# Fines based on offender's income? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 23, 2005, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fines-based-on-offenders-income/300813 "2005-04-23T23:11:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2005, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fines-based-on-offenders-income/300813/21 "2005-04-24T15:12:42Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > So how 'bout X% of net worth? And you’d end up with a little old lady, who bought a house 40 years ago for $10K having to sell off her $500K house in the now trendy district, to pay a parking fine. > [@](#): > > Wasn’t there an email a while back that showed Gate’s income by the minute, and pointed out that it’s more costly for him to take the time to bend over and pick up a dropped $100 bill than to just leave it on the ground and go on with his day? A $100 parking ticket means less than losing his napkin at a picnic. Yes, but you still end up with $100. If Bill wants to park in front of the meter that costs $10 a day and get a $100 ticket every day, then why make it more complicated than it is? The government is making $90 by him doing so. Why would you want him to stop it? If he gets a speeding ticket every mile for $100 then why also complain? What is the cost to him in time spent waiting for the ticket to be written? Why not take it a step further then: Say the parking meter now costs $10 for the day. If Bill pulls up in his limo he should pay a % of his income. Because $10 for some really is a burden and we want everyone to pay his fair share. For Bill to park his car costs $100K/hour. Go to the local store to buy a quart of milk, $20K. Everyone has to carry around a card with his networth/income on it and it deducts as needed to keep everything fair. Sounds more like another form of communism than anything else. ---
**Author:** ![MaddyStrut](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/dbc845/32.png) [@MaddyStrut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaddyStrut)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2005, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fines-based-on-offenders-income/300813/22 "2005-04-24T15:17:21Z")
I really don’t see how it would be practical for small offenses. Poor and rich alike would have to send tax returns and personal balance statements along with payment for a ticket and someone has to review, evaluate, and record all that. That’s a lot of beaurocracy and hassle. Then you have to set up the fine schedule. What do you give the guy with a huge income but a lot of debts? Sure, he doesn’t much net worth (due to his debts), but should he pay the same fine as the guy with little income but no debt? Many people would say no, but I can imagine some legislator proposing fine adjustments for mortgage debt, child care costs, etc. You’d end up with a really complicated structure just to determine fine amounts. It may be worth the added complication for major offenses, but would it for parking tickets and minor moving violations? It’s not just the person committing the violation who has to deal with the added hassle, someone has to look at all their documentation and determine that the fine is correct. Of course, it may spawn a whole new industry of Turbotax-for-Traffic-Tickets products. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2005, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fines-based-on-offenders-income/300813/23 "2005-04-24T15:20:50Z")
I don’t follow the logic of people saying “it wouldn’t be possible (or practical) to implement such as idea” - the story in the OP proves that it _is_ possible and practical. ---
**Author:** ![MaddyStrut](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/dbc845/32.png) [@MaddyStrut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaddyStrut)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2005, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fines-based-on-offenders-income/300813/24 "2005-04-24T16:07:13Z")
**Gorillaman** , I read the link in the OP and saw a bunch of stuff about appeals based on how stock options should be included in income calculations and other complicated stuff like that. My first thought was “sheesh, all that for a traffic ticket.” Are all those complications something we can roll out to everyone? Is it worth it to tie up the courts like that? I guess it could be worth it if 1. The added fine revenue covers the increase in costs the state would incur (hiring people to calculate fines and verify income or net worth, courts to prosecute and fight appeals, etc.). 2. Driving 47 in a 31 mph zone is enough of a problem that it’s worth the added costs if it deters that behavior. If either is true (and I have no idea if they are or aren’t), I could support scaled fines. However, if scaled fines are just to make things more fair, I don’t think it’s worth it. I don’t want to pay more in taxes or see state budgets for other areas cut just so Bill Gates’ traffic ticket hits his wallet as hard as one would hit mine. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2005, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fines-based-on-offenders-income/300813/25 "2005-04-24T16:44:37Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > So how 'bout X% of net worth? And what about the kid who doesn’t have much money him/herself, but whose parents have plenty (and who might or might not hand over the money for the fine? ---
**Author:** ![brickbacon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2005, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fines-based-on-offenders-income/300813/26 "2005-04-24T16:56:06Z")
> [@GorillaMan](#): > > What about all the other crimes where there’s a big punishment at stake? I repeat, corruption is about the culture they’re working in, not the money available. And in any case, how would they know at the time that they were dealing with such a large fine? All they know is that they’ve caught somebody speeding. The fine gets calculated much later on. > ‘Make available’? Don’t they already file tax returns, pay income tax, etc? So that information shouldn’t be hard to provide to the courts or whoever sets the fine. A big punishment is different from a large fine. The person knows how much they will be fined, and would have a great interest in not getting a ticket. Average cops are not surrounded by such great temptations on a regular basis. What do you base your statement on? I’ve seen corruption happen in various environments due to the circumstances being low risk/high reward. I don’t believe the judiciary has income tax statements readily available. That sounds like an easy thing to do, but it would require a lot of work. > [@doreen](#): > > You know, I keep hearing about these quotas for traffic and parking tickets. What I never hear is what the quota is and why it’s impossible for a cop to reach it while only writing legitimate tickets. Nobody is saying it’s impossible only write legit tickets, just that they point behind writing tickets isn’t to adjust society’s collective behavior. It’s to raise money. If it were to punish people, cops wouldn’t give warnings, adjust infraction penalties, or let people go who have PBA cards (or similar things). All those things don’t convince people to adjust their behavior in an effective way. > [@Harborwolf](#): > > Do you have a cite on this other than “It is fairly well known…?” I know I’ve read it, but I can’t remember ever seeing this as a fact. It’s always seemed more like a cranky assumption. [Here](http://www.nydailynews.com/front/story/87174p-79426c.html) is a cite. Allow me to summarize. > [@](#): > > But with the city [NYC] hurting for money, ordinary citizens suddenly are finding themselves shelling out hard-earned cash to pay fines for things they didn’t even know were against the law. > > The Patrolmen’s Benevolent Association charges the city has a ticket quota and that there’s more pressure than ever on cops to write summonses. The city denies the charges. > > But anecdotal evidence is mounting - including the Daily News’ report last week about a Bronx man who got a summons for sitting on a milk crate. > > **"They call it productivity goals, we call it quotas, and it’s a very stressful situation,"** said Drew Bailey, a Brooklyn union official with the Patrolmen’s Benevolent Association. If you want more cites, I will find some. Basically, it is an unspoken thing that cops know. I have known several cops who, back in their street cop days, knew how many tickets they should be giving in a given month. Hell, the amount to be collected by fines are usually written in to the budget for the year, and they rarely fail to meet their budget numbers in my experience. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2005, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fines-based-on-offenders-income/300813/27 "2005-04-24T17:42:48Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > Average cops are not surrounded by such great temptations on a regular basis. What do you base your statement on? I’ve seen corruption happen in various environments due to the circumstances being low risk/high reward. What do you base _your_ statements on? Come on, the police deal with far more serious situations than speeding, every day. Yet they don’t all succumb to the temptation to take bribes. > [@](#): > > Nobody is saying it’s impossible only write legit tickets, just that they point behind writing tickets isn’t to adjust society’s collective behavior. A hefty statement, which you need to back up with more evidence than: > [@](#): > > It’s to raise money. If it were to punish people, cops wouldn’t give warnings, adjust infraction penalties, or let people go who have PBA cards (or similar things). All those things don’t convince people to adjust their behavior in an effective way. Everything you describe is America-centric. Getting off with a ‘warning’ isn’t an option in many jurisdictions. And many, including the UK, issue the vast majority of speeding fines from cameras, not from police patrols. ---
**Author:** ![ParentalAdvisory](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/53a042/32.png) [@ParentalAdvisory](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ParentalAdvisory)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2005, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fines-based-on-offenders-income/300813/28 "2005-04-24T17:46:24Z")
So if you’re a poor person in Finland, would the same logic state that if you’re tapped out, Finland would _owe_ you? ---
**Author:** ![MLS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/919ad9/32.png) [@MLS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MLS)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2005, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fines-based-on-offenders-income/300813/29 "2005-04-24T17:48:35Z")
> [@even sven](#): > > It makes some degree of sense. When you have fines that are crushing for some people, and nothing at all for others, you essentially give a certain segment of society the right to ignore the law. We see this all the time in San Francisco, where a lot of people simply park on the sidewalk when they can’t find a space. They gladly eat the fines in exchange for great parking spaces, and the city has come to rely on those fines as part of their income. Meanwhile, the citizens who are trying to walk down those sidewalks are forced out in to the streets- and there are a staggering amount of pedestrian deaths each year. On this specific issue, why aren’t the cars of the violators towed? The cost and inconvenience of retrieving a car from the impound yard should be enough deterrent for anyone. ---
**Author:** ![Frankenstein\_Monster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ccd318/32.png) [@Frankenstein\_Monster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frankenstein_Monster)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2005, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fines-based-on-offenders-income/300813/30 "2005-04-24T18:11:20Z")
In case anybody is interested, the formula for the fines in Finland is explained here: [http://www.oikeus.fi/16071.htm](http://www.oikeus.fi/16071.htm) And it is true that police officers nowadays have access to tax records right from their mobile terminals. So they can calculate the actual amount of the fine on the spot. BTW the guy in the OP got away in the end, because his income had dropped in the year he got the fine. But other people are not so lucky. [http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/3477285.stm](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/3477285.stm) ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2005, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fines-based-on-offenders-income/300813/31 "2005-04-24T18:26:04Z")
> [@ParentalAdvisory](#): > > So if you’re a poor person in Finland, would the same logic state that if you’re tapped out, Finland would _owe_ you? I don’t know - but Australia ended up owing a tax rebate on a failed drug deal: [BBC NEWS | Asia-Pacific | Australian drug dealer gets tax back](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/low/asia-pacific/2968938.stm) ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2005, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fines-based-on-offenders-income/300813/32 "2005-04-24T19:01:23Z")
There are some great pictures of the sidwalk parking phenomena [here](http://www.walksf.org/sidewalkParking/detailedDocument.htm). I promise you this is not a rare sight at all. As you can see, towing is impractical, and probably wouldn’t get the income that the city has come to rely on from these violations. The parking situation is such that people are actually [argueing](http://sfindependent.com/article/index.cfm/i/051904n_cityhallwatch) that two-wheel sidewalk parking is a legit way to park. However, San Francisco has a [staggering](http://www.walksf.org/sanFranciscoStats.htm) rate of pedestrian deaths, and there needs to be some way to keep pedestrians (who, we may note, are alliviating the parking problem by walking) safe. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2005, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fines-based-on-offenders-income/300813/33 "2005-04-24T20:11:34Z")
> [@MLS](#): > > On this specific issue, why aren’t the cars of the violators towed? The cost and inconvenience of retrieving a car from the impound yard should be enough deterrent for anyone. This occured to me too, and particularly having seen **even sven** ’s photo. I know people who’ve had their cars towed away in London, for only two wheels on the pavement. ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2005, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fines-based-on-offenders-income/300813/34 "2005-04-25T00:50:00Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > Nobody is saying it’s impossible only write legit tickets, just that they point behind writing tickets isn’t to adjust society’s collective behavior. It’s to raise money. If it were to punish people, cops wouldn’t give warnings, adjust infraction penalties, or let people go who have PBA cards (or similar things). All those things don’t convince people to adjust their behavior in an effective way. Speak for yourself. If I’m lucky enough to get only a warning or a ticket for going 10 mph over instead of the twenty I really was doing, I’ll still change my ways. Of course, I don’t have to, because the mere possibility of getting a ticket keeps me from double parking, speeding etc. Which is what the fines are really meant to do more than punish the offenders- they are supposed to deter everyone. And BTW, if the point is really just to collect money, then it makes no sense whatsoever for the cop to do anything other that write the most expensive ticket possible. ---
**Author:** ![Harborwolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Harborwolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harborwolf)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2005, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fines-based-on-offenders-income/300813/35 "2005-04-25T01:39:34Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > If you want more cites, I will find some. > > Basically, it is an unspoken thing that cops know. I have known several cops who, back in their street cop days, knew how many tickets they should be giving in a given month. Hell, the amount to be collected by fines are usually written in to the budget for the year, and they rarely fail to meet their budget numbers in my experience. If you could find more, I would appreciate it. Even your initial cite says the evidence is anecdotal and it only covers NYPD. ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2005, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fines-based-on-offenders-income/300813/36 "2005-04-25T03:31:11Z")
I think the first thing to decide is if fines are there to prevent people from doing the actions they are being ticketed for, or as a cash grab by the jurisdiction setting the rules. If it is a cash grab then that is why we have income taxes. The rich already pay more than those who are poorer. If you give governments the right to use a % of a person’s income as a penalty governments will start saying everything is worthy of getting a fine for. If it is to prevent the action then you’d have to prove a couple of things: 1. The current fine structure is an actual detterent to those in the lower income brackets. My point being is that some people will break laws regardless of how much they earn and the level of the fine is irrelevant to their actions. 2. That the rich right now are breaking the law more than than the poor. If they are not then why bother changing anything? 3. That the law itself is going to accomplish something useful. Is the action it is trying to prevent actually required. ---
**Author:** ![marky33](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@marky33](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marky33)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2005, 10:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fines-based-on-offenders-income/300813/37 "2005-04-25T10:00:38Z")
> [@Uzi](#): > > I think the first thing to decide is if fines are there to prevent people from doing the actions they are being ticketed for, or as a cash grab by the jurisdiction setting the rules. I’m with **doreen** on this one: if the primary purpose of fines were to collect funds, there would not be much of the lenient police behaviour mentioned in this thread. Fine revenue appears to be a welcome side benefit of prevention measures in most cases. Of course, there may well be localised, short-term cash-flow problems that necessitate a temporary change in individual police force priorities. ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2005, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fines-based-on-offenders-income/300813/38 "2005-04-25T13:05:37Z")
If I was rich and knew that I could get a $100,000 fine for speeding, I would simply hire a driver and make sure that I never went behind the wheel myself. This practice is outragious. It would never happen in the US. $100,000 is enough money to hire several employees. By taking that money, the state has hurt the economy. Just because someone is rich doesn’t make their $100K less valuable than anybody elses. Paying that kind of money for a speeding ticket is completely rediculous. In the US, one only needs to get three tickets a year and they face license suspension, so it’s not as if rich people can simply ignore the law and drive like maniacs. It’s bad enough that the government uses speeding tickets and fines as a means of revenue generation rather than taxing more honestly. Specifically targetting the rich for higher fines would be wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2005, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fines-based-on-offenders-income/300813/39 "2005-04-25T13:52:23Z")
> [@MGibson](#): > > I wonder if police officers would be more likely to go after the big fish rather then the little fish. Some guy in a Saturn going 15 above the speed limit, who cares? Let’s wait for that guy in the Hummer going 10 above the limit and bust him. > > I wonder if it would be Constitutional. You would essentially be giving different sentences for the same violation. I don’t care how rich you are you shouldn’t be fined $10,000 for jaywalking. > > Marc Yes, but if the fine is intended to be PUNITIVE, then it must cost enough to be a pain in the ass for the finee. Somebody making minimum wage would be looking at a week without food or loss of their home on a $200 fine, while for most middle class folks it would be a milde annoyance, and for a rich people, pocket change. Seems to me if you don’t take the effect of the fine into account, you really aren’t achieving its goal. ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2005, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fines-based-on-offenders-income/300813/40 "2005-04-25T14:20:01Z")
> [@Evil Captor](#): > > Yes, but if the fine is intended to be PUNITIVE, then it must cost enough to be a pain in the ass for the finee. …Seems to me if you don’t take the effect of the fine into account, you really aren’t achieving its goal. I’d like to see the study that says rich people are currently driving the roads like maniacs and need higher fines than poorer people to stop them from doing so. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fines-based-on-offenders-income/300813.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fines-based-on-offenders-income/300813.md?page=3)