@Kenm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kenm)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2014, 8:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finding-a-hidden-wifi-network/687117/5 "2014-05-14T08:32:52Z")
I made my Airport Express base station invisible, but I wonder how easy it would be for a black hat to find it despite that. ---
**Author:** ![Francis\_Vaughan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/francis_vaughan/32/3093_2.png) [@Francis\_Vaughan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Francis_Vaughan)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2014, 8:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finding-a-hidden-wifi-network/687117/6 "2014-05-14T08:54:39Z")
> [@Kenm](#): > > I made my Airport Express base station invisible, but I wonder how easy it would be for a black hat to find it despite that. Pretty easy. The packets still fly when you are using it, so sniffing for base stations is hardly effected by not broadcasting the ident. Indeed, turning off broadcast is the mildest of speed humps for someone wishing to maliciously break into your network. It stops little more than the most casual of attacks. Similarly enabling MAC address filtering is not difficult to breach - simply by spoofing the MAC address seen in the packets that are sent from an authorised device. The only real protection is the password, and the encryption thereof. This is why the basic WEP authentication protocol is so useless. A modern laptop can brute force a WEP password in short enough time to effectively render it useless. ---
**Author:** ![AaronX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/7bcc69/32.png) [@AaronX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AaronX)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2014, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finding-a-hidden-wifi-network/687117/7 "2014-05-14T13:10:41Z")
I think for Windows you can download a simple program that will easily tell you all networks, hidden or not. I seem to remember doing this when searching for an unused channel. ---
**Author:** ![Francis\_Vaughan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/francis_vaughan/32/3093_2.png) [@Francis\_Vaughan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Francis_Vaughan)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2014, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finding-a-hidden-wifi-network/687117/8 "2014-05-14T13:29:19Z")
For the Mac one utility is inSSIDer. Same deal, it shows all visible networks that have traffic, and provide some indication of channel use. Quite handy. ---
**Author:** ![njtt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ecd19e/32.png) [@njtt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/njtt)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2014, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finding-a-hidden-wifi-network/687117/9 "2014-05-14T15:11:07Z")
> [@Francis\_Vaughan](#): > > For the Mac one utility is inSSIDer. Same deal, it shows all visible networks that have traffic, and provide some indication of channel use. Quite handy. inSSIDer is available for Windows too. ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2014, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finding-a-hidden-wifi-network/687117/10 "2014-05-15T05:01:32Z")
> [@Francis\_Vaughan](#): > > A hidden network is simply not advertising its presence, and will only respond if you ask for it by name. And now I have to say how bad an idea this is. Let’s say you have a laptop or a cell phone. If you’ve set it up to connect to a hidden network, it will ask every WiFi hotspot which doesn’t broadcast an SSID whether it’s the hidden network it’s supposed to hook up with. If the hotspot says it is, it will then give that hotspot its credentials. **In the process of trying to keep your information safe, you’ve just created a scenario where your device could tell it to any untrusted party who asks for it the right way.** If you want a secure WiFi network, use WPA2 with AES. [Here’s a bit more information.](http://www.brianfenton.us/2010/10/why-disabling-ssid-broadcast-is-bad.html) ---
**Author:** ![Cazzle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cazzle/32/75_2.png) [@Cazzle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cazzle)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2014, 5:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finding-a-hidden-wifi-network/687117/11 "2014-05-15T05:11:12Z")
> [@Kenm](#): > > I made my Airport Express base station invisible, but I wonder how easy it would be for a black hat to find it despite that. Security through obscurity isn’t security. ---
**Author:** ![AaronX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/7bcc69/32.png) [@AaronX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AaronX)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2014, 6:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finding-a-hidden-wifi-network/687117/12 "2014-05-15T06:07:27Z")
> [@Derleth](#): > > And now I have to say how bad an idea this is. Let’s say you have a laptop or a cell phone. If you’ve set it up to connect to a hidden network, it will ask every WiFi hotspot which doesn’t broadcast an SSID whether it’s the hidden network it’s supposed to hook up with. If the hotspot says it is, it will then give that hotspot its credentials. **In the process of trying to keep your information safe, you’ve just created a scenario where your device could tell it to any untrusted party who asks for it the right way.** > > If you want a secure WiFi network, use WPA2 with AES. > > [Here’s a bit more information.](http://www.brianfenton.us/2010/10/why-disabling-ssid-broadcast-is-bad.html) In other words, not broadcasting your SSID means your device will ask every other network if this is your hidden network, making it LESS secure. ---
**Author:** ![Kenm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bc79bd/32.png) [@Kenm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kenm)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2014, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finding-a-hidden-wifi-network/687117/13 "2014-05-15T12:55:55Z")
> [@AaronX](#): > > In other words, not broadcasting your SSID means your device will ask every other network if this is your hidden network, making it LESS secure. I have “Ask to join networks” turned off, so that might help. When off, it states, “Known networks will be joined automatically. If no known networks are available, you will have to manually select a network.” With “Ask to join networks” is on, it states, “Known networks will be joined automatically. If no known networks are available, you will be asked before joining a new network.” ---
**Author:** ![AaronX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/7bcc69/32.png) [@AaronX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AaronX)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2014, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finding-a-hidden-wifi-network/687117/14 "2014-05-15T14:23:17Z")
> [@Kenm](#): > > I have “Ask to join networks” turned off, so that might help. > > When off, it states, “Known networks will be joined automatically. If no known networks are available, you will have to manually select a network.” > > With “Ask to join networks” is on, it states, “Known networks will be joined automatically. If no known networks are available, you will be asked before joining a new network.” I don’t think it makes a difference. What happens is, if your home network is “abcd”, and your device doesn’t see “abcd”, it asks every network, “hey, are you abcd?”. Thus broadcasting your network name to everyone when it can’t find that network. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2014, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finding-a-hidden-wifi-network/687117/15 "2014-05-15T14:44:59Z")
> [@AaronX](#): > > In other words, not broadcasting your SSID means your device will ask every other network if this is your hidden network, making it LESS secure. Does that really matter? I mean, only people who own networks which are not in range of mine could ever possibly find out. It’s not like my phone is broadcasting my address. ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2014, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finding-a-hidden-wifi-network/687117/16 "2014-05-15T15:32:37Z")
> [@Eliahna](#): > > Security through obscurity isn’t security. Really? Then post your social security number right here. Only a fool thinks keeping things secret is the _only_ security, but it’s a bigger fool that thinks keeping things secret it not a good idea. Yes, a master hacker could get into your system if you hide the SSID, but not all people trying to get into the system are master hackers. A hidden SSID would keep the casual user from getting into your system, and will also send hackers elsewhere (why go to the trouble of sniffing it out when there are plenty of others easily available?) ---
**Author:** ![Duckster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duckster/32/1244_2.png) [@Duckster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duckster)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2014, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finding-a-hidden-wifi-network/687117/17 "2014-05-15T15:38:57Z")
> [@Eliahna](#): > > Security through obscurity isn’t security. Hiding things in plain sight works quite well. ---
**Author:** ![AaronX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/7bcc69/32.png) [@AaronX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AaronX)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2014, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finding-a-hidden-wifi-network/687117/18 "2014-05-16T00:51:49Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Does that really matter? I mean, only people who own networks which are not in range of mine could ever possibly find out. It’s not like my phone is broadcasting my address. No, not really. Knowing your SSID doesn’t do much. But it makes troubleshooting more difficult. ---
**Author:** ![Cazzle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cazzle/32/75_2.png) [@Cazzle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cazzle)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2014, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finding-a-hidden-wifi-network/687117/19 "2014-05-16T03:08:13Z")
> [@RealityChuck](#): > > Really? Then post your social security number right here. > > Only a fool thinks keeping things secret is the _only_ security, but it’s a bigger fool that thinks keeping things secret it not a good idea. > > Yes, a master hacker could get into your system if you hide the SSID, but not all people trying to get into the system are master hackers. A hidden SSID would keep the casual user from getting into your system, and will also send hackers elsewhere (why go to the trouble of sniffing it out when there are plenty of others easily available?) Who are you protecting your network from? The subset of people who can defeat actual security (WEP, WPA, WPA2) but lack the ability to find a hidden network must be vanishingly small. Hidden wifi offers no real additional protection to the network owner as it is trivial to overcome. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2014, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finding-a-hidden-wifi-network/687117/20 "2014-05-16T20:12:42Z")
> [@RealityChuck](#): > > Really? Then post your social security number right here. > > Only a fool thinks keeping things secret is the _only_ security, but it’s a bigger fool that thinks keeping things secret it not a good idea. > > Yes, a master hacker could get into your system if you hide the SSID, but not all people trying to get into the system are master hackers. A hidden SSID would keep the casual user from getting into your system, and will also send hackers elsewhere (why go to the trouble of sniffing it out when there are plenty of others easily available?) The point is that a hidden SSID is actually less secure than one that is visible. It is actually easier to hack a network with a hidden SSID than the same one without one. This was explained upthread–by hiding the SSID, you make the client have to ask every network. All you have to do is set up a fake network that will say it has whatever SSID it is being asked for, and then any client will log in and just give you the security info you need to log in to the real network. You can get close on a network that broadcasts its SSID by trying to just mimic all SSIDs being broadcast in an area, but that’s a bit more difficult, and relies on having fairly powerful equipment that can compete with the real signal. The above can be done with the same laptop, tablet, or even phone that you would normally use, as long as you get the right software. So it’s still easier. So, sure, it will keep out people who don’t know much about Wi-fi. But no better than just proper encryption. And it works better against any Wi-fi hackers. Hiding your SSID is a net negative. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finding-a-hidden-wifi-network/687117.md?page=2)