# Finn Again's Wake **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 18, 2010, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finn-agains-wake/532923 "2010-03-18T19:10:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 20
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2010, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finn-agains-wake/532923/381 "2010-04-02T03:58:10Z")
So what is Carter’s motive for “lying?” What is his end game? Still waiting. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2010, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finn-agains-wake/532923/382 "2010-04-02T04:04:11Z")
> [@spoke-](#): > > **Jackmannii** , did you tag in now? I need a scorecard. Are the bad men ganging up on poor **spoke**? I sense a persecution complex. > [@spoke](#): > > Oh bullshit. I have never hinted at any “dark conspiracies.” If you contend otherwise, pull a cite or else man up and withdraw that allegation. They changed the forum titles for a day, but [your bullshit lives on](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=387638&highlight=spoke-+israel). Posts #22 and #25 give a flavor of the **spoke** worldview and your habit of sidling up to accusations and then slinking away. > [@spoke](#): > > I think it is wrong to dismiss the influence of Israel on American foreign policy… **spoke** speaks here in alarmist tones about members of the Project for a New American Century, a slightly more respectable target than Skull and Bones or the Illuminati) > [@spoke](#): > > Now does all of this add up to a “conspiracy” or the presence of Israeli agents in the US government? **Not necessarily**. But what is very clear is that the Bush administration has included a lot of people with uncomfortably close ties to Israel…It is not necessary that Perle, Wolfowitz and the others be **actual agents for Israel**. It is enough cause for concern that they have very close personal ties to Israel… **That is the danger** in my view…It is no conspiracy theory to state that Israel actively lobbies the US government. (See the American Israel Public Affairs Committee mentioned above.) Whether Israel goes beyond lobbying is something for which there is some circumstantial evidence but no hard proof. **It would be naive, in my opinion, to dismiss the possibility out of hand. I would say the situation bears close watching** (bolding added) Oooo! It’s “not necessarily” true that supporters of Israel have gone beyond lobbying and that Israeli agents have infiltrated the U.S. government, but there’s “circumstantial evidence” and we “can’t dismiss the possibility out of hand”. We must be _vewy vewy careful_. Those postings made you come across as a lamebrained conspiracy theorist who doesn’t have the courage to go beyond innuendo and nudge nudge wink wink hints. And I’ve seen nothing since then to change that appraisal of you. So it’s a spectacularly hilarious case of Pot Kettle Black for you to be accusing opponents in this thread of hinting around to smear Carter without saying what they really mean. Projection at its finest. > [@](#): > > So do you buy into **Finn** and **Captain Amazing** ’s notion that Carter has some mysterious “bad motive”? If so, what is that motive? Why would he go out of his way to embroil himself in this mess? What does he hope to achieve? I haven’t followed much of Carter’s involvement in his post-presidential years. It does seem that he’s biased towards the Palestinian side, and others here have presented evidence that he makes arguments based on flawed facts, leaves out things that don’t support his contentions and uses unjustifiable language designed to inflame rather promote peace. As to why, I don’t know the man, but the most obvious explanation would be that he strongly feels the Palestinian side is in the right, zealously wants to support them, and in his fervor (and secondary to possible loss of a few critical neurons, who can tell?) has lost the scruples and sense of fairness that would make him a force for peace instead of the kind of biased advocate we already see too much of in this debate. There’s my answer. I’ll ask you again: what nefarious purpose do you think Carter’s _critics_ here have in mind? What’s their ulterior motive, in your view? Have the courage to say what you think. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2010, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finn-agains-wake/532923/383 "2010-04-02T04:15:18Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > …what nefarious purpose do you think Carter’s critics here have in mind. Ah, defending Israel against criticism? Just a wild stab, there… ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2010, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finn-agains-wake/532923/384 "2010-04-02T04:15:35Z")
> [@spoke-](#): > > So in the _multitude_ of interviews he has given on this subject, you have cherry-picked a handful of factual misstatements he has made along the way and these are the “LIES LIES LIES” we keep hearing about? Couldn’t they be, y’know, _mistakes?_ Like **Finnagain** said, the things I mentioned are just a few of Carter’s “mistakes”. There are a lot more of them, but I’m not going to write hundreds of pages analyzing all of Carter’s statements and laying out the inaccuracies in them. It’s not something I’d enjoy writing and I don’t think it’s something you’d enjoy reading. But if you’re really interested, check out the appending to Dershowitz’s book, where he lists a whole bunch of errors in Carter’s book. > [@](#): > > And no, you still haven’t jumped in the pool. You insinuate Carter has “bad motives,” (your words) but you won’t say what those “bad motives” could possibly be. > > I say Carter is trying to be a peacemaker. Still waiting for a plausible alternative. Carter is trying to be a peacemaker. The bad motives I suspect Carter of having in the book is that he’s going out of his way to make the Palestinians look better than they are and the Israelis look worse than they are. Those are the bad motives I’m talking about. Why he’s choosing this strategy, I don’t know. If I had to guess, it’s because he believes that Americans are too pro-Israeli and that this is getting in the way of America pressuring Israel to set up a Palestinian state. So, by turning American sympathy toward the Palestinians and against the Israelis, it will lead to greater American pressure on Israel. It’s possible one of his motives is as has been mentioned earlier in this thread and in the other thread…that his religious beliefs have led him to an unrealistically high opinion of Jews, and that’s led him to believe that Israel, as a Jewish state, should be held at a higher standard than other countries. It’s possible that Jimmy Carter just has a really high sense of sympathy for the oppressed and people whose rights are being violated, and that he feels he has a moral duty to do whatever is necessary to stop the Israeli occupation of the West Bank and Gaza. I don’t know. I don’t know why Jimmy Carter does the things he does. I just wish he’d stop telling untruths about Israel. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2010, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finn-agains-wake/532923/385 "2010-04-02T04:18:11Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > …in alarmist tones about members of the Project for a New American Century, a slightly more respectable target than Skull and Bones or the Illuminati) … You can speak about them in any tones you like, but as far as I’m concerned, they are not as “respectable” as NAMBLA! ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2010, 8:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finn-agains-wake/532923/386 "2010-04-02T08:48:53Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > We must be _vewy vewy careful_. Well, obviously he wasn’t careful enough. “Someone” took a note. You’re on the lists now **Spoke** ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2010, 10:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finn-agains-wake/532923/387 "2010-04-02T10:24:08Z")
> [@spoke-](#): > > So what is Carter’s motive for “lying?” What is his end game? > > Still waiting. You’re not doing yourself any favors by playing a gotcha game. You have yet to prove that knowing Carter’s motives is even relevant. One does not necessarily need to know what the agenda is to recognize that one is being followed. People in general don’t consistently make falsehoods that slant in on direction without having a reason for doing so. Politicians even more so. I say all of this without having a single opinion on this subject. I didn’t know anything about this before reading this thread. And I’m probably never going to know much more. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2010, 11:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finn-agains-wake/532923/388 "2010-04-02T11:15:57Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > One does not necessarily need to know what the agenda is to recognize that one is being followed. No, _one_ does, otherwise it is not quite an agenda, is it? Or is it something like this? 1. Tell unnecessary lies about evul jooz. 2. ??? 3. Profit. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2010, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finn-agains-wake/532923/389 "2010-04-02T15:46:53Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > No, _one_ does, otherwise it is not quite an agenda, is it? His agenda in writing the book was to make the Israeli government look worse than it was, and the PLO/Hamas look better than they were. As to **spoke-**'s statement earlier, the reason I don’t think they’re just simple mistakes (because, of course, anybody can make simple mistakes), is because all the errors are in one direction. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2010, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finn-agains-wake/532923/390 "2010-04-02T15:54:04Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > His agenda in writing the book was to make the Israeli government look worse than it was, and the PLO/Hamas look better than they were. That sounds like he is trying to balance things out. If the mainstream media view is to be believed, it’s poor, oppressed little Israel, against those raving, ravaging Arabs. Do you not think it fair for him to point out that there isn’t just the one group of villains in this piece, and that neither side are all good or all bad? ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2010, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finn-agains-wake/532923/391 "2010-04-02T16:14:37Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > the reason I don’t think they’re just simple mistakes (because, of course, anybody can make simple mistakes), is because all the errors are in one direction. I’d go a bit further than that, myself. They’re not _just_ all in one direction, there are _a lot of them_ . And it’s not _just_ all in one direction and there are _a lot of them_, it’s also that _many are very easily verifiable as untruths_, indicating that Carter either doesn’t care about fact checking, or knows he’s wrong and doesn’t care about lying. And it’s not _just_ all in one direction and there are _a lot of them_, or that _many are very easily verifiable as untruths_, it’s also the fact that Carter definitely knew he was wrong, such as his claims about what he himself negotiated at Camp David or when in 2003 he admits that he’s incorrect about Begin promising more than a three month settlement freeze… and then goes on to repeat the same ‘honest mistake’ in his book. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2010, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finn-agains-wake/532923/392 "2010-04-02T16:19:33Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > Are the bad men ganging up on poor **spoke**? I sense a persecution complex. Nah, not really. I don’t mind discussing this stuff with **Malthus** and **Captain Amazing**. They seem like thoughtful and honest debaters, even though we may disagree. You, on the other hand, seem like not much more than **Finn** ’s lap dog, jumping in with a “Yap! Yap! Yap!” every time there is a lull in the conversation, but seldom contributing anything of substance. > [@](#): > > They changed the forum titles for a day, but [your bullshit lives on](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=387638&highlight=spoke-+israel). Hey, thanks for linking that thread. I hope people reading this thread will read that thread, **in its entirety**. They can then judge for themselves whether I am the nutty conspiracy theorist you would like me to be. Funny that in the most _damning_ post you could find, I specifically pointed out that I wasn’t positing a “conspiracy,” and that it doesn’t require a “conspiracy” as such for our foreign policy to be unduly influenced. It is not a “conspiracy theory” to see the influence of [AIPAC](http://www.aipac.org/) on US foreign policy. Hell, they brag about it on their website. Furthermore, **Finn** likes to say that “dual loyalty” is an antisemitic “canard,” but I am not sure how else to view his blind devotion to Israel, and his refusal to brook criticism of her. I sure wouldn’t want someone with Finn’s outlook calling shots at the State Department or the Pentagon, yet we seem to have gotten a fair amount of that very thing under Bush. The concern, of course, is that someone with that level of devotion to Israel may start to conflate what is best for Israel with what is best for the US. Is that a “conspiracy theory”? What part of that concern requires a “conspiracy?” > [@](#): > > I’ll ask you again: what nefarious purpose do you think Carter’s _critics_ here have in mind? What’s their ulterior motive, in your view? Not “nefarious” (your word), just overly-zealous. Zealous support of Israel, to the point of being ready to smear its critics as antisemites (or the ever so slightly more tactful “bigots”) in the case of Carter, or “lamebrained conspiracy theorists” in my case. > [@Captain Amazing](#): > > …that [Carter’s] religious beliefs have led him to an unrealistically high opinion of Jews, and that’s led him to believe that Israel, as a Jewish state, should be held at a higher standard than other countries. OK, I understand that criticism (though I disagree). And yet if I were to make that same criticism of American Jews – that they were allowing their faith (or ethicity, whatever) to influence their views on US policy toward Israel, the howls of “ANTISEMITE!!!” would shake the rafters. > [@BigT](#): > > You’re not doing yourself any favors by playing a gotcha game. You have yet to prove that knowing Carter’s motives is even relevant. I’m not the one who suggested Carter had some hidden agenda or sinister motive. But that suggestion having been made by others in this discussion, I was simply asking them to clarify what they meant rather than trucking in innuendo. Hardly a “gotcha game.” ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2010, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finn-agains-wake/532923/393 "2010-04-02T16:20:42Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > Do you not think it fair for him to point out that there isn’t just the one group of villains in this piece, and that neither side are all good or all bad? I don’t think it’s fair for him to lie in the service of his viewpoint. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2010, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finn-agains-wake/532923/394 "2010-04-02T16:48:47Z")
Simply for those reading along, I’d again like to point out that depths of dishonesty and deception that some of these creatures will stoop to. In a thread in which I’ve already re-posted criticisms of Israel, the common lie is trotted out that I never even allow criticism of Israel (again, in a thread in which I’ve done so myself). And this, in the service of spoke’s mission to claim that if Jews have a different view of the Israel/Palestine situation that he does, then they might just be traitors who are more loyal to a foreign nation. > [@](#): > > Furthermore, **Finn** likes to say that “dual loyalty” is an antisemitic “canard,” but I am not sure how else to view his blind devotion to Israel, and his refusal to brook criticism of her. Standard conspiracy addled ZOG nonsense. Jews can’t be trusted if they support Israel too much. By nature American Jews have to be looked at with suspicion and distrust if their politics differ from yours on the question of Israel. American Jews are actually all potential traitors if they view Israel differently than you do, and we need to keep a watch on all those Jews in government to make sure that they’re not going to sell out their own country for the interests of The Jewish State, etc, etc, etc. And spoke is very sad that his JAQing off about the dangerous of American Jews might just be seen as conspiracy mongering or somehow showing improper attitudes about a racial group. > [@spoke-](#): > > The concern, of course, is that someone with that level of devotion to Israel may start to conflate what is best for Israel with what is best for the US. Then the person voicing that concern is a rabid moron. Of course it’s a Conspiracy Theory. First you have to imagine that there are people who are\* more dedicated to a foreign place than their own home. \* Then you have to pretend that this will make them \*sacrifice their own home for some foreign place. \* Then you have to pretend that a cabal of these Dual Loyalty having Jews is busy crafting American policy. The irony, of course, that a partisan whore like you would object to others having partisan politics is… special. And then you go on and conflate how religious views might influence one with your slime about how Jews are influenced by our very ethnicity (not that you’ll actually come out and say it again, you’ll just tip toe up to the edge and merely ask what would happen if someone said that Jews’ ethnicity makes them untrustworthy supporters of Israel). And in the service of your conspiracy mongering and JAQing off, you’re now defending your Conspiracy Theory by arguing that it’s not really a conspiracy since all the Traitor Jews could be working alone and independently (just influenced by their ethnicity) as they’re busily harming the United States for the benefit of Israel. :smack: > [@spoke-](#): > > ready to smear its critics as antisemites (or the ever so slightly more tactful “bigots”) in the case of Carter, or “lamebrained conspiracy theorists” in my case. Yet again, please show how I’m wrong and that Carter’s pattern of lying to support his agenda doesn’t demonstrate bigotry. Come on, man up. You’ve babbled long enough about how you’re right and I’m “smearing” Carter, and yet I’ve proven my case and you haven’t even started on yours. And enough of your idiocy about how I really want to call Carter an anti-Semite. What kind of moron do you have to be to allege that, in this thread of all places, I’m pulling my punches? Yet again, address the facts, address the logic, and then show how Carter’s habit of lying to support an agenda of demonizing Israel while ignoring (or denying) facts that falsify that narrative and fabricating non-facts to support it does not show that he’s a partisan who is obstinately dedicated to his opinions and prejudices. You know, a bigot. I’ve cited the actual definition so I’m sure you can manage to understand what the word means. Instead of babbling some more about ‘smears’, show how it’s inaccurate. Here, in case you haven’t figured out how to argue honestly, I’ll remind you. > [@](#): > > Still not going to touch the facts, are you Spoke? > Let’s start real slow. > > -You show how Carter so continually makes ‘factual errors’ that are so very easy to correct. Some of which he knew weren’t true at the same time he said them. Explain how they are honest, good faith mistakes and not lies. > -If you cannot do that, explain how his lies all, and without exception, go to prop up his narrative that Israel is a warmongering aggressor that wasn’t nothing to do with peace, and the lies do so innocently and by coincidence. > -If you cannot do that, explain why his agenda-driven lies, that evince a desire to repeat Hamas fictions even when he knows they are untrue and to lie about Israel in order to demonize them, don’t demonstrate that he is obstinately and intolerantly dedicated to his opinions and prejudices, and they are all against Israel, and thus he is bigoted against Israel and uses lies to support his bigotry. > > Come on, this is not difficult. Support your argument. Mine fits together from facts that you are evidently unable or unwilling to rebut (because they’re accurate) and logic that is sound and valid and you are unable or unwilling to address, which is why you keep trying to change the subject. > At least try to argue honestly and intelligently. > Start by discussing the facts, it’s generally your best bet. Any time now. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2010, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finn-agains-wake/532923/395 "2010-04-02T17:06:36Z")
Nah, Finn. I’ve already told you I’m not going to get into a tedious post-parsing nit-picking debate with you, much as you love those. I do find some of Carter’s supposed “LIES!!!” pretty amusing, though: > [@Captain Amazing](#): > > When Carter talks about the security wall/fence/barrier, whatever you want to call it, he makes the claim that it is “projected to be at least three and a half times as long as Israel’s internationally recognized border.” > > A United Nations report criticizing the border says that it is “[at 703 km], more than twice the length of the Green Line [315 km]” What a _liar!_ What a _bigot!!!_ :rolleyes: An 80-something-year-old man gives dozens upon dozens of interviews on this topic, and you cherry-pick his extemporaneous misstatements out of the reams of transcripts of those interviews and characterize them as “agenda-driven LIES,” the better to smear Carter as a bigot. It all seems disingenuous and pathetic. Moreover, I am pretty sure you will not win any converts to your cause by screaming that Jimmy Carter is a bigot at the top of your lungs. Too many people are too familiar with Carter’s humanitarian record to buy that ludicrous idea. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2010, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finn-agains-wake/532923/396 "2010-04-02T17:25:06Z")
> [@spoke-](#): > > You, on the other hand, seem like not much more than **Finn** ’s lap dog], jumping in with a “Yap! Yap! Yap!” every time there is a lull in the conversation, but seldom contributing anything of substance. Yup, I get memos from **Finn** and Mossad every time he’s attacked, and am required to defend him on all conceivable occasions or forfeit my paycheck. (If this was the case, there’d never be any time to eat or sleep). Even worse, you’ve uncovered my mission to avoid _substance_! Irony meters roil wildly!!! If GD threads on the Middle East seldom produce anything besides heat and vitriol, what do you expect in a thread in the Pit attacking one particular poster? _Substance_ (not to mention kitten snuggles, how yesterday) has been virtually absent all along, most notably in your own posts (more projection). > [@spoke](#): > > I specifically pointed out that I wasn’t positing a “conspiracy,” and that it doesn’t require a “conspiracy” as such for our foreign policy to be unduly influenced. Oh yeah. “These people don’t have to be **actual agents** of a foreign power infiltrating our government and it’s not **necessarily** a conspiracy but we can’t dismiss that possibility and lookie at the circumstantial evidence and the situation **bears close watching** (pause to wipe away drool) but _of course_ I’m not suggesting a conspiracy” :rolleyes: > [@spoke](#): > > Furthermore, **Finn** likes to say that “dual loyalty” is an antisemitic “canard,” but I am not sure how else to view his blind devotion to Israel, and his refusal to brook criticism of her. This is a favorite meme of yours about supporters of Israel in general. Attacking the patriotism of those with whom you disagree just reeks with class. Your signature moment in this whole debate was probably that post in which you referenced the Minnesota Interstate bridge collapse and suggested that others would occur because we were spending needed maintenance funds on Israel. Never mind the gazillion other inane items we spend dough on which dwarf foreign aid to Israel (and for that matter, to Arab nations in the Middle East), **spoke** just _knows_ that it’s the Israeli aid that’s risking bridge collapses. I sure wouldn’t want someone with your inanely vitriolic outlook influencing policy in Washington. Kudos though for finally acknowledging what you’ve been hinting in post after post - that you think criticisms of Jimmy Carter must be based on beliefs that he’s an anti-Semite. No one has said this, and in fact there’ve been multiple posters giving logical reasons for Carter’s behavior that do not reference anti-Semitism. Yet **spoke** continues to harp on this, just as he has jumped up and down in numerous previous threads insisting that other posters are trying to call him an anti-Semite when no one has done any such thing. Why are you so obsessed about this? And more to the point, how about giving it a rest? > [@](#): > > **An 80-something-year-old man** gives dozens upon dozens of interviews on this topic, and you cherry-pick his extemporaneous misstatements out of the reams of transcripts of those interviews and characterize them as “agenda-driven LIES,” the better to smear Carter as a bigot. Sure, he’d much rather be smeared as senile. 😃 (to be fair, I alluded to this in an earlier post, though it was in reference to losing one’s scruples as opposed to misstating facts, insofar as the misstatements all appear to be in one direction). ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2010, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finn-agains-wake/532923/397 "2010-04-02T17:26:13Z")
Oh and this: > [@FinnAgain](#): > > By nature American Jews have to be looked at with suspicion and distrust if their politics differ from yours on the question of Israel. American Jews are actually all potential traitors if they view Israel differently than you do, and we need to keep a watch on all those Jews in government to make sure that they’re not going to sell out their own country for the interests of The Jewish State, etc, etc, etc. …is silly, and a self-serving distortion of my point. Of course not all Jews think alike when it comes to Israel. There are plenty of American Jews who are frequent critics of Israeli policy. And those Jews who are rabid in support of Israel, like yourself, hey, I sort of understand where you’re coming from. Israel is viewed as a safe harbor for Jews in the event of persecution. I get that. I understand that, and I understand the emotional desire to protect Israel and deflect criticism. At the same time, I have what I think is a reasonable concern that the attachment to Israel could interfere with an objective consideration of US interests. What is good for Israel is not always good for the US. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2010, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finn-agains-wake/532923/398 "2010-04-02T17:29:45Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > Kudos though for finally acknowledging what you’ve been hinting in post after post - that you think criticisms of Jimmy Carter must be based on beliefs that he’s an anti-Semite. No one has said this… [Sure they have.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12280534&postcount=19) ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2010, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finn-agains-wake/532923/399 "2010-04-02T17:32:45Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > I have a lot of difficulty accepting what appears to be a core premise of your reasoning, and happy to be corrected if wrong. You seem to believe that Israel has some right of conquest to territory gained by force of arms. That such territory is hers to negotiate about in the first place. > > I hope that we are struggling to reach a level of civilization where such notions are scorned by all reasonable people. Its taking longer than we thought… I’ve mostly been just reading along about the peanut farmer, but I wanted to touch on this and say: Really? That’s surprising to you? Israel was _attacked_ by hostile forces from multiple neighboring nations, kicked their asses and took some of their land. How is it not now (or then) theirs to do with what they wish? I mean…isn’t that kinda how wars/armed conflicts generally work? To the victor go the spoils? In retrospect it was pretty magnanimous of Israel to give _any_ of it back, considering they only took it because they were attacked first. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2010, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finn-agains-wake/532923/400 "2010-04-02T17:43:26Z")
> [@spoke-](#): > > OK, I understand that criticism (though I disagree). And yet if I were to make that same criticism of American Jews – that they were allowing their faith (or ethicity, whatever) to influence their views on US policy toward Israel, the howls of “ANTISEMITE!!!” would shake the rafters. Well, you are making that same criticism of American Jews. In fact, you’re doing more than that. Merely saying that Jews, because of their shared faith, tend to be biased towards Israel isn’t really controversial, and I think most people, including most Jews, would agree with you on that. You’ve gone beyond that, though, to claim that Jews have dual loyalty, to America and Israel. That’s doing more than just claiming that Jews are biased in favor of Israel; that’s calling the patriotism of Jews into question. I can’t speak for anyone else, but I know I personally find that claim offensive. And looking at the question of the border barrier in isolation, the fact that Carter got the length wrong, quite possibly could be, like you said, a simple mistake. And if that was the only thing that Carter got wrong, I don’t think anybody would be upset about his book. And it’s not just the case of an 80 something year old man making extemporaneous misstatements. That might be a little troubling, but I’m willing to cut Carter some slack, because being on tv, you can make mistakes. But he wrote a book, which presumably he researched, or at least had assistants researched. And if you look at the number and quality of factual mistakes he made in the book, and how one sided the mistakes are; how the mistakes consistently make the Israeli government look worse than it is, and the PLO and Hamas look better than they are, he deserves to be condemned, either for research so egregiously sloppy that it’s not worthy a man of his stature, or for deliberately making false statements he knows would portray Israel in a bad light. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finn-agains-wake/532923.md?page=19) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finn-agains-wake/532923.md?page=21)