# Finland cancels their UBI test program **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 19, 2018, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finland-cancels-their-ubi-test-program/812737 "2018-04-19T22:22:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 11\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![SamuelA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c77e96/32.png) [@SamuelA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SamuelA)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2018, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finland-cancels-their-ubi-test-program/812737/101 "2018-04-29T02:32:21Z")
> [@CCitizen](#): > > I agree 100%. Even though I disagree with Liberals on some important issues, I agree with Liberals on Economic issues. > > The government has a right to tax the very rich. The government should have a duty to care for people who do not provide for themselves. And I personally would like for us to differentiate between the _productive_ rich and the _idle/parasitic rich_. Bill Gates, Warren Buffet, Jeff Bezos…all those individuals, by hook or by crook, did mostly earn their fortunes. Yes, they had 1 in a billion lucky chances, and they won on many gambles, but I don’t see why we should tax them too heavily. The problem is that when they die, the way it currently works, future generations of random assholes get to start out with insurmountable advantages they didn’t earn themselves. This is inequitable. It’s not just unfair, it goes against the very ethos of America. I am totally fine with billionaires who personally had a role in making their fortunes - even if they did it with somewhat shady but still legal exploiting of the rules - spending it however they like. I don’t see why their great grandchildren should get to horde all the wealth their grandparents may have cheated to get, however. Remember that the level of ‘rich’ requires usually exploiting the rules. Hording land in key developing areas. Building a company that skims all the efforts of thousands of people into the pockets of just the owner. Tax shelters so your money grows faster. Helping out money launderers and other criminals under the table. Finding and exploiting an inherent monopoly in computer operating systems. It’s very difficult to get there totally fairly. And that’s fine. But why should these inequities persist for centuries? It’s not like you or I can do the same thing to get rich, today - most of the holes in the economic system that got abused have been patched, market niches filled, etc. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2018, 7:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finland-cancels-their-ubi-test-program/812737/102 "2018-04-29T07:34:36Z")
> [@SamuelA](#): > > Bill Gates, Warren Buffet, […] > The problem is that when they die, the way it currently works, future generations of random assholes get to start out with insurmountable advantages they didn’t earn themselves. You chose two particularly poor examples in there - both Gates and Buffet are on record as leaving the vast majority of their wealth to charity. I mean, sure, their kids aren’t going to be _dirt poor_, but they’re not getting \*all \*the money. Buffet has given his kids a couple billion - in a philanthropic trust, so they have to give it away. Otherwise, one kid got a total of $90,000 - that’s it. I believe Bezos is somewhere in the “no nanny, drive a minivan” spectrum, but don’t think that he’s leaving all his money to charity. ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2018, 11:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finland-cancels-their-ubi-test-program/812737/103 "2018-04-29T11:19:39Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Unemployment rates for Alaska are also higher than the national average, no doubt for a number of reasons. But lower workforce participation is an expected outcome of UBI as well, as seems to have happened in [the famous SIME/DIME project](https://aspe.hhs.gov/report/overview-final-report-seattle-denver-income-maintenance-experiment). > > Regards, > Shodan Interesting. Regarding labor supply, the results are rather more nuanced than your summary: “The response to tax rate variations turn out to be smaller than was formerly thought, permitting the imposition of higher — and more cost saving — marginal tax rates. The responses to guarantee variations turn out to be systematic and predictable. The responses to breakeven variations turn out to be very important because (a) the income level at which benefits cease is the critical determinant of the size of the beneficiary population, and (b) the size of the beneficiary population is the most important determinant of program costs and aggregate work reductions.” ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2018, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finland-cancels-their-ubi-test-program/812737/104 "2018-05-01T15:25:11Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > Universal automation and general intelligence are not on anyone’s radar screen right now. There are no engineering companies with a plan for building them. We don’t know how. Or even if we can. Until we do, it’s all rampant speculation. In fact IBM is currently testing in real conditions AIs for such things as finance advice, cancer treatment or legal analysis, able to handle raw data and to provide advice, like for instance diagnosis and treatment recommendations. And self-driving cars able to operate in a non controlled environment are a great example of AIs able to handle a very complex task without human input. They would have been completely unthinkable until very recently. And there are many jobs, including qualified jobs, much less complex than driving a car. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2018, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finland-cancels-their-ubi-test-program/812737/105 "2018-05-01T15:35:51Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > In fact IBM is currently testing in real conditions AIs for such things as finance advice, cancer treatment or legal analysis, able to handle raw data and to provide advice, like for instance diagnosis and treatment recommendations. > > And self-driving cars able to operate in a non controlled environment are a great example of AIs able to handle a very complex task without human input. They would have been completely unthinkable until very recently. And there are many jobs, including qualified jobs, much less complex than driving a car. None of that is anything close to a general AI. We have no idea how to make a general AI. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2018, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finland-cancels-their-ubi-test-program/812737/106 "2018-05-01T17:54:01Z")
“Let’s tax rich people because they don’t deserve the money” strikes me as being the most weirdly back-asswards way of looking at things. Taking money from someone because you don’t think they deserve it is pointless. Would the world be better off if you took the money and just burned it? Why base social policy on such a weirdly subjective thing? “Let’s tax the rich because we need the money for a purpose more useful than the rich keeping that money” makes quite a lot of sense to me, however, We already do it. The only question is how much we should. A Universal Basic Income makes quite a lot of sense to me, and I’m a conservative who looks at pretty much everything through the eyes of economics. In fact, it strikes me as being an eminently conservative thing to do. At least in Canada, a comprehensive UBI would necessarily replace any number of more targed social welfare programs, which means you’re probably allowing the free market to supply poor people with the things they need, since you’re simply giving them money to buy those things, as opposed to vouchers, credits, and services. Canadian columist andrew Coybne - a convervative, writing for a conservative publication - makes a very strong argument for UBI here: > **[Andrew Coyne: Three points on the GST, to end poverty? Guaranteed income...](https://nationalpost.com/opinion/andrew-coyne-three-points-on-the-gst-to-end-poverty-guaranteed-income-sounds-like-a-good-deal)** > > We now have a better handle on how much it would cost, based on a concrete proposal, with a fighting chance of being implemented. It’s a start ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2018, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finland-cancels-their-ubi-test-program/812737/107 "2018-05-01T18:07:01Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > None of that is anything close to a general AI. We have no idea how to make a general AI. I think the point was that we don’t need general AI to sideline humans in the vast majority of jobs. ---
**Author:** ![CCitizen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4af34b/32.png) [@CCitizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CCitizen)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2018, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finland-cancels-their-ubi-test-program/812737/108 "2018-05-02T00:16:26Z")
> [@SamuelA](#): > > And I personally would like for us to differentiate between the _productive_ rich and the _idle/parasitic rich_. > > Bill Gates, Warren Buffet, Jeff Bezos…all those individuals, by hook or by crook, did mostly earn their fortunes. Yes, they had 1 in a billion lucky chances, and they won on many gambles, but I don’t see why we should tax them too heavily. > > The problem is that when they die, the way it currently works, future generations of random assholes get to start out with insurmountable advantages they didn’t earn themselves. > > This is inequitable. It’s not just unfair, it goes against the very ethos of America. I am totally fine with billionaires who personally had a role in making their fortunes - even if they did it with somewhat shady but still legal exploiting of the rules - spending it however they like. I don’t see why their great grandchildren should get to horde all the wealth their grandparents may have cheated to get, however. > > Remember that the level of ‘rich’ requires usually exploiting the rules. Hording land in key developing areas. Building a company that skims all the efforts of thousands of people into the pockets of just the owner. Tax shelters so your money grows faster. Helping out money launderers and other criminals under the table. Finding and exploiting an inherent monopoly in computer operating systems. > > It’s very difficult to get there totally fairly. > > And that’s fine. But why should these inequities persist for centuries? It’s not like you or I can do the same thing to get rich, today - most of the holes in the economic system that got abused have been patched, market niches filled, etc. Scandinavia has solved the problem of uneven distribution of wealth by imposing very high taxes on the very rich. Inheritance taxes can be even higher. ---
**Author:** ![Grim\_Render](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a87d85/32.png) [@Grim\_Render](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grim_Render)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2018, 7:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finland-cancels-their-ubi-test-program/812737/109 "2018-05-02T07:31:17Z")
> [@CCitizen](#): > > Scandinavia has solved the problem of uneven distribution of wealth by imposing very high taxes on the very rich. That’s a bit of a myth really. In practice, taxes top out at about 33 - 36 %. ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2018, 8:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finland-cancels-their-ubi-test-program/812737/110 "2018-05-02T08:25:24Z")
> [@Grim\_Render](#): > > That’s a bit of a myth really. In practice, taxes top out at about 33 - 36 %. Last I checked Norway has a lower top tax than the US, but Sweden and especially Denmark are much higher. Caveats include - that’s marginal tax rate, deductions and income limits and such may make things different - there are more taxes in play than just income tax ---
**Author:** ![Grim\_Render](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a87d85/32.png) [@Grim\_Render](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grim_Render)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2018, 10:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finland-cancels-their-ubi-test-program/812737/111 "2018-05-02T10:35:10Z")
> [@thelurkinghorror](#): > > Last I checked Norway has a lower top tax than the US, but Sweden and especially Denmark are much higher. Caveats include > > - that’s marginal tax rate, deductions and income limits and such may make things different > > - there are more taxes in play than just income tax Yes. And while I don’t think Sweden and Denmarks system is identical to ours, I believe its fairly close. Marginal tax rates are for income tax. For the very rich, income tax isn’t that relevant. The tax on investment yields (is that what is called capital gains?) is a flat 27 % here. Which is where the very rich is going to be getting the vast majority of their income. That is why taxes in practice tops out at 33-36 %. As people move out of that bracket, more and more of their income are of the 27 % flat rate type. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finland-cancels-their-ubi-test-program/812737.md?page=5)