# Fingerprinting at the orthodontist - WTF??? **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [June 2, 2009, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fingerprinting-at-the-orthodontist-wtf/498512 "2009-06-02T22:07:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2009, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fingerprinting-at-the-orthodontist-wtf/498512/21 "2009-06-03T03:47:19Z")
If you believe they will stay with the doc fine. But all information is packaged and sold. Your prints will get to many data bases for someones profit.I am not comfortable giving out any more than I have to. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2009, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fingerprinting-at-the-orthodontist-wtf/498512/22 "2009-06-03T04:42:46Z")
> [@Projammer](#): > > There is a growing problem known as [medical identity theft](http://www.worldprivacyforum.org/medicalidentitytheft.html) and I expect this might be part of the fight against it. > > I need a couple of crowns and have no insurance and no way to pay for it myself. I can afford a coupla hundred for the info to present myself as **Stranger On A Train** and get the work done. > > Having the fingerprint in the system can allow it to either know immediately that I’m not **SoaT** , have one more piece of data to find me when the fraud is discovered, and gives **SoaT** a big piece of proof that he’s not the one who authorized the procedure. Dude, my dentist is known as The Butcher of Budapest. Og help you if you fall into his hands. I think many of his orthodontic techniques are prohibited by the United Nations Convention Against Torture, and are recommended by the Dick Cheney Advisory Council on Interrogation and Oral Hygiene. > [@gonzomax](#): > > If you believe they will stay with the doc fine. But all information is packaged and sold. Your prints will get to many data bases for someones profit.I am not comfortable giving out any more than I have to. You must lack reading comprehension. Biometric systems are useful only as comparative systems, i.e. an initial scan creates a matrix of unique features on the print, and subsequent scans look for those features. It isn’t like a photograph of your fingerprint. In any case, within a couple of decades–perhaps less, given the pace of the technology–identification by fingerprint or retinal scan will be largely obsoleted by near real-time STR identification of unique genetic markers. The notion of a “right to privacy” is a very modern conception, and one that doesn’t hold up well with regard to modern commerce. The notion that you have control over disclosure of your identity is not strongly supported by law or technology. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![missred](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/missred/32/14096_2.png) [@missred](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/missred)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2009, 8:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fingerprinting-at-the-orthodontist-wtf/498512/23 "2009-06-03T08:38:07Z")
We use biometric fingerprinting where I work for security clearances and as a timecard. As \*\*drachillix \*\* says, it’s all in the bar code. Your orthodontist or dentist has your DNA anyway, or has the potential to put it on record. Fingerprinting is just another form of unique ID. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2009, 10:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fingerprinting-at-the-orthodontist-wtf/498512/24 "2009-06-03T10:18:01Z")
> [@drachillix](#): > > Dude, biometrics like this are little different from fancy barcode readers, its a few points of reference linked to your account number in the database. They are worthless for identifying you as a criminal, they can’t print out a copy of your fingerprint. They dont store your whole fingerprint or anything resembling a fingerprint as you are concerned with. If you already _had_ a copy of your fingerprint, couldn’t you just feed it through the same analysis to find the same points of reference? Just generate the “barcode” from each sample (one from the criminal database and one from your reader) and see if they match? ---
**Author:** ![Ferret\_Herder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e47774/32.png) [@Ferret\_Herder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ferret_Herder)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2009, 10:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fingerprinting-at-the-orthodontist-wtf/498512/25 "2009-06-03T10:20:09Z")
> [@drachillix](#): > > Also it can eliminate a not insignificant number of the “which of the 17 michelle joneses is this” type problems. Just like many banks have you swipe your ATM card at the counter to save some keystrokes and log you in with your pin code. We use the high-tech method of cross-checking their name with their birthdate. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2009, 10:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fingerprinting-at-the-orthodontist-wtf/498512/26 "2009-06-03T10:43:22Z")
> [@kittenblue](#): > > My concern is more along the lines of, why does a mere local orthodontist feel the need for this level and expense of technology? The gym my mother goes to has it. The office where my brother works has it (oh wait, both places have the same owners). I suspect they wouldn’t have put it in if it was that expensive and, unlike membership cards, it can’t be in your other trousers (… oh wait… eeeew!) ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2009, 11:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fingerprinting-at-the-orthodontist-wtf/498512/27 "2009-06-03T11:21:07Z")
> [@Siam\_Sam](#): > > I’m a bit old-fashioned myself and prefer the old ways, like Xeroxing your butt. Given the scanner available for fingerprinting, that would be difficult. But to be cooperative, I would be willing to be dickprinted. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2009, 11:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fingerprinting-at-the-orthodontist-wtf/498512/28 "2009-06-03T11:29:16Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > The gym my mother goes to has it. My laptop has it. I think it’s a $25 option these days. ---
**Author:** ![Walkabout](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/46a35a/32.png) [@Walkabout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walkabout)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2009, 11:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fingerprinting-at-the-orthodontist-wtf/498512/29 "2009-06-03T11:40:46Z")
What on earth would someone do with your fingerprints, even if they did have a record of them? Graft them onto a criminal’s hands so you can take the fall? I have had my fingerprints taken twice, once for a background check when I was involved with youth hockey, and again for security clearance at work, so I know that the FBI has a record of me somewhere. Does it worry me? Since I’m not planning a life of crime, no, it doesn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Wallenstein](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b5a626/32.png) [@Wallenstein](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wallenstein)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2009, 12:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fingerprinting-at-the-orthodontist-wtf/498512/30 "2009-06-03T12:13:56Z")
> [@Walkabout](#): > > What on earth would someone do with your fingerprints, even if they did have a record of them? Graft them onto a criminal’s hands so you can take the fall? Sort of. There are plenty of guides online showing how to take someone fingerprints and use latex to fit them over your own (like little gloves). In the UK there’s a [protest group](http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/11/06/smith_dabs_grab/) who are attempting to get a copy of the Home Secretary’s fingerprints and make them available online. The idea is that activists will use these prints, meaning any incidents of civil disobediance will have the Home Sec’s fingerprints all over them. So yes, I could take your prints, pop them onto my finger using latex, shove said finger up Obama’s butt, and when they dust him for prints you’d be in the frame. There are several schools where I grew up who now use finger print ID to register students into lessons. Avoids problems where students swipe the card of an AWOL buddy. It helps with accurate class credits, but mostly means in case of fire they know exactly who is in the building. ---
**Author:** ![Dandibear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Dandibear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dandibear)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2009, 12:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fingerprinting-at-the-orthodontist-wtf/498512/31 "2009-06-03T12:23:56Z")
On Mythbusters they fooled an apparently very high tech fingerprint scanner with a photocopy of a fingerprint. Not so secure, if that’s what they’re after. I don’t object to biometrics when the situation warrants - like when working with children or for a high-security job. But for the orthodontist? No, thank you, just hand me the clipboard. Just because I can’t think of a way for someone to misuse it doesn’t mean someone else won’t, now or down the road someday. ---
**Author:** ![lieu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c2a13f/32.png) [@lieu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lieu)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2009, 12:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fingerprinting-at-the-orthodontist-wtf/498512/32 "2009-06-03T12:50:46Z")
The main problem I see with it working for kids is that the booger on their fingertip will likely change from visit to visit. They’ll need to make allowances for that. For me, is it easier and faster than typing recognition data with the keyboard and monitor? If yes then fine, let’s go with it. ---
**Author:** ![Mama\_Zappa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/71e660/32.png) [@Mama\_Zappa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mama_Zappa)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2009, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fingerprinting-at-the-orthodontist-wtf/498512/33 "2009-06-03T12:52:37Z")
> [@Q.E.D](#): > > It would do you people well to understand how the technology actually works instead of worry about some imaginary Big Brother conspiracy. Fingerprint authentication systems like this DO NOT store your fingerprints. NO ONE can steal the data and get hold of your fingerprints because they do not exist in the system. What is stored is a digital hash representing them. When you place your finger on the reader, a new hash is created and sent to the server which compares the new hash with the old hash. The system knows it’s you if they match. That’s it. This makes sense, thanks for the explanation. I still think it’s an unnecessary extra step though. Medical identity theft isn’t terribly likely to be an issue in this sort of case, as orthodontia doesn’t happen until after someone has come in and signed a whole lot of paperwork and plunked down some fairly substantial cash in advance. The chances of someone wandering in and stealing orthodontic services would seem to be fairly remote. 😕 ---
**Author:** ![Mama\_Zappa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/71e660/32.png) [@Mama\_Zappa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mama_Zappa)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2009, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fingerprinting-at-the-orthodontist-wtf/498512/34 "2009-06-03T12:58:26Z")
> [@Claire\_Beauchamp](#): > > It may also have to do with preventing mix-ups. Biometric sign-ins are one way to make sure you are who you say you are, and that there’s not some clerical error in pulling up the correct record. > > Instead of ranting on an anonymous BBS, why not call the ortho’s office and ASK? But, but, but… that would make SENSE! Where’s the fun in that? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![China\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@China\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/China_Guy)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2009, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fingerprinting-at-the-orthodontist-wtf/498512/35 "2009-06-03T13:04:43Z")
I use a biometric reader on my lap top to login. It’s easier and faster than typing in my password. I think it’s kinda cool too. ---
**Author:** ![Skara\_Brae](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f0a364/32.png) [@Skara\_Brae](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skara_Brae)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2009, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fingerprinting-at-the-orthodontist-wtf/498512/36 "2009-06-03T14:59:44Z")
> [@China\_Guy](#): > > I use a biometric reader on my lap top to login. It’s easier and faster than typing in my password. I think it’s kinda cool too. I have one of these as well. A scanner is now built in to most laptops, I think. My gym also has a fingerprint scanner, which I use ( and type in a code) to get in. I expect it will be used in more places pretty soon. ---
**Author:** ![Mama\_Zappa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/71e660/32.png) [@Mama\_Zappa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mama_Zappa)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2009, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fingerprinting-at-the-orthodontist-wtf/498512/37 "2009-06-03T15:31:39Z")
Doing a bit of googling, I see another reason why some offices are going to a fingerprint scan: fraud reduction. [http://californianewswire.com/2008/11/03/CNW2446\_221629.php](http://californianewswire.com/2008/11/03/CNW2446_221629.php) - provides proof that a patient actually received services. Again, not an issue with an orthodontist’s office as services are paid up front and/or billed on a monthly schedule, not per visit. A downside to these becoming more prevalent: if someone _does_ get your fingerprints somehow, there’s no way to fix it. Admittedly a little harder to fake, but if someone succeeds, you can’t just get a new PIN or card. [How Fingerprint Scanners Work | HowStuffWorks](http://computer.howstuffworks.com/fingerprint-scanner5.htm) I’m less freaked out about the concept, thanks to several posters describing more about how they work… but in this particular situation, it honestly sounds like trying to use a nuclear weapon to kill a fly. Fraud: not an issue. Time to check in: 1 second versus 3. Raising parents’ hackles? You betcha. IMHO, a really unnecessary “enhancement”. Funnily enough, one kid a few minutes later went “EWWW. WHAT ABOUT SWINE FLU”. I didn’t comment, but, well, the keyboard approach is JUST AS BAD. You’re exposed to as many or more “finger cooties” that way 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Ferret\_Herder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e47774/32.png) [@Ferret\_Herder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ferret_Herder)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2009, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fingerprinting-at-the-orthodontist-wtf/498512/38 "2009-06-03T15:37:42Z")
> [@Mama\_Zappa](#): > > Funnily enough, one kid a few minutes later went “EWWW. WHAT ABOUT SWINE FLU”. I didn’t comment, but, well, the keyboard approach is JUST AS BAD. You’re exposed to as many or more “finger cooties” that way 😛 Plus a finger-scanner would be easier to clean - one alcohol swab rub-down of the pad and presto. Keyboards have all those angles and edges to try to work around. ---
**Author:** ![Crotalus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crotalus/32/41_2.png) [@Crotalus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crotalus)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2009, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fingerprinting-at-the-orthodontist-wtf/498512/39 "2009-06-03T15:41:59Z")
> [@lieu](#): > > The main problem I see with it working for kids is that the booger on their fingertip will likely change from visit to visit. They’ll need to make allowances for that. I don’t think this is an issue for kids only. ---
**Author:** ![StarvingButStrong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/starvingbutstrong/32/335_2.png) [@StarvingButStrong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StarvingButStrong)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2009, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fingerprinting-at-the-orthodontist-wtf/498512/40 "2009-06-03T18:03:27Z")
Something else that will be behind the increased frequency of this: The Federal Government has decided they need to crack down on credit fraud. Fine. They have also decided that doctors & dentists & such that treat patients and bill them afterwards are _extending credit_ to those patients. Yes, really. They are requiring said medical types to put in place a system to id that our patients are who they say they are. The doctor I work for has been in practice for over 30 years. He says he has NEVER had a patient turn out to have lied about his identity. (Plenty who never pay for other reasons, but not that.) Nevermind, the law says we must ID them. How we’re going to do this we’re not really sure. Check driver’s licenses? What, every time? Hey, Judy, nice to see you again! The baby’s looking fine. Can I see your ID to be sure you’re who I damn well know you are? Fine, thanks. Now, where’s little Katie’s picture ID? Idiocy. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fingerprinting-at-the-orthodontist-wtf/498512.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fingerprinting-at-the-orthodontist-wtf/498512.md?page=3)