# Fined while taking driving lesson: who pays? (UK) **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [July 11, 2008, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fined-while-taking-driving-lesson-who-pays-uk/456127 "2008-07-11T13:58:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Lars\_Aruns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c68b51/32.png) [@Lars\_Aruns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lars_Aruns)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2008, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fined-while-taking-driving-lesson-who-pays-uk/456127/1 "2008-07-11T13:58:49Z")
Mrs Aruns is taking driving lessons, and had a stroke of bad luck. She was caught speeding during a lesson by a mobile speeding camera, and now the instructor wants her to pay the fine. I am not quite sure that feels right: after all, she was learning and so was under the responsibility of the driving teacher. I am trying to find out whose responsibility it is, but to be honest I don’t know where to start. I couldn’t find anything about it on the site of the DVLA, the agency that handles car and driver licensing in the UK. Where could I look? ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2008, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fined-while-taking-driving-lesson-who-pays-uk/456127/2 "2008-07-11T14:05:21Z")
[QUOTE=Lars Aruns] she was learning and so was under the responsibility of the driving teacher. [/QUOTE] I can’t see how this is the case, not to the point where the supervising passenger (which is all the instructor is, in legal terms) has responsibility for offences. I think she needs to cough up, and unfortunately take the points, too, which might make insurance expensive once she’s passed the test. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2008, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fined-while-taking-driving-lesson-who-pays-uk/456127/3 "2008-07-11T14:40:15Z")
Are driving school cars in the UK equipped with double pedals, like they are in Spain? If one of us had so much as thought about speeding, Chero would have stepped on those right fast. In Spain that would make it his responsibility, so long as the car is properly equipped (i.e, if I’d been driving Dad’s car with Dad in the passenger seat under my learner’s license, and I had sped, it would have been my responsibility, as he couldn’t physically stop me). ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2008, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fined-while-taking-driving-lesson-who-pays-uk/456127/4 "2008-07-11T15:07:01Z")
Dual controls, clutch & brake, yes. However, I don’t think it’s considered appropriate to use them merely to regulate speed - in my experience they’re only used for emergency stops, and sometimes for visually demonstrating the use of the clutch to beginners. ---
**Author:** ![Full\_Metal\_Lotus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/df705f/32.png) [@Full\_Metal\_Lotus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Full_Metal_Lotus)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2008, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fined-while-taking-driving-lesson-who-pays-uk/456127/5 "2008-07-11T16:17:12Z")
the most important lesson a driving teacher can impart to the student is that the DRIVER is responsible for the vehicle, its operations and its passengers, (s)he is completely responsible. Of course the fine is hers’ and hers’ alone. FML ---
**Author:** ![ZenBeam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/3ab097/32.png) [@ZenBeam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZenBeam)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2008, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fined-while-taking-driving-lesson-who-pays-uk/456127/6 "2008-07-11T17:10:15Z")
My opinion is that Mrs. Aruns should be responsible if that’s what the law says, otherwise the driving instruction business is responsible as a cost of doing business. But that seems to be what **Lars Aruns** thinks also, and his question is actually where he can find out what the law is. I don’t have an answer, but maybe this will get people back on track. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2008, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fined-while-taking-driving-lesson-who-pays-uk/456127/7 "2008-07-11T17:38:33Z")
She is indeed responsible. [Cite:](http://www.trafficaccidentadvice.co.uk/road-traffic-accidents-and-learner-drivers.html) (bolding mine) > [@](#): > > However in the case that you are caught speeding then **the points and fine** will be applicable to you, the learner ---
**Author:** ![kellner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/c2a13f/32.png) [@kellner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kellner)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2008, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fined-while-taking-driving-lesson-who-pays-uk/456127/8 "2008-07-11T18:08:48Z")
[QUOTE=Full Metal Lotus] Of course the fine is hers’ and hers’ alone. [/QUOTE] In the UK it is, apparently. However that’s hardly obvious. For example here the instructor would fully responsible. ---
**Author:** ![Madd\_Maxx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Madd\_Maxx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Madd_Maxx)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2008, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fined-while-taking-driving-lesson-who-pays-uk/456127/9 "2008-07-11T19:28:37Z")
I have always wondered what would happen in a situation such as this. I tend to think the student should be responsible, if for no other reason than being a student driver is not a good excuse to break the law. You can always tell your wife that the real proof of being an actual driver is your first ticket, not so much your receipt of the actual license, as there are plenty of people who are licensed who can’t (or don’t) drive at all. ---
**Author:** ![BellRungBookShut-CandleSnuffed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bcef8e/32.png) [@BellRungBookShut-CandleSnuffed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BellRungBookShut-CandleSnuffed)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2008, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fined-while-taking-driving-lesson-who-pays-uk/456127/10 "2008-07-12T02:21:47Z")
Hm, it seems like it should be the learner’s fault, because it’s not that hard to keep your eye on your speed, but then again, it doesn’t seem that difficult to do anything driving after you’ve had practice. Are learners in the UK responsible for all infractions? What if the instructor takes her on the highway and she crashes while attempting a lane change, or something else she’s not prepared to do? Wouldn’t it be the fault of the instructor for putting her in a situation she’s not yet prepared to handle? Is she responsible for paying for all of the damage? If I recall correctly, when I was learning, I had a hell of a time trying to keep my speed constant, because I was trying to pay attention to way too many things at the same time. I can conceive of a situation where I slipped above the speed limit, and you’d better believe I’d be pissed off if I were responsible for something like a ticket when it was a hell of an accomplishment for me to merge onto the highway without killing myself. ---
**Author:** ![WotNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e19b73/32.png) [@WotNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WotNot)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2008, 8:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fined-while-taking-driving-lesson-who-pays-uk/456127/11 "2008-07-12T08:45:31Z")
[QUOTE=BellRungBookShut-CandleSnuffed] If I recall correctly, when I was learning, I had a hell of a time trying to keep my speed constant, because I was trying to pay attention to way too many things at the same time. I can conceive of a situation where I slipped above the speed limit, and you’d better believe I’d be pissed off if I were responsible for something like a ticket when it was a hell of an accomplishment for me to merge onto the highway without killing myself. [/QUOTE] Oh yeah. It’s not that long since I learned to drive myself, and there’s certainly a period where you’re having to be consciously aware of so many things (things that become second-nature with practice) that it’s very easy indeed to miss a sign indicating a change in speed limit. I know my instructor had to warn me on a few occasions that I was speeding. It seems that Mrs Aruns is, legally, liable for the fine; and I dare say that’s fair. Even in a car with dual controls, I can see it might be dangerous taking control from the driver when travelling at speed – especially an inexperienced driver. Of course, the instructor ought to be aware of her speed, and warn her when she’s over the limit. If Mrs Aruns feels he could have done this before she got clocked, she may not be able to get him stump up for the fine, but she can certainly find another instructor. Just out of _ahem_ academic interest – just where was this camera? ---
**Author:** ![Lars\_Aruns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c68b51/32.png) [@Lars\_Aruns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lars_Aruns)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2008, 8:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fined-while-taking-driving-lesson-who-pays-uk/456127/12 "2008-07-12T08:58:52Z")
[QUOTE=WotNot] Just out of _ahem_ academic interest – just where was this camera? [/QUOTE] Somwhere in Longbenton, the wife says. Poor dear, I showed her this thread and the page linked by **Quartz** , and now she’s all upset at herself, because if she gets another ticket it’s over, according to that link. She is saying “Oh, no, I have to drive like an old lady!” and then mimes an imaginary lady driving an old beater and goes “putt putt putt”, and it’s very cute 🙂 . “Cheer up” I told her like **Madd Maxx** suggested, “your first fine is the proof you are a real driver”. She didn’t cheer up. “How many fines did you get anyway?” she asked. “Err, none”. “You might have just jinxed yourself”. I’'d better start driving like an old lady myself. Putt putt putt! ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2008, 9:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fined-while-taking-driving-lesson-who-pays-uk/456127/13 "2008-07-12T09:32:31Z")
[QUOTE=BellRungBookShut-CandleSnuffed] What if the instructor takes her on the highway and she crashes while attempting a lane change, or something else she’s not prepared to do? Wouldn’t it be the fault of the instructor for putting her in a situation she’s not yet prepared to handle? Is she responsible for paying for all of the damage? [/QUOTE] The last bit is the easiest to answer - she’s legally obliged to have third party insurance, and instructors would be nuts not to be fully covered for such situations. If she’d caused a crash, a prosecution would have to be for careless or dangerous driving, not for accidental driver error, and being an inexperienced learner would be a pretty good defence argument for the latter. No, I don’t see why the instructor should be held responsible, any more than somebody should be able to say “the kids were in the back shouting ‘go faster, mum’”. She’s the one holding the wheel. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2008, 9:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fined-while-taking-driving-lesson-who-pays-uk/456127/14 "2008-07-12T09:34:13Z")
[QUOTE=Lars Aruns] “Cheer up” I told her like **Madd Maxx** suggested, “your first fine is the proof you are a real driver”. She didn’t cheer up. “How many fines did you get anyway?” she asked. “Err, none”. “You might have just jinxed yourself”. [/QUOTE] Ha ha! I dodged yet another bullet this week, flying into a village at slightly more than 30 ;), to see the police busy dealing with a previous speeding driver they’d pulled over. Ten years of disobeying speed limits and I’ve not been caught yet… ---
**Author:** ![Busy\_Scissors](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/d78d45/32.png) [@Busy\_Scissors](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Busy_Scissors)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2008, 10:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fined-while-taking-driving-lesson-who-pays-uk/456127/15 "2008-07-12T10:37:12Z")
The fine needs to be paid by Mrs A, as noted. The instructor probably needs to be binned - definitely if they were driving a dual-control car. IME, instructors know the routes they drive with learners like the back of their hand, as they should. So it would be highly unlikely that the speed camera took the instructor unawares. To fail to check your wife’s speed going through with the second brake is baffling - why would they not do so? If it was just a normal car then I guess it’s just one of those things, the instructor can only say ‘slow down’. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2008, 11:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fined-while-taking-driving-lesson-who-pays-uk/456127/16 "2008-07-12T11:15:58Z")
[QUOTE=Busy Scissors] IME, instructors know the routes they drive with learners like the back of their hand, as they should. So it would be highly unlikely that the speed camera took the instructor unawares. [/QUOTE] See the OP - it was a mobile camera. ---
**Author:** ![WotNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e19b73/32.png) [@WotNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WotNot)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2008, 12:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fined-while-taking-driving-lesson-who-pays-uk/456127/17 "2008-07-12T12:27:08Z")
[QUOTE=GorillaMan] The last bit is the easiest to answer - she’s legally obliged to have third party insurance, and instructors would be nuts not to be fully covered for such situations. [/QUOTE] The instructor, yes – but since when has a learner needed insurance to drive a driving school car? I know I never had any. 😕 [QUOTE=Busy Scissors] IME, instructors know the routes they drive with learners like the back of their hand, as they should. So it would be highly unlikely that the speed camera took the instructor unawares. To fail to check your wife’s speed going through with the second brake is baffling - why would they not do so? [/QUOTE] GorillaMan’s right that it was a mobile camera – on the other hand, though, our friends in blue seem to favour stationing them in the same spots time after time, so I’d be surprised if the instructor didn’t at least know there was a _possiblity_ it would be there. Longbenton’s where the Driving Test Centre is, so most instructors in the area are probably around those streets several times a day, familiarising their students with the routes they’re most likely to be tested on. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2008, 12:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fined-while-taking-driving-lesson-who-pays-uk/456127/18 "2008-07-12T12:44:56Z")
[QUOTE=WotNot] The instructor, yes – but since when has a learner needed insurance to drive a driving school car? I know I never had any. 😕 [/quote] OK, yes, I hardly phrased that well. She’s legally obliged to be covered by third party insurance, so she would not be “responsible for paying for all of the damage”. > [@](#): > > our friends in blue seem to favour stationing them in the same spots time after time, so I’d be surprised if the instructor didn’t at least know there was a _possiblity_ it would be there. True. Note that the mobile cameras are generally operated by safety camera partnerships rather than the police, and the pre-selected locations and routes have to be justified through casualty numbers, or through the rather wooly ‘local concern about speeding’. ---
**Author:** ![ZenBeam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/3ab097/32.png) [@ZenBeam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZenBeam)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2008, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fined-while-taking-driving-lesson-who-pays-uk/456127/19 "2008-07-12T15:32:13Z")
> [@](#): > > Poor dear, I showed her this thread and the page linked by Quartz, and now she’s all upset at herself, because if she gets another ticket it’s over, according to that link. She is saying “Oh, no, I have to drive like an old lady!” and then mimes an imaginary lady driving an old beater and goes “putt putt putt”, and it’s very cute 🙂 . When I got a ticket many years ago, it was handled through the mail, and one of the options was “guilty, with an explanation”. If she got the ticket, a good approach here would be to write the explanation that she was learning, and in a car with an instructor, and is concerned about her points and can they reduce it to a lesser offense, and she’ll drive carefully, and yadda yadda yadda, and hope for the best. But she didn’t get the ticket, the instructor did, right? How else is he involved at all? ---
**Author:** ![WotNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e19b73/32.png) [@WotNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WotNot)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2008, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fined-while-taking-driving-lesson-who-pays-uk/456127/20 "2008-07-12T16:15:47Z")
[QUOTE=ZenBeam] When I got a ticket many years ago, it was handled through the mail, and one of the options was “guilty, with an explanation”. If she got the ticket, a good approach here would be to write the explanation that she was learning, and in a car with an instructor, and is concerned about her points and can they reduce it to a lesser offense, and she’ll drive carefully, and yadda yadda yadda, and hope for the best. But she didn’t get the ticket, the instructor did, right? How else is he involved at all? [/QUOTE] Presumably the instructor got the ticket because the car’s registered in his name, or that of the driving school. I’d imagine that if it’s one of the larger schools, like BSM, they have a standard policy for dealing with occasions like this – it must happen fairly often. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fined-while-taking-driving-lesson-who-pays-uk/456127.md?page=2)