# Finn Again's Wake **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 18, 2010, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finn-agains-wake/532923 "2010-03-18T19:10:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 19
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2010, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finn-agains-wake/532923/361 "2010-04-01T23:34:52Z")
> [@](#): > > …Carter is either totally honest or eeeeevil. Or c) None of the above. The category that includes better than 99% of the human species. Note that this category includes the raving fanatic who believes himself totally honest, despite all evidence to the contrary. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2010, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finn-agains-wake/532923/362 "2010-04-01T23:35:55Z")
> [@spoke-](#): > > And why would Carter do _that?_ What’s in it for him? Well, _virgins_, of course! Duh. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2010, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finn-agains-wake/532923/363 "2010-04-01T23:51:40Z")
> [@spoke-](#): > > And why would Carter do _that?_ What’s in it for him? Okay, I’ve been trolled by you enough for a day. Adios. ---
**Author:** ![ivn1188](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e480ec/32.png) [@ivn1188](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivn1188)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2010, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finn-agains-wake/532923/364 "2010-04-02T00:05:59Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Okay, I’ve been trolled by you enough for a day. > Adios. Heh. You’re the only person in this thread going off about everyone else being racists and “eeeeeevil” and citing from obviously biased websites, not to mention your sheer volume of invective. People in glass houses, and all that. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2010, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finn-agains-wake/532923/365 "2010-04-02T00:11:25Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Well, _virgins_, of course! Duh. Wait, _Carter_ is a secret Muslim? I thought that was Obama. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2010, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finn-agains-wake/532923/366 "2010-04-02T00:18:42Z")
> [@spoke-](#): > > And why would Carter do _that?_ What’s in it for him? The thing is, **spoke-** , a lot of what Carter has stated about Israel and the Israel-Palestinian situation just isn’t true. I don’t know what motivates him to do that, but he does. And when he does it as much as he does, it’s kind of hard to believe that he doesn’t have bad motives. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2010, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finn-agains-wake/532923/367 "2010-04-02T01:00:45Z")
CA, by the same token, do you really think that spoke really is confused and isn’t aware of anybody playing partisan politics or supporting one side in a conflict over another? He’s truly baffled that such a thing might be possible? He’d offer the same baffled support to someone who routinely lied to demonize the Palestinians and paint the Israelis as blameless? His question is honest (and there’s a good reason why he still hasn’t addressed Carter’s dishonesty or the use it’s being put to…), and spoke really is baffled that anybody, especially anybody who consistently lies to support one side in a conflict and demonize another. might be a partisan? It’s the same behavior spoke seems to generally engage in when Carter’s lies are the topic. First he tries to avoid or handwave away Carter’s lies. Then he asks the same question over and over and over again, despite the number of times it’s been answered. Then he claims that people who have noticed what Carter is doing must be claiming he’s evil and is working to destroy Israel. Somewhere along the line he claims that we can’t look at the facts of Carter’s lies or the pattern that they represent, because he’s such a good man that to criticize his behavior is beyond the pale. It’s just the same old bullshit from spoke, and he’s not going to act honorably any time soon. He’ll happily say that I’m making “bullshit” claims that are a “smear”, but when asked to show where I’m wrong in my claims, he changes the subject. Or feigns surprise that partisans exist in the world. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2010, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finn-agains-wake/532923/368 "2010-04-02T01:22:04Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > The thing is, **spoke-** , a lot of what Carter has stated about Israel and the Israel-Palestinian situation just isn’t true. I don’t know what motivates him to do that, but he does. And when he does it as much as he does, it’s kind of hard to believe that he doesn’t have bad motives. Such as? Y’all keep walking up to the edge of the pool but you won’t dive in. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2010, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finn-agains-wake/532923/369 "2010-04-02T01:43:57Z")
> [@spoke-](#): > > What is Carter’s agenda, Finn? What is that lying bigot up to? What do you mean when you use the word? Quit weaseling. > [@spoke-](#): > > Y’all keep walking up to the edge of the pool but you won’t dive in. This is getting really confusing, y’all. I read what seem to be clear statements from several posters ( **Malthus, Captain Amazing, Finn** ) that they believe Jiminy Carter is biased on the subject of Israel. **spoke** seems to think there is some sinister motivation being hinted at for Carter in a weaselly way (especially by **Finn** ), so he keeps alleging this (or, rather, creeping up to the edge of alleging it) using dark sinister hints in a way that to the casual observer seems rather, well, weaselly. It is doubly confusing since **spoke** has a history on this board of hinting at dark hidden conspiracies by supporters of Israel, never coming right out and saying he thinks they exist but that we must be _vewy vewy careful_ about the possibility, and after all he’s Just Asking Questions. :dubious: So c’mon **spoke** , stop confusing us by hinting around about other people hinting around, and spit it out. What dastardly deeds are your opponents allegedly engaging in, and is there really a shrine dedicated to Jimmy Carter in your living room with velvet wall hangings and such? ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2010, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finn-agains-wake/532923/370 "2010-04-02T01:59:14Z")
**Jackmannii** , did you tag in now? I need a scorecard. > [@Jackmannii](#): > > It is doubly confusing since **spoke** has a history on this board of hinting at dark hidden conspiracies by supporters of Israel, never coming right out and saying he thinks they exist but that we must be _vewy vewy careful_ about the possibility, and after all he’s Just Asking Questions. :dubious: Oh bullshit. I have never hinted at any “dark conspiracies.” If you contend otherwise, pull a cite or else man up and withdraw that allegation. What I have done is noted the impact of [AIPAC](http://www.aipac.org/) on US foreign policy. That doesn’t require any conspiracy theory, and is hardly a controversial observation (or shouldn’t be anyway). So do you buy into **Finn** and **Captain Amazing** ’s notion that Carter has some mysterious “bad motive”? If so, what is that motive? Why would he go out of his way to embroil himself in this mess? What does he hope to achieve? I haven’t yet seen a plausible alternative to this: Carter genuinely wants to be a peacemaker. But if you have a plausible alternative to that, let’s hear it. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2010, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finn-agains-wake/532923/371 "2010-04-02T02:03:49Z")
Well, he sure put the effort into fooling us all, gotta say that! Shows some real commitment, something even a KGB mole out of a LeCarre book would find daunting! Goes out and swings a hammer for Habitat? I’ve swung a hammer for money, and I’ll tell you right now its work, and I hate work, and I think that, over all, I’m a decent sort, but I’m damned if I’m working that hard for strangers, and for free! But he does it. And he damned sure doesn’t have to. (I’m sure the Secret Service guys assigned to him wishes he’d just sit on the back porch and drink, but no such luck…) Taught Sunday School for years, broke with the Southern Baptists when they got too mean-spirited. Gone all over the world taking risks for peace. His phone rings, someone asks him to go to Godknows as an honest broker, he packs his bag, and gone. He gets called in to watch elections, broker negotiations, all manner of peace mongering. And he did all of this just so’s he could sneak up on Israel and knife her? Well, OK, if that’s what you think, takes all kinds, I reckon. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2010, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finn-agains-wake/532923/372 "2010-04-02T02:22:12Z")
Oh Clowny, you are so funny. Witty, too! Surely, let us avoid Carter’s habit of lying and the way in which he uses those lies, and let’s talk about how he builds houses or goes to church. Obviously, then, anybody who wants to talk about him lying must be alleging that he only _pretended_ to build houses so as to pounce on Israel. You’re so clever. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2010, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finn-agains-wake/532923/373 "2010-04-02T02:24:01Z")
Well _I_ chuckled. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2010, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finn-agains-wake/532923/374 "2010-04-02T02:34:55Z")
Well, the other explanation is that he’s over all a pretty good fellow, but on the subject of Israel, he’s unhinged. Jimmy Carter, that is. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2010, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finn-agains-wake/532923/375 "2010-04-02T02:46:04Z")
You mean, we might actually look at the evidence to see if Carter has a habit of lying about the subject, if his lies support an agenda and if that agenda is a partisan agenda of demonizing Israel and absolving the Palestinians of any and all blame… rather than looking at whether or not he built houses? Goddamn Clowny, why didn’t someone suggest that before now, think of the time we’d have saved! Still, I think we’ve pretty much just engaged in some gruesome debate-equivalent of coitus interuptus. Spoke has been jacking off in the mere hope that someone will call Carter an anti-Semite and then spoke can go on to claim that nobody, ever, can criticize Israel without being called an anti-Semite. He had a tissue ready and everything. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2010, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finn-agains-wake/532923/376 "2010-04-02T02:54:50Z")
All I am doing **Finn** , is giving you some rope. You are doing the rest. Keep on trying to demonize Jimmy Carter, and see how many people you convince. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2010, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finn-agains-wake/532923/377 "2010-04-02T02:58:53Z")
> [@spoke-](#): > > So do you buy into **Finn** and **Captain Amazing** ’s notion that Carter has some mysterious “bad motive”? If so, what is that motive? Why would he go out of his way to embroil himself in this mess? What does he hope to achieve? I don’t know if Carter has a bad motive or not. He might sincerely want to be a peacemaker. I don’t really care what his motive is, though. I care what he says and what he does, not why he says and does it. As for such as, if you want me to jump into the pool, I’ll jump into the pool. Such as… Carter says, in his book, that Israel needs to withdraw “to the 1967 border as specified in the U.N. Resolution 242”. UN Resolution 242 doesn’t say that Israel has to withdraw to the 1967 border. It requires “Withdrawal of Israel armed forces from territories occupied in the recent conflict”, but that doesn’t mean that Israel needs to withdraw from all the territory back to the border. In later interviews about the subject, he said > [@](#): > > The demand is for them to give back all the land. The United Nations resolutions that apply, the agreements that have been made at Camp David under me and later at Oslo for which the Israeli leaders received the Nobel Peace Prizes, was based on Israel’s withdrawal from occupied territories.- PBS Newshour, November 28, 2006 But that’s not what the agreement at Camp David said. The agreement said (bolding mine) > [@](#): > > the negotiations shall be based on all the provisions and principles of UN Security Council Resolution 242. **The negotiations will resolve, among other matters, the location of the boundaries** and the nature of the security arrangements. So the Camp David Agreement didn’t say Israel was to give back all the land. It said the borders would be settled by negotiation. Carter states in the book "When I met with Yasir Arafat in 1990, he stated ‘The PLO has never advocated the annihilation of Israel.’ " It’s probably true that Arafat said that, but Arafat’s statement was false, and Carter should have known that. The PLO charter, for instance, says “The liberation of Palestine, from an Arab viewpoint, is a national duty and it attempts to repel the Zionist and imperialist aggression against the Arab homeland, and aims at the elimination of Zionism in Palestine.-Article 15” In his November 28th appearance on PBS Newshour, Carter made the statement, about Hamas, “Since August of 2004, Hamas has not committed a single act of terrorism that cost an Israeli life, not one.” Well, he was right. Between August 2004 and November 2006, Hamas didn’t commit a single act of terrorism, it committed at least 6 acts of terrorism, and killed at least 12 Israelis. Those were just actions it claimed credit for. When Carter talks about the security wall/fence/barrier, whatever you want to call it, he makes the claim that it is “projected to be at least three and a half times as long as Israel’s internationally recognized border.” A United Nations report criticizing the border says that it is “[at 703 km], more than twice the length of the Green Line [315 km]” If you get the chance, read Alan Dershowitz’s “The Case Against Israel’s Enemies: Exposing Jimmy Carter and Others Who Stand in the Way of Peace”, which he wrote in response to Carter’s book. The book doesn’t just look at Carter, of course, but in the appendix, he looks at a bunch of stuff that Carter says that isn’t true, and documents how it’s not true. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2010, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finn-agains-wake/532923/378 "2010-04-02T03:22:42Z")
I have a lot of difficulty accepting what appears to be a core premise of your reasoning, and happy to be corrected if wrong. You seem to believe that Israel has some right of conquest to territory gained by force of arms. That such territory is hers to negotiate about in the first place. I hope that we are struggling to reach a level of civilization where such notions are scorned by all reasonable people. Its taking longer than we thought… ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2010, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finn-agains-wake/532923/379 "2010-04-02T03:25:52Z")
So in the _multitude_ of interviews he has given on this subject, you have cherry-picked a handful of factual misstatements he has made along the way and these are the “LIES LIES LIES” we keep hearing about? Couldn’t they be, y’know, _mistakes?_ And no, you still haven’t jumped in the pool. You insinuate Carter has “bad motives,” (your words) but you won’t say what those “bad motives” could possibly be. I say Carter is trying to be a peacemaker. Still waiting for a plausible alternative. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2010, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finn-agains-wake/532923/380 "2010-04-02T03:54:39Z")
Again, readers should check out a nice list of [Carter’s lies](http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_context=2&x_outlet=118&x_article=1273). They will note that they are, without exception, all lies that make shit up in order to slime Israel and/or exonerate the Palestinians of any misdeeds. Without exception. Spoke would have you believe that they are all honest mistakes that just sorta happened, and that they all favor one side is just, ya know, luck. Then again, Spoke is also a partisan whore and has the personal integrity of a hungry ferret. He knows full well that there’s an entire list of Carter’s lies, of which Captain Amazing was only citing a brief few. Spoke knows this, because he’s debated it in the past as well as just the other day in GD when he tried to handwave away the entire list as “quibbles”. Now he pretends he’s never seen it at all. Here’s another sampling. Of course, Carter is, in all cases, honestly wrong. For serious. And the fact that his mistakes always cast Israel in the worst possible light, why, that’s just a coincidence! Or, as I posted in the other thread, and spoke has ignored to focus on his dodge of “guess Carter’s emotional state!”: > [@](#): > > Washington Post Op-Ed, Nov. 26, 2000: > > Prime Minister Begin pledged that there would be no establishment of new settlements until after the final peace negotiations were completed. But later, under Likud pressure, he declined to honor this commitment … > > FACT: > Begin promised—and delivered—a three month settlement freeze. At a Sept. 17, 2003 symposium at the Woodrow Wilson Center, Israeli jurist Aharon Barak explained he was in the relevant meeting, had been the only one taking notes, and that his notes showed that Begin had agreed only to a three month freeze. Off camera Carter is heard to state, “I don’t dispute that.” William Quandt then added that while he had not been in the meeting, Cyrus Vance (Jimmy Carter’s Secretary of State) had been, and told him immediately afterwards that Begin agreed to a three month freeze. > […] > CARTER: > > CNBC, The Tim Russert Show, Dec. 2, 2006: > > "[The Road Map peace plan] was immediately adopted in its totality by the Palestinians, who still have no caveats and no objections to the Road Map terms. > > FACT: > > Mahmoud Abbas, at the time the incoming Prime Minister under Yasir Arafat, did indeed verbally express his support for the document. But there is no evidence that the Palestinian Authority cabinet or parliament ever approved the Road Map, as would be required for such an international agreement. Indeed, there’s no evidence it was ever even discussed by these bodies. Therefore it is nonsense to claim that the “Palestinians” or the PA under Fatah rule accepted the Road Map. > > And the PA under Hamas rule has refused to accept previously signed agreements, including the Road Map. > […] > Carter: “… since August of 2004, has not committed a single act of terrorism that cost an Israeli life, not a single one.” > Judy Woodruff: “I think many Americans would be surprised to hear that.” > Carter: “I know. They would be surprised, but it’s an actual fact.” > > FACT: > > On Aug. 31, 2004, Sixteen people were killed and 100 wounded in two nearly simultaneous suicide bombings aboard two city buses in Beer Sheva. Hamas claimed responsibility. > On Sept. 29, 2004, two preschool children were killed by a Qassam rocket fired from Gaza. Hamas claimed responsibility. > On Jan 13, 2005, Palestinians terrorists attacked the Karni crossing between the Gaza Strip and Israel, killing 6 civilians. Hamas claimed joint responsibility. > On July 14, 2005, a woman was killed by a Qassam rocket fired from Gaza. Hamas claimed responsibility. > […] > CARTER: > CSPAN2, Book TV, Dec. 3, 2006: > > … And what the Palestinians asked for is, “We’ll swap you this one soldier [Gilad Shalit] if you’ll just release some of the hundred women you’re holding – about a hundred – or some of the little children you’re holding …,” and the Israeli government refused to swap … > > FACT: > > On June 26, 2006, CNN reported: > > Palestinian militants distributed a statement Monday saying they \*\*will provide information about \*\*a kidnapped Israeli soldier if Israel agrees to release all female prisoners and all children under 18 being held in Israeli jails. > > According to the Jan. 3, 2007 Jerusalem Post, “A senior Hamas official said Thursday his group was ready **to give Israel a videotape of the soldier** if it agreed to release Palestinian women prisoners and other detainees.” So Carter lies about treaties, lies about agreements, calls an exchange of prisoners for a video tape a prisoner swap (while scourging Israel for not accepting)… but that’s just all honest peacemaking, right? > [@](#): > > CARTER: > Page 148: Maps on this page are labeled: “Palestinian Interpretation of Clinton’s Proposal 2000” and “Israeli Interpretation of Clinton’s Proposal 2000.” > > FACT: > The maps are mislabeled. Dennis Ross, the U.S. peace negotiator who drew up the original version of Carter’s maps, explained: > > The problem is that the ‘‘Palestinian interpretation’’ is actually taken from an Israeli map presented during the Camp David summit meeting in July 2000, while the ‘‘Israeli interpretation’’ is an approximation of what President Clinton subsequently proposed in December of that year. Without knowing this, the reader is left to conclude that the Clinton proposals must have been so ambiguous and unfair that Yasir Arafat, the Palestinian leader, was justified in rejecting them. But that is simply untrue. (New York Times, Jan. 9, 2007) > > Rick Richman gives further details about how the maps are mislabeled, and explains that “the point [Carter] was trying to make with the borrowed and altered maps is central to his entire book.” > […] > CNN, The Situation Room, Nov. 28, 2006 > You could check with all the records. Barak never did accept [the Clinton parameters]. > > FACT: > According to Clinton’s parameters, “a small Israeli presence” under the authority of an international force could remain in “fixed locations” in the Jordan Valley, but it would withdraw after a maximum of 36 months. Israel would withdraw from “between 94 and 96 percent of West Bank territory” and there would be a land swap of 1 to 3 percent. Barak’s response was clear—he accepted the parameters. (Dennis Ross, The Missing Peace) > […] > CARTER: > Page 130: … when I visited Damascus in 1990, President Assad informed me that he was willing to negotiate with Israel on the status of the Golan Heights. His proposal was that both sides withdraw from the international border … [and] Syria might move its troops farther from the border because of the terrain. > > FACT: > Former executive director of the Carter Center Kenneth Stein, who was at the meeting, explained that his own notes of the Damascus meeting show that Assad, in response to a question from Carter, replied that Syria could not accept a demilitarized Golan without “sacrificing our sovereignty.” Stein also disputed Carter’s statement in the book that Assad expressed willingness to move Syria’s troops farther from the border than Israel should be required to do. (Los Angeles Times, Jan. 17, 2006) > […] > CARTER: > Page 121: Each Israeli settler uses five times as much water as a Palestinian neighbor, who must pay four times as much per gallon. > > FACT: > According to Sharif Elmusa, who was a water negotiator for the Palestinian side in talks with Israel, Palestinians in the West Bank pay approximately $1 per CM for domestic water, “virtually identical with the price in Israel …” (Elmusa, Water Conflict, 144) > Similarly, with regard to agricultural water, Elmusa writes: " … in absolute terms, the price of irrigation water in Israel, the West Bank, and Jordan converged, and water prices could not have affected competitiveness in any significant way." (Elmusa, 173) > […] > CARTER: > Page 197: Confessions extracted through torture are admissible in Israeli courts. > > FACT: > Under Israeli criminal procedures when a person claims that his confession was extracted via torture, a “trial-within-a-trial” is immediately held (in Hebrew mishpat zuta) in which the prosecution must prove that torture or other illegitimate means were not used. If the prosecution is unable to disprove claims of torture the confession is thrown out. In addition, if it appears that other illegal means short of torture were used, the confession can be admitted, but only if the court finds that the interrogation did not prejudice the defendant’s free will. (See for example, The Right to a Fair Trial, D. Weissbrodt and R. Wolfrum, eds., Springer, 1997.) > […] > CARTER: > NPR, Fresh Air, Nov. 26, 2006: > So far neither Olmert nor his predecessor Sharon has been willing to negotiate at all with the Palestinians even though their choice and the choice of the United States, that is Mahmoud Abbas, was the prime minister under of Arafat and later elected to be president. … > > Even when he was ordained as the one to represent the Palestinians, still not a single day of negotiations has been committed by Israel or the United States. > > FACT: > News reports prove Carter wrong. For example, the New York Times’ Steven Erlanger wrote on Feb. 9, 2005: > > Mahmoud Abbas, the Palestinian president, and Ariel Sharon, prime minister of Israel, held summit talks at this Egyptian resort on Tuesday – the highest-level meeting between the sides in four years – and declared a truce in hostilities. Well, darn, Carter’s own staff have caught him lying several times and pointed it out. How can that be? He helps build house! And, hrm… Carter’s doing the same thing again. Lying to pretend that Israel is simply choosing to avoid or even willfully obstructing peace (if not encouraging the torture of prisoners)… I’m sure there’s a good reason for it. Surely this fits into “peacemaking” somehow. And doesn’t show that Carter is bigoted against Israel and uses fiction to support his narrative and ignores facts when they contradict. Surely not. He’s a peacemaker! I trust Spoke will explain. P.S. Spoke, you are a lying stooge. You’ve already been given a plausible explanation: carter is a partisan. Now pretend you haven’t seen that some more, idiot. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finn-agains-wake/532923.md?page=18) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finn-agains-wake/532923.md?page=20)