# Finding water with coat hangers **URL:** \ **Category:** Cecil's Columns/Staff Reports\ **Created:** [October 21, 2008, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finding-water-with-coat-hangers/468954 "2008-10-21T21:55:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2008, 7:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finding-water-with-coat-hangers/468954/101 "2008-11-04T07:26:49Z")
Do YOU have anything to say other than reciting Randi dogma? ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2008, 7:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finding-water-with-coat-hangers/468954/102 "2008-11-04T07:30:17Z")
My substantive comment as to why my posts are precisely on topic can be found in the first paragraph of my post #94. If you have anything of substance to say about the OP, please do so. Otherwise, over and out. I will not participate in a childish snarkfight. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2008, 7:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finding-water-with-coat-hangers/468954/103 "2008-11-04T07:53:51Z")
Childish snarkfights is what Randi is all about. Can you comment on dowsing without talking about Randi? Let’s hear what YOU think. Say something original that isn’t copying what Randi told you. Don’t let Randi do all your thinling for you, make a comment of your own. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2008, 8:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finding-water-with-coat-hangers/468954/104 "2008-11-04T08:00:29Z")
No substance. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2008, 8:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finding-water-with-coat-hangers/468954/105 "2008-11-04T08:10:34Z")
Say something original, something that comes from your own mind, anything other than what Randi told you, or shut up. ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2008, 9:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finding-water-with-coat-hangers/468954/106 "2008-11-04T09:22:08Z")
> [@Don\_t\_fight\_the\_hypothetical](#): > > I don’t believe in dowsing. I was suggesting an easy way for the OP to test himself. No problem. But let’s think this through…you are suggesting a blindfolded dowser standing over (a platform?) with water (in hoses? pipes?) being moved beneath him. Is that a capsule of your idea? If so, consider how subjective that might be. How close to the hose did he come? Did the rod detect it this time or was that just a false move? Did the testee hear the hose being shoved over? Was there water in the hose at the time, or just air? Instead, how about the jugs-of-water-under-a-box concept I mentioned earlier? Take 10 identical plastic jugs like the kind you buy bottled water in, and for each, flip a coin. Heads, that one is filled with sand; tails, water. Place the jugs in a row and have the dowser test them, UN-blindfolded. Move them apart as he directs to avoid one “contaminating” another. I have no doubt he will be able to tell which is which and this test will be a 100% success. Next, remove the dowser from the area so he can’t see the next step. Randomly move the jugs to a different sequence and put an opaque box over each. Remove all testers (the ones that moved or filled the jugs) from the test area and return the dowser to it. Now let’s see if he can determine which is which, and don’t reveal the answer to any until all have been checked. My guess, based on similar tests in the past with “expert” dowsers, is that he will perform with about 50% accuracy, or the same level as someone who tossed a coin to decide what was in each jug. Now there are some slight problems with this proposal, and it could be refined (the dowser didn’t test a known jug with a box over it, for example, and the percentage of water-filled jugs was fixed at the start), but the concept is sound, and not prone to subjective interpretation. He got X right and Y wrong, and there’s no in-between. If he got 100% right when he knew the contents of each jug, but something like 50% when he didn’t, doesn’t that tell you something? ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2008, 12:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finding-water-with-coat-hangers/468954/107 "2008-11-04T12:00:44Z")
Musicat writes: \> Instead, how about the jugs-of-water-under-a-box concept I mentioned \> earlier? Take 10 identical plastic jugs like the kind you buy bottled water in, and \> for each, flip a coin. Heads, that one is filled with sand; tails, water. Place the \> jugs in a row and have the dowser test them, UN-blindfolded. Move them apart \> as he directs to avoid one “contaminating” another. I have no doubt he will be \> able to tell which is which and this test will be a 100% success. I once proposed something very like this to a dowser. He got angry at the very suggestion. He considered that dowsing didn’t need any more proof. Peter Morris writes: \> Registration is required, but it’s free. I can’t give a direct link because you need \> to log in. Please take a moment to register and look for yourself. \> \> The JREF takes in hundreds of thousands of dollars per year in donations and \> membership fees. Their main running expense is the salary that Randi pays \> himself, plus contributions to Randi’s pension fund, plus staff benefits, etc etc \> etc. About half of all donations go to pay JREF staff, and it appears that Randi is \> the only one actually paid, all the others are unpaid volunteers. I never register for a website (well, other than the SDMB). I’m not going to give out my E-mail address to somebody who can spam me. Just tell me how much money Randi makes per year from his foundation. \> I don’t know how much he makes from book sales and TV appearences. His book sales and TV appearances are irrelevant to your claim that he’s making himself rich from his foundation. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2008, 1:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finding-water-with-coat-hangers/468954/108 "2008-11-04T13:01:15Z")
> [@Wendell\_Wagner](#): > > Just tell me how much money Randi makes per year from his foundation. $175k to Randi on revenues of about $800k in 2007. About 150k goes to other employees, about $250k goes to organising conferences, and about $130k on office, comms etc. Then there’s various smaller items. Randi makes his money out of doing his sceptical thing, no two ways. Lots of people make money out of doing things. Suggesting this is relevant is just a distraction. The only real question is whether the JREF runs its challenge with a reasonable degree of fairness and there’s no evidence to the contrary. There’s no evidence here that the OP won’t get what he wants by applying to the JREF. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2008, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finding-water-with-coat-hangers/468954/109 "2008-11-04T14:30:23Z")
> [@Princhester](#): > > There’s no evidence here that the OP won’t get what he wants by applying to the JREF. Unless, of course, what the OP wants is for people to take him at his word without providing any evidence. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2008, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finding-water-with-coat-hangers/468954/110 "2008-11-04T14:44:53Z")
Hey, you’re willing to accept Randi’s word without evidence. In fact you’re perfectly happy to turn a blind eye when he’s obviously lying. ---
**Author:** ![SiXSwordS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/49beb7/32.png) [@SiXSwordS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SiXSwordS)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2008, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finding-water-with-coat-hangers/468954/111 "2008-11-04T15:00:11Z")
> [@Musicat](#): > > .. \*There is no ability or skill yet demonstrated.\*Everyone has read Cecil’s column, right?(All bolding & italics are mine) I did read the column. Unfortunately, at this point, this thread has well and truly gotten away from me. (I just don’t have time to keep up with the links and the various posts right now.) Also, the interposter wars make it a bit difficult. My interest was in going through with a test of my own and being willing to give it a try. Also, I would like to see someone demonstrate this alleged talent. I like to think that it is keeping with the spirit of the boards to spend $5.00 and an afternoon in the backyard to take a look for one’s self, even if only to witness the ideomotor effect. ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2008, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finding-water-with-coat-hangers/468954/112 "2008-11-04T18:29:25Z")
> [@SiXSwordS](#): > > My interest was in going through with a test of my own and being willing to give it a try. Also, I would like to see someone demonstrate this alleged talent. AFAIK, there are many local dowser’s clubs – why don’t you try to find one? Maybe ask in local astrology parlors (no, I’m not kidding), well drillers, or check with the nearest university connection. It’s doubtful if a university would have a formal connection with any dowsers, but a geology or agriculture department might be aware of some. Then, once they have demonstrated the technique on their own terms, why don’t you try to set up a double-blind test? For assistance in this regard, I suggest contacting the nearest skeptic group. I think it would be a valuable learning experience for all. And if you do all this, why not come back to SDMB and tell us how it went (the trials & tribulations, etc.) regardless of success and/or failure? And save your five bucks. Just cut a Y-shaped piece of flexible wooden branch, hold it, one part of the Y in each hand, with palms up and stick pointing forward or up. Then tighten your grip and see how the stick swings. A very tight grip may cause the bark to peel off. Also try NOT to tighten your grip and see what happens. Walk around and test it. Of course, this is only one method, but maybe the most common one I’ve seen. If you think you are detecting water, try giving the same stick, with instructions, to someone else who did not see you performing, and have them walk around the same area _without_ your presence. Did they get the same reaction at the same spot(s)? Good luck and may the wet spots be yours! ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2008, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finding-water-with-coat-hangers/468954/113 "2008-11-04T18:43:55Z")
> [@atoyot92](#): > > I am simply stating that I can find water lines in the ground. For example I can go into somones yard and find where thier septic system is just by using those rods. I can measure out the drain field and show them where thier tanks are. So can I, but we don’t need no stinkin’ rods! Only amateurs need crutches! As a Realtor in a rural area, I often need to know where residential wells and septic facilities are. First, I look for the wellhead or septic tank cover, also vents and cleared areas. Mound systems are obvious, cause they look like…a mound. Drain fields are pretty simple; they usually lead away from a house but are not far from it, and connect to a septic tank or pump. Now if I wanted to appear psychic, I’d use the same clues, but use a fake tool like a rod or pendulum. I absolutely guarantee that it will “react” as I tell people to expect. The gullible will believe that I am using occult powers if I claim such, but the smart people will see thru my scheme. **atoyot92,** you have a total of 2 posts on the board, both in this thread, and the last one was almost 2 weeks ago. Why did you start this thread? Do you plan on returning to discuss it, defend your position, learn something new, or shall we just mark you down as another ignorant, indignant drive-by? ---
**Author:** ![SiXSwordS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/49beb7/32.png) [@SiXSwordS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SiXSwordS)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2008, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finding-water-with-coat-hangers/468954/114 "2008-11-04T19:21:12Z")
> [@Musicat](#): > > AFAIK, there are many local dowser’s clubs – why don’t you try to find one? The main reason I’ve had to skip over a lot of the links in this thread is simple timing — I’m way busy right now. I found the American Society of Dowsers (no club in my city :() and I got an e-mail address, but anything more will just have to wait. > [@](#): > > And if you do all this, why not come back to SDMB and tell us how it went (the trials & tribulations, etc.) regardless of success and/or failure? Sounds fair. > [@](#): > > And save your five bucks. Just cut a Y-shaped piece of flexible wooden branch… The claim and the video use copper rods (coat hangers). I’d like to focus on this one claim and approach. > [@](#): > > Good luck and may the wet spots be yours! And Randi can keep his million dollars! ---
**Author:** ![jadler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/a87d85/32.png) [@jadler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jadler)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2008, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finding-water-with-coat-hangers/468954/115 "2008-11-04T21:43:59Z")
This can be settled easily with a record of some video footage. Something that can at least let us know there’s a possibility of it being true. Without any record of your ability what’s to stop you from lying about it? Then again why would you need to? hmm. perhaps this will lead me into some philosophical debates with myself… \ ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2008, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finding-water-with-coat-hangers/468954/116 "2008-11-04T23:47:41Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Unless, of course, what the OP wants is for people to take him at his word without providing any evidence. But that’s not what he said, and being very open minded I accept what he said. No doubt the OP is rather busy at the moment and will revert shortly. ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2008, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finding-water-with-coat-hangers/468954/117 "2008-11-04T23:55:59Z")
> [@SiXSwordS](#): > > The claim and the video use copper rods (coat hangers). I’d like to focus on this one claim and approach. OK. So go to the hardware store and get some copper rods and some sleeves that they fit into snuggly but not tightly. Cut the rods into an L shape and insert the short end into the sleeves (tubes). Hold them so the long ends are horizontal. Or dispense with the tubes and just hold them in your hands. Coat hangers? Sure. There will be a little more friction, but it should work. A little experimentation with length will show you that the longer the long end of the rods, the more “sensitive” they are and the harder it is to keep them level. Try tilting your hand ever-so-slightly and see how they spin around. **Note that the only significant forces involved here that we know about are gravity and friction.** And those are _very_ predictable, _very_ reliable, and _very_ understood. No mysteries here. Next, try walking around the house, trying to hold them steady. Experiment in how they can swing with a slight movement or tilt of the hand. Can you make them swing or not at will without a blatant, obvious movement of your hand? I thought you could. Now pretend you “know” water is beneath your couch. Can you make the rod agree with you? Sure you can. If you feel that they are moving contrary to the control exerted by your hands, maybe it’s time for a double-blind test with water jugs. Onward… ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2008, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finding-water-with-coat-hangers/468954/118 "2008-11-05T01:09:09Z")
> [@Peter\_Morris](#): > > Hey, you’re willing to accept Randi’s word without evidence. In fact you’re perfectly happy to turn a blind eye when he’s obviously lying. This thread is not about James Randi, or your personal obsession with James Randi. Knock it off. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2008, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finding-water-with-coat-hangers/468954/119 "2008-11-05T01:12:11Z")
> [@Princhester](#): > > But that’s not what he said, and being very open minded I accept what he said. No doubt the OP is rather busy at the moment and will revert shortly. He said that he would respond to private email, not that he would respond _here_. Unless he is willing to give permission to reprint said email here, he has nothing for us. ---
**Author:** ![fisha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/da6949/32.png) [@fisha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fisha)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2008, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finding-water-with-coat-hangers/468954/120 "2008-11-05T02:26:42Z")
**SiXSwordS** , another option is to talk to some old utility guys, the ones who have had to do locates through the years. It may take you a while to earn their trust, and will probably cost you a few beers, but it’d be another data point. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finding-water-with-coat-hangers/468954.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finding-water-with-coat-hangers/468954.md?page=7)