# Finland and Sweden appear poised for entry to NATO {2022-05-12} **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Tags:** ukraine-invasion, breaking-news\ **Created:** [May 13, 2022, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finland-and-sweden-appear-poised-for-entry-to-nato-2022-05-12/964350 "2022-05-13T03:38:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2022, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finland-and-sweden-appear-poised-for-entry-to-nato-2022-05-12/964350/41 "2022-05-16T01:41:58Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > If they don’t go anywhere, then they’ll die on the spot. Ukraine started taking back ground like a month ago. Well, they started taking ground that the Russian Army gave up when it realized it wasn’t going to take Kyiv and redeployed to hold Donetsk and Mariupol. I know a lot of people are portraying that is Ukraine “pushing” them to the East but the intelligent strategy of war is not to try to hold positions that you cannot logistically support, and it was clearly a vast miscalculation on the part of Putin (who was apparently directing the objectives) to anticipate taking Kyiv in a blitz that would knock out opposition. The Russians are now well secured in Mariupol and along the Donbas region, and until Ukraine gets artillery in position _and_ has sufficient air superiority to prevent the Russians from taking out their guns they aren’t going to be able to dislodge them. Right now, lacking those elements, it is essentially WWI-style trench warfare in which neither side gains much ground or can maneuver into a superior position. This is why Zelenskyy is still pleading for MiGs; even with the artillery, they need to be able to keep the Russians from striking back. The other alternative is to disrupt supply lines to the Russians from behind the front and starve them out, which is why Ukraine is being so coy about all of the explosions and apparent sabotage occurring within Russia (and the Russian Foreign Minister whinging about how unfair it is for Ukraine to strike them on their own territory is frankly pretty hilarious, like the bully whom complains about getting a bloody nose from the nerd he was just terrorizing), but that still takes time to have the desired effect, especially since Putin has made it clear that anybody retreating back to Russia is going go face punishment. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2022, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finland-and-sweden-appear-poised-for-entry-to-nato-2022-05-12/964350/42 "2022-05-16T13:54:00Z")
So Sweden made it official, they are going to request membership in NATO. Excellent primer/article on NATO here: > **[Ukraine conflict: What is Nato and what weapons is it supplying?](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-18023383)** > > Nato countries are giving Ukraine air defence systems to guard against Russia's missile attacks. ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2022, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finland-and-sweden-appear-poised-for-entry-to-nato-2022-05-12/964350/43 "2022-05-16T14:06:22Z")
Non-spicy meatballs are fine; it’s surströmming that is on the international chemical weapons index: > [@](#): > > [The fermented herring has such a strong smell that it is illegal to transport in public transportation or ship by the sea! In fact, the cans of fermented herring must be transported in a separate vehicle (with a well-sealed rear door). This fermented fish Sweden is known for, is also widely banned on airplanes for causing too much interference with the pilot’s radio equipment and the fear that the can of fermented herring might explode and cause (a very smelly) damage to other passengers’ luggage. You should never open the can in public or near people you don’t know.](https://www.lifeinsweden.net/surstromming/) [lol] ---
**Author:** ![jnglmassiv](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f07891/32.png) [@jnglmassiv](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jnglmassiv)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2022, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finland-and-sweden-appear-poised-for-entry-to-nato-2022-05-12/964350/44 "2022-05-16T16:26:34Z")
> [@DPRK](#): > > … widely banned on airplanes for causing too much interference with the pilot’s radio equipment … Alright, I’m sure its stinky but I don’t think surströmming is downing any planes. It’s been long on my list of things to try and this PBS video, I think, is pretty balanced and makes it seem not so bad: > **[Surströmming: The Secrets of this Stinky Swedish Fish | We invaded the...](https://www.facebook.com/ACSReactions/videos/surstr%C3%B6mming-the-secrets-of-this-stinky-swedish-fish/815341511998124/)** > > We invaded the Swedish embassy to learn about Surströmming--fermented herring. > > It's a cultural summer fish delicacy from Sweden. Not only is the... ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2022, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finland-and-sweden-appear-poised-for-entry-to-nato-2022-05-12/964350/45 "2022-05-16T16:48:26Z")
> [@Seanette](#): > > Is that their actual requirement, or simply custom? I could see a supermajority deciding it might be time to update some procedures in light of the level of irrational aggression coming out of Russia. It’s also likely the case that Turkey would be quite happy to drop their opposition for the right price, be that in cash, goods, trade concessions, or some other consideration. They aren’t stupid. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2022, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finland-and-sweden-appear-poised-for-entry-to-nato-2022-05-12/964350/46 "2022-05-16T16:49:58Z")
> [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > The Russians are now well secured in Mariupol and along the Donbas region, and until Ukraine gets artillery in position _and_ has sufficient air superiority to prevent the Russians from taking out their guns they aren’t going to be able to dislodge them. Which is, of course, not entirely dissimilar from what was already happened in Donbas, a war that effectively never seemed about to end. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2022, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finland-and-sweden-appear-poised-for-entry-to-nato-2022-05-12/964350/47 "2022-05-16T17:28:37Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Which is, of course, not entirely dissimilar from what was already happened in Donbas, a war that effectively never seemed about to end. Yeah, at this point it is clear that the Russians are not going to take Ukraine with conventional forces, and even trying to hold the territory they now occupy is going to eventually bankrupt Russia, but if history has taught us nothing else it is to not discount the tenacity of the Russians even against interminable opposition. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![gnoitall](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bb73d2/32.png) [@gnoitall](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gnoitall)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2022, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finland-and-sweden-appear-poised-for-entry-to-nato-2022-05-12/964350/48 "2022-05-16T17:36:07Z")
> [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > but if history has taught us nothing else it is to not discount the tenacity of the Russians even against interminable opposition. In fact, it seems to be a major source of pride in Russian culture. I can’t think of a Russian war in recorded history that they won by prowess. The signature victories all seemed to come from just outlasting their opponents and a bloody-minded willingness to suffer any losses and pay any price to do it. Which bodes badly for Ukraine, it seems to me. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2022, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finland-and-sweden-appear-poised-for-entry-to-nato-2022-05-12/964350/49 "2022-05-16T17:37:37Z")
It is bad. Trust me. I eat all sorts of very stinky foods, and they all disappoint me in not being anywhere near as bad as their reputation. Surstrõmming is the one exception. It is far _worse_ than even the vivid descriptions of its olfactory effects warned me. When you see the videos of people vomiting as they try to ingest the stuff – that’s totally true. It wasn’t that bad to me, but it’s pretty much the only food I’ve ever eat that I hesitated to put in my mouth. It’s very easy for me to see how someone could retch trying to eat that. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2022, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finland-and-sweden-appear-poised-for-entry-to-nato-2022-05-12/964350/50 "2022-05-16T17:44:14Z")
> [@gnoitall](#): > > In fact, it seems to be a major source of pride in Russian culture. I can’t think of a Russian war in recorded history that they won by prowess. The signature victories all seemed to come from just outlasting their opponents and a bloody-minded willingness to suffer any losses and pay any price to do it. > > Which bodes badly for Ukraine, it seems to me. Bear in mind that for most of those wars, “Russia” also included Ukraine. The two nations are cut from the same cloth. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2022, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finland-and-sweden-appear-poised-for-entry-to-nato-2022-05-12/964350/51 "2022-05-16T18:14:54Z")
And now a fucking lunatic on Russian state TV is proposing nuking Finland and Sweden. I hope that he’s just the nutbag mentally ill equivalent of Alex Jones, and it’s basically just performance art. > **[Russian State TV Suggests Deploying Nuclear Weapons Against Finland, Sweden](https://www.newsweek.com/russian-state-tv-suggests-deploying-nuclear-weapons-against-finland-sweden-1706855?fbclid=IwAR2Df-TNVzU7rQMNYurPp3e8rg2i8CxW98wD1uHYEdSdWhbysforfpkO4CE)** > > Russia will have "no choice" but deploying nuclear weapons, a host on state TV Russia 1 said. ---
**Author:** ![velomont](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/8491ac/32.png) [@velomont](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/velomont)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2022, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finland-and-sweden-appear-poised-for-entry-to-nato-2022-05-12/964350/52 "2022-05-16T18:28:59Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > And now a fucking lunatic on Russian state TV is proposing nuking Finland and Sweden. I hope that he’s just the nutbag mentally ill equivalent of Alex Jones, and it’s basically just performance art. Recently, any time I’ve seen a CNN (or someone else) special about the making of Putin or the mind of Putin etc, there are always clips of Russian current events shows in which the personalities are as unanchored in reality as Putin. So, unfortunately, this is not surprising at this point. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2022, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finland-and-sweden-appear-poised-for-entry-to-nato-2022-05-12/964350/53 "2022-05-16T19:29:29Z")
> [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > Yeah, at this point it is clear that the Russians are not going to take Ukraine with conventional forces, and even trying to hold the territory they now occupy is going to eventually bankrupt Russia The difference between the 2014-2022 war and the war now of course being that the West is now REALLY pouring its economic might into one side of the war, a level of sheer industrial and commercial might that Russia hasn’t a snowball’s chance in hell of competing with. In all honestly, Russia’s only real chance of a truly worthwhile victory was what they attempted - the rapid war of maneuvre that could surround Kyiv in a week and cause such massive organizational shock to Ukraine’s military and government apparatus than Ukraine simply fell apart. But Russia’s entire army and command structure just wasn’t up to the task of doing this. It was never in the cards. So, in a very real sense, Russia lost this war not in 2022, but over the course of the last ten years or so. > [@gnoitall](#): > > Which bodes badly for Ukraine, it seems to me. Russia HAS lost wars, after all. > [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > And now a fucking lunatic on Russian state TV is proposing nuking Finland and Sweden. I hope that he’s just the nutbag mentally ill equivalent of Alex Jones, and it’s basically just performance art. Well, to be pedantic, he said “Deploy.” To deployt nuclear weapons means to place them in position for a given type of use. Russia already made a similar claim a month or so ago, saying they were deploying nukes in the Baltic, which was meant with yawns because everyone figured they were already doing this. ---
**Author:** ![PastTense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pasttense/32/14550_2.png) [@PastTense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastTense)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2022, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finland-and-sweden-appear-poised-for-entry-to-nato-2022-05-12/964350/54 "2022-05-16T19:49:42Z")
> **[Turkey says it will not approve Sweden and Finland joining Nato](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/may/16/russia-finland-sweden-nato-ukraine-war)** > > Turkey’s justice ministry said it objected on grounds that the two countries had failed to respond positively to extradition requests I would guess the extradition requests are for political opponents of the Turkish government. Anyone know? ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2022, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finland-and-sweden-appear-poised-for-entry-to-nato-2022-05-12/964350/55 "2022-05-16T19:51:50Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Well, to be pedantic, he said “Deploy.” To deployt nuclear weapons means to place them in position for a given type of use. What could that mean? The location of ICBMs hardly matters… are none of Russia’s big long range nukes _ready_ for use at the moment, and he’s saying they should be brought back into service? Or moving tactical nukes to the Finnish border for… um… defensive purposes? ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2022, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finland-and-sweden-appear-poised-for-entry-to-nato-2022-05-12/964350/56 "2022-05-16T19:55:53Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > In all honestly, Russia’s only real chance of a truly worthwhile victory was what they attempted - the rapid war of maneuvre that could surround Kyiv in a week and cause such massive organizational shock to Ukraine’s military and government apparatus than Ukraine simply fell apart. Agreed. And this is what puzzles me. After this was clearly not going to work, Putin (Russia) has just kept up what is quite clearly going to be a campaign that is embarrassing Russia, depleting it’s armed forces, and making NATO even stronger. They have basically made everything worse for themselves, and are continuing to dig the hole even deeper. There are only negative consequences for Russia now, and the situation for them gets worse every day. If this continues, Moldova and Georgia are going to be asking to be in NATO. ---
**Author:** ![velomont](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/8491ac/32.png) [@velomont](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/velomont)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2022, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finland-and-sweden-appear-poised-for-entry-to-nato-2022-05-12/964350/57 "2022-05-16T20:04:01Z")
This infuriates the crap out of me. I fully recognize the political and strategic importance of Turkey by virtue of their geographic location on the planet. But in doing this they could IMHO cause some real damage. If Turkey vetoes this and won’t be swayed, this will be a terrible outcome and a really big loss. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2022, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finland-and-sweden-appear-poised-for-entry-to-nato-2022-05-12/964350/58 "2022-05-16T20:06:13Z")
> [@velomont](#): > > If Turkey vetoes this and won’t be swayed, this will be a terrible outcome and a really big loss. I suppose the nations other than Turkey could start a new organization for mutual defense called NNATO. New NATO ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2022, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finland-and-sweden-appear-poised-for-entry-to-nato-2022-05-12/964350/59 "2022-05-16T20:08:05Z")
> [@gnoitall](#): > > I can’t think of a Russian war in recorded history that they won by prowess. They often outfought less-disciplined opponents in the open field a la the senescing Ottoman state and they’ve had a few outstanding maneuver generals like the brilliant [Alexander Suvorov](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Suvorov). Even when they are stubbornly plowing through, there has often been a genuine skill to what they are doing - they’re just willing to take the losses. So I think that is a little bit of an exaggeration. But one with a real element of truth, I’ll grant - Russian military doctrine has been more reliant on mass force and more heedless of casualties than most for quite a long time. ---
**Author:** ![Cardigan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cardigan/32/187_2.png) [@Cardigan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cardigan)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2022, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finland-and-sweden-appear-poised-for-entry-to-nato-2022-05-12/964350/60 "2022-05-16T20:09:48Z")
I’d expect they’ll do a 180 at some point after a few back channel negotiations. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finland-and-sweden-appear-poised-for-entry-to-nato-2022-05-12/964350.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finland-and-sweden-appear-poised-for-entry-to-nato-2022-05-12/964350.md?page=4)