# Fine, I'm a grinch **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 27, 2004, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fine-im-a-grinch/276835 "2004-11-27T04:12:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Syntropy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/65b543/32.png) [@Syntropy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Syntropy)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2004, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fine-im-a-grinch/276835/41 "2004-11-27T21:02:31Z")
> [@LaurAnge](#): > > If Christians co-opted pagan rituals, they did it after the time which I’ve studied. Which goes up to about 500 CE. > > No, Christmas is not Saturnalia, or Yule, or the Sostice. Those are all Dec. 21. You might notice a four-day difference there. The only argument that could be made about the placing of Jesus’ birthday is that it was ‘The day of the Unconquered Sun’ which may or may not have been some sort of Mithraic holiday. > > I don’t doubt that some things came to be associated with Christmas that were not Christian, and were probably folk traditions, like trees, mistletoe etc. But I sincerely doubt any of the church hierarchy approved of any of these things, much less deliberately incorporated them. You may want to go back and study 320CE, when the Catholic church decided to make Jesus’ birth December the 25th. It was widely stated that Mary bore Jesus on the 25th day, but no actual month was ever named. In fact, December is highly suspect, as it was supposedly during lambing season (spring), which is usually the only time shepherds “watch their flocks by night.” Christmas didn’t even become a civic holiday til 529 CE., as per the Council of Braga. ---
**Author:** ![Helen\_s\_Eidolon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Helen\_s\_Eidolon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Helen_s_Eidolon)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2004, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fine-im-a-grinch/276835/42 "2004-11-27T21:22:31Z")
> [@Maureen](#): > > You may want to go back and study 320CE, when the Catholic church decided to make Jesus’ birth December the 25th. It was widely stated that Mary bore Jesus on the 25th day, but no actual month was ever named. In fact, December is highly suspect, as it was supposedly during lambing season (spring), which is usually the only time shepherds “watch their flocks by night.” > > Christmas didn’t even become a civic holiday til 529 CE., as per the Council of Braga. Okay, so they decided it was Dec. 25, obviously someone had to decide that at some point. I still see no ‘pagan’ reason to make it Dec. 25. ---
**Author:** ![CrazyCatLady](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/dfb087/32.png) [@CrazyCatLady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CrazyCatLady)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2004, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fine-im-a-grinch/276835/43 "2004-11-27T21:28:19Z")
Well, if you’re laying this frankly rather insulting laundry list out for someone who asks why you don’t want to go to the mall with her…yeah, you’re a grinch. Not wanting to do the Christmas thing doesn’t make you a grinch, but trying to suck somebody else’s enjoyment out of it because you don’t want to take part certainly does. That’s what grinchiness is about, after all; trying to take other people’s joy away because you don’t like it. If you’re not doing that, then your aunt is probably being a jerk. And yes, I’m one of those irritating people who trims the tree as soon as Thanksgiving is over. I’m usually playing Christmas carols and wearing a reindeer antler headband while I do it. If I can ever find a red nose that’s comfy enough for all-day wear, I’m adding it to my Christmas-shopping ensemble. So what if it’s a whole month till Christmas? I’ve got enough joy and love to last for the duration. If you try to put a damper on said joy and love, say by making repeated comments about how you think it out be illegal to put the tree up or sing carols before December 10, for your own pissy reasons, then I’m going to call you a grinch. ---
**Author:** ![Syntropy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/65b543/32.png) [@Syntropy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Syntropy)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2004, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fine-im-a-grinch/276835/44 "2004-11-27T21:34:23Z")
> [@LaurAnge](#): > > Okay, so they decided it was Dec. 25, obviously someone had to decide that at some point. > > I still see no ‘pagan’ reason to make it Dec. 25. Well, there is no ‘pagan’ reason to make it that date, other than it got the church what they wanted; namely converts. _shrug_ It’s not as if the Catholic church was above resorting to whatever means they felt necessary to ensuring the domination of their religion. Quite a few of what are now called “pagan” holidays, right down to St. Valentines Day (the Lupercalia), were adopted by the church, including the rituals that went with them. ---
**Author:** ![Helen\_s\_Eidolon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Helen\_s\_Eidolon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Helen_s_Eidolon)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2004, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fine-im-a-grinch/276835/45 "2004-11-27T21:43:17Z")
> [@Maureen](#): > > Well, there is no ‘pagan’ reason to make it that date, other than it got the church what they wanted; namely converts. _shrug_ It’s not as if the Catholic church was above resorting to whatever means they felt necessary to ensuring the domination of their religion. Quite a few of what are now called “pagan” holidays, right down to St. Valentines Day (the Lupercalia), were adopted by the church, including the rituals that went with them. Yes, but Dec. 25th ISN’T the solstice, so I’m not sure how it would have gotten them any converts. Plus, as you said, Christmas was not celebrated until significantly later, and by the 6th century they didn’t need to worry at all about converting people. Also, I have no information on it so I’m not disputing your point, but I’d love to see a cite about the Lupercalia being equivalent to St. Valentine’s day. Sorry for the hijack and I want to assure Maureen that this argument has no animosity on my part, as a student of ancient history, I get nitpicky about stuff like this 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2004, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fine-im-a-grinch/276835/46 "2004-11-27T21:50:05Z")
My standard greeting at this time of year: Have yourself a merry little Christmas. Just don’t drag me into it. ---
**Author:** ![Syntropy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/65b543/32.png) [@Syntropy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Syntropy)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2004, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fine-im-a-grinch/276835/47 "2004-11-27T21:54:01Z")
> [@LaurAnge](#): > > Yes, but Dec. 25th ISN’T the solstice, so I’m not sure how it would have gotten them any converts. Plus, as you said, Christmas was not celebrated until significantly later, and by the 6th century they didn’t need to worry at all about converting people. > > Also, I have no information on it so I’m not disputing your point, but I’d love to see a cite about the Lupercalia being equivalent to St. Valentine’s day. > > Sorry for the hijack and I want to assure Maureen that this argument has no animosity on my part, as a student of ancient history, I get nitpicky about stuff like this 🙂 No, no animosity taken. 🙂 Check your email. **NinjaChick** , we’ll continue this one off line instead of further cluttering your thread. ---
**Author:** ![yosemite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/3ab097/32.png) [@yosemite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yosemite)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2004, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fine-im-a-grinch/276835/48 "2004-11-27T22:20:24Z")
**monstro** pretty much said what I was going to say. I often make the gifts that I give. Partly because I’m cheap, and partly because the people in my family know that making them is more personal. My family associates “homemade” with “made with love” and to us, it’s a good thing. I have given out pottery, paintings, sewn garments as gifts. One of my aunts especially loved that portrait I drew of her favorite opera singer (which, alas, got destroyed in the Northridge quake). My other sisters have sewn me gifts, made dolls, ceramics, etc., and they all are _so cool_. One of my aunties needlepoints gifts, and they still adorn our walls and are something we treasure. But sometimes purchased gifts are special too. When I was in high school, one of my sisters gave me my first stereo set. (Never had my own before that.) I treasured that thing. Then one Christmas I asked for something I thought might not exist: The soundtrack to the Ingmar Bergman opera _Trollflöjten_ (Mozart’s The Magic Flute). But my dad searched around a whole lot, and dug up a copy. I don’t know when I’d been so absolutely delighted. I remember the pleased and proud look on my dad’s face when I opened the present—Classical and opera were his favorite kind of music and he was very pleased that his kids had embraced it too. In fact, I just watched the DVD for _Trollflöjten_ yesterday and therefore was recalling that wonderful Christmas memory. Christmas is what you make of it. You enjoy it in any way that you can . . . just so long as you _enjoy_ it and get something positive out of it. ---
**Author:** ![Gala\_Matrix\_Fire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4da419/32.png) [@Gala\_Matrix\_Fire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gala_Matrix_Fire)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2004, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fine-im-a-grinch/276835/49 "2004-11-27T22:34:14Z")
My brother had an idea that I think would go over big with many people in this thread, and I propose we adopt it: celebrate Christmas once every four years. I can already see the Time magazine cover a few years down the road, dissecting this new trend of people who skip three years in a row of Christmas. It won’t work for people with young children, but it’ll work for everybody else. So who’s on board? We should go ahead and do Christmas this year, since it’s too late to back out, and then ignore it until Dec 2008. ---
**Author:** ![NinjaChick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/71c47a/32.png) [@NinjaChick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NinjaChick)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2004, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fine-im-a-grinch/276835/50 "2004-11-27T22:44:31Z")
> [@yosemite](#): > > Christmas is what you make of it. You enjoy it in any way that you can . . . just so long as you _enjoy_ it and get something positive out of it. Okay, see, that’s basically the root of my problem (not to personally single you out, **yosemite** , but since you happened to say that…) right there. Generally speaking, I enjoy life. Yes, there are a few exceptions, as there are for everyone. But as a general rule, I enjoy life, enjoy living, etc. I don’t celebrate Christmas. I don’t celebrate Hanukah. I spend time with family, and they celebrate those holidays. They do mean _something_ to me, in that I get to be with family (which I attempt to see as a good thing, but that’s an entirely different rant) who I don’t often see. So, if I were to spend time with family on March 25th, rather than December, it would be the same thing. Why must I enjoy other people’s holidays? I don’t enjoy, say, Ramadan: it doesn’t effect me in the least. I cannot _stand_ people telling me that I should be having a good time because, essentially, Hallmark says so. Also, the thing about mass-produced shit? I mean shit that people buy becuase it’s expensive and/or trendy, with little thought about the person they’re buying for. I don’t actually object to giving gifts. Just put some thought into who you’re gifting, rather than what some morning talk show said was the most trendy coffee-maker of the year, or whatever the fuck pop culture says. ---
**Author:** ![asterion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4da419/32.png) [@asterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asterion)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2004, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fine-im-a-grinch/276835/51 "2004-11-27T23:10:35Z")
The way I see it, decorations can go up in late November/early December. Not right after Thanksgiving, but maybe on Sunday, which is generally the first week of Advent. As long as we’re in Pentacost, no decorations! (And I’m not even very religious. I just think it’s a good guideline.) ---
**Author:** ![yosemite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/3ab097/32.png) [@yosemite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yosemite)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2004, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fine-im-a-grinch/276835/52 "2004-11-27T23:17:25Z")
> [@NinjaChick](#): > > I cannot _stand_ people telling me that I should be having a good time because, essentially, Hallmark says so. You’re mistaking my point. I’m saying that Christmas is what you make out of it—a religious holiday, a secular holiday, a blend of the two, or whatever. Nobody else has the right to dictate what Christmas is to someone else. Which, you know, is kind of what you’re doing. You’re trying to dictate to others what it _should_ be. You don’t need to do that. Don’t rain on their parade. And true, nobody has a right to dictate to you what Christmas should be to you. In your case, it’s nothing. No problem. Don’t care, don’t care, don’t care what you do on Christmas. Have a nice day, eat sushi—personally, I don’t care, don’t care, don’t care. Tell the people who are actively pestering you to bug off, but don’t rain on everyone else’s parade. ---
**Author:** ![Moirai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/96bed5/32.png) [@Moirai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moirai)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2004, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fine-im-a-grinch/276835/53 "2004-11-28T01:07:05Z")
> [@Omega Glory](#): > > It was tacky for people that don’t like your beliefs and practices to look down on you and lecture, and it’s still tacky for you to do it to anyone else. Amen! ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2004, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fine-im-a-grinch/276835/54 "2004-11-28T03:29:57Z")
> [@NinjaChick](#): > > Also, the thing about mass-produced shit? I mean shit that people buy becuase it’s expensive and/or trendy, with little thought about the person they’re buying for. I don’t actually object to giving gifts. Just put some thought into who you’re gifting, rather than what some morning talk show said was the most trendy coffee-maker of the year, or whatever the fuck pop culture says. How many people outside of television shows actually DO this? Oh, I’m sure there’s some who do, but I don’t know any. I doubt most people are surrounded by yuppies who only buy trendy gifts. Most people just buy whatever they think the receipient wants or needs. ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2004, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fine-im-a-grinch/276835/55 "2004-11-28T04:06:26Z")
> [@Ferret Herder](#): > > Sure, Christians co-opted Saturnalia - in order to allow them to celebrate without prosecution. The Romans probably co-opted some predecessor to Saturnalia… Minor nitpick, but the Romans _were_ the Christians. You probably meant “pre-Christian Romans” in the second sentence, so this is probably a pointless nitpick. > [@LaurAnge](#): > > No, Christmas is not Saturnalia, or Yule, or the Sostice. Those are all Dec. 21. You might notice a four-day difference there. The only argument that could be made about the placing of Jesus’ birthday is that it was ‘The day of the Unconquered Sun’ which may or may not have been some sort of Mithraic holiday. My understanding is that the co-opted Pagan holiday was celebrated for at least a week, possibly two, so a discrepancy of 4 days would be entirely moot. > [@NinjaChick in the OP](#): > > I don’t want to demean my closest loved ones by giving them mass-produced shit, which likely was made by slave labor in sweatshops, all outside of the US. You’re talking about things like Furbie, right? I agree 100%. ---
**Author:** ![TVeblen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/4bbf92/32.png) [@TVeblen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TVeblen)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2004, 6:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fine-im-a-grinch/276835/56 "2004-11-28T06:40:39Z")
> [@NinjaChick](#): > > Christmas, interestingly enough, is not about gifts. I apologize if I’m overstepping my bounds, not being Christian and all, but isn’t it supposed to be about Jesus? And if not that, at least about family and loved ones? I guess some people are just big, gaping, oozing pustules that are badly infected, so they need to buy loved ones. With gifts. Christmas, interestingly enough, is about a lot of different things to a lot of different people. Kindness and good will toward others is usually included somewhere in the packet. That might even include giving gifts to other people, you know, to show love, appreciation and maybe make 'em happy. Why all the hate and bile for that, **NinjaChick**? I’m rather curious exactly what _you’re_ getting from your automatic contempt for such “gaping, oozing pustules who have to buy love.” I’m not religious, nor a big fan of Christmas hype. I pretty much overdose on ornaments and muzak Christmas carols by Dec. 1st. As for judging the emotional or religious investment other people place on the holiday? None of my business, thanks anyway. Nor, may I gently suggest, is it yours. The outer trappings can be pretty hard to ignore but hey, anything that encourages people toward generosity, goodwill and charity sure beats the usual default impulses…like, say, what you’re exhibiting in this thread. You have every right to hate the hell outta Christmas, New Years, Halloween, Ramadan, Yom Kippur, Mothers’ Day, Veterans’ Day, Easter and any ol’ event other people observe. You _don’t_ have the right to get all pissy, self-righteous and judgmental toward every fool who doesn’t think exactly like you do. You’ve vented at length about people who don’t show proper respect, understanding and depth of knowledge about your commitment to martial arts…but then you rip off your harsh demands how others should _observe Christmas properly_? Sorry, toots, I think you need a little more work on the self-discipline stuff. Not to mention respect and courtesy toward others. Have yourself a merry little Christmas, now. Veb ---
**Author:** ![picunurse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7bcc69/32.png) [@picunurse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/picunurse)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2004, 6:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fine-im-a-grinch/276835/57 "2004-11-28T06:51:55Z")
> [@NinjaChick](#): > > 1. Christmas is _ **NOT** _ a fucking “American holiday”. It is a CHRISTIAN holiday. Actually, I think it started out as a Catholic mass Christ_mas_ Michael_mas_ The rest of the Christian world picked it up later. I guess it seemed like a good idea at the time. Who knew. ---
**Author:** ![Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e19adc/32.png) [@Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2004, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fine-im-a-grinch/276835/58 "2004-11-28T15:31:44Z")
**Laurange** , the 25th is close enough to the 21st for government work. Or pagan celebrations when only a couple of druids were doing the astronomical work. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![The\_Punkyova](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@The\_Punkyova](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Punkyova)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2004, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fine-im-a-grinch/276835/59 "2004-11-28T21:32:53Z")
The 21st/25th difference has to do with the Julian calendar. The solstice was on the 25th at one point, and the Gregorian calendar correction moved it back to the 21st. Yes, the church has always “picked up” pagan celebrations, but not as part of an organized campaign to win converts. The church leaders/missionaries tend to be real zealots who try to stamp out vestiges of paganism. The celebrations stick around because they are fun, because people have “always” done them, and because those two things trump any kind of theological reasoning for most people. The typical pre-industrial European Christian practice was to celebrate the 12 days of Christmas, between Christmas Day proper and Epiphany, when the Wise Men visited Jesus. As **Rhubarb** said, agricultural societies need a break at that time. The Wise Men brought presents to Jesus, so Christians gave gifts. There were small gifts given on the first 11 days, but Epiphany itself was the major gift giving occasion. (The carol “The 12 Days of Christmas” has remnants of this tradition.) When we industialized, we were no longer sitting at home doing nothing all winter, so the holidays were compressed and everything went into Christmas Day itself. Plus, some huge percentage of yearly retail sales are made in the run-up to Christmas, and we get a lot of pressure to buy from advertising and merchants who are counting on us to make the year profitable rather than not. I got some of this from an interesting book called “Unplug the Christmas Machine,” which also contains a section on the unspoken rules of gift giving. The authors make the point that you are unlikely to get rid of Christmas, but you should know where the “image” of the “perfect Christmas” comes from, decide what is important to you, and celebrate in a way that reflects what you find most important. I recommend it, at least for some thought provoking questions. ---
**Author:** ![5que](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/5/3bc359/32.png) [@5que](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/5que)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2004, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fine-im-a-grinch/276835/60 "2004-11-28T22:29:53Z")
> [@scout1222](#): > > Dude. You’re just bitter because someone gave you a combo gift, aren’t you? No, wait! A birthday present wrapped IN CHRISTMAS PAPER. Even better! You wanted a birthday party but no one could come because they were out of town for the holidays. It was all combo gifts, my friend. Not that I’m bitter about it. Excuse me while I go polish my guns in the dark… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fine-im-a-grinch/276835.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fine-im-a-grinch/276835.md?page=4)