# Finn Again's Wake **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 18, 2010, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finn-agains-wake/532923 "2010-03-18T19:10:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 23
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2010, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finn-agains-wake/532923/441 "2010-04-02T23:48:41Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > **Fois** , your question is both interesting and worthy, but I can’t do it any justice without a total hi-jack. Suffice to say that any property gained by violence by state to state conflict is a crime. I am entirely in my rights to resist a man seeking to bust me in the nose, but gun him down and take his house? > > You can find much better explication of this question in debates about the Mexican-American War. Was America provoked? Was it justified? How much did territorial ambitions affect the decision? > > A massive oversimplification, to be sure, but it will have to do for now, **Finn** is having such fun, I am loathe to distract from his joy. How is it a hijack to claim that Israel has to live by a set of different rules than any other nation throughout history that claimed property from another (or in the case of the 1967 war, several others) when attacked and was the victor? In that particular instance, I believe Israel was well within its rights to do so. ---
**Author:** ![wmfellows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c2a13f/32.png) [@wmfellows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wmfellows)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2010, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finn-agains-wake/532923/442 "2010-04-03T00:11:46Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > Quite.\* > \*not to mention that it got to be beastly expensive, the locals had an alarming propensity to start kicking one’s ass, and it was best to discover a belated sense of moral uprightness and get the hell out. Harrumph. The Empire in Africa was chugging along quite nicely, thanks; British rule ended rather differently than the French or Belgians. Precious little ass kicking involved at all, but yes unsustainable. Rather had the decency to realise that, rather than come up with increasingly tortured justifications. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2010, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finn-agains-wake/532923/443 "2010-04-03T00:26:14Z")
> [@FoieGrasIsEvil](#): > > So essentially, there is no hope. Its sad, really. So many lives are expended for what amounts to nothing but graves and a religious and ethnic conflict with no end but bloodshed. No, I’m not saying that, but I’m saying it’s difficult. As to your other suggestion, about Israel unilaterally acting to bring about peace, that’s even harder. I think that’s sort of what Israel has in mind with the security border. One endgame I see to that is, once the thing’s done, Israel saying, “Ok, everything on our side is Israel, everything not is not, and you Palestinians on your side can go fuck yourselves.” I don’t think that’s the best solution, for either side, but it might happen. ---
**Author:** ![wmfellows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c2a13f/32.png) [@wmfellows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wmfellows)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2010, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finn-agains-wake/532923/444 "2010-04-03T00:28:29Z")
> [@FoieGrasIsEvil](#): > > How is it a hijack to claim that Israel has to live by a set of different rules than any other nation throughout history that claimed property from another (or in the case of the 1967 war, several others) when attacked and was the victor? > > In that particular instance, I believe Israel was well within its rights to do so. Israel is not having to live by rules any different than any other modern nation, including China, for example. By international law, Israel is in violation of normal civilised standards - at least the Chinese have had the good grace to extend citizenship to the Tibetans one notes. > [@FinnAgain](#): > > And not to mention that WM is (rather predictably) trying to sneak an accusation in via insinuation, and it’s an accusation that’s false to facts. The Jewish migration to Palestine not only didn’t displace the Arabs, it allowed a hugely increased standard of living and allowed even more Arabs to live there than ever before in all of recorded history. Oh bolllocks, you mendacious bilious scumbag. Jewish colonisation demonstrably has displaced the bloody bastards. And your “logic” is specious relative to raised living standards - Jewish colonisation is not a bloody magic wand you demented lying pig. This line of argument is right out of the kind of scumbag justifications for Apartheid the Boers liked to trot out. Why more Black South Africans were alive and at better standards than before White Supremacy came along. Obviously they should thank God for the White Masters… (and similar arguments relative to other colonial rule have been made, morally bankrupt for white Rhodesia, for Kenyan settlers, etc) Classic post hoc fallacy combined with fallacy of excluded middle (as evidently one effect is better access to capital). Global technological advances, notably in medical sciences but of course in agriculture, etc. have permitted more Arabs to exist in every fucking country speaking Arabic than any time in history. And far richer than they ever were before as well (although no brilliance overall). No Israel nor Jewish colonisation required for that condition, it is then irrelevant as it would clearly obtain without. And they get to rule themselves, which _ **queerly enough** _ people seem to be attached to - human beings you know. Fuck all to do with precious Jewish colonisation. You’re a bloody deluded work you are. The very fact you extend such a morally bankrupt scum-bag argument highlights what a perverted twisted bilious creature you are. And for you nasty little twisted creature, the Falkland obs is fact; non-settled land and no other claims, a fundamentally different proposition than Israel right on its face, although I do enjoy that your twisted little mind sees your fine method of sly and nasty suggestion (a la your nasty little piece of work re H. Ford and Carter, that’s some right honest scum-baggery for a sly bit of aspersion) ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2010, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finn-agains-wake/532923/445 "2010-04-03T00:52:35Z")
> [@wmfellows](#): > > Oh bolllocks, you mendacious bilious scumbag. Jewish colonisation demonstrably has displaced the bloody bastards. Some, yes, but most Jewish colonization of the land that would become Israel in the 19th-early 20th century was either on unoccupied land, or the new settlers purchased the land from its owners (who, of course, weren’t often the occupiers of the land, which is part of the problem. Absentee land ownership and tenancy was really big in the Ottoman Levant. Most of the displacement, though, happened during the Israeli Independence War, where a lot of the Arab inhabitants (for various reasons; Jewish intimidation, Arab intimidation, the fear of being seen as collaborators, the desire to join Arab armies, what have you) decided it was a good idea to get out of Dodge. So, when you’re condemning the Jewish migration to Palestine, are you condemning the Jewish settlement of Ottoman and Mandate Palestine, or are you condemning current Israeli settlement in the West Bank? Or do you not see a difference between the two? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2010, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finn-agains-wake/532923/446 "2010-04-03T00:55:56Z")
> [@FoieGrasIsEvil](#): > > How is it a hijack to claim that Israel has to live by a set of different rules than any other nation throughout history that claimed property from another (or in the case of the 1967 war, several others) when attacked and was the victor?.. We all have to live by a different set of rules than those which applied “throughout history”. If we don’t, there will be no history, unless our cockroach inheritors shall learn to read. ---
**Author:** ![wmfellows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c2a13f/32.png) [@wmfellows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wmfellows)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2010, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finn-agains-wake/532923/447 "2010-04-03T01:10:05Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > …Most of the displacement, though, happened during the Israeli Independence War, where a lot of the Arab inhabitants (for various reasons; Jewish intimidation, Arab intimidation, the fear of being seen as collaborators, the desire to join Arab armies, what have you) decided it was a good idea to get out of Dodge. Yes, and don’t skip outright expulsions by Jewish militias and the Israeli army re 1948. Listing “various reasons” and dryly underplaying expulsions and fleeing the odd massacres and moreover, rumours of massacres is a bit precious. > [@](#): > > So, when you’re condemning the Jewish migration to Palestine, Condemning? I’m neither condemning nor supporting Jewish migration to historic Palestine. I’m fairly indifferent. What I am attacking is the wholly unnecessary and grotesque Finnagain distortions. The events of 1948 were doubtless inevitable, and on many levels I can hardly blame the Israeli / proto Israeli militias, but at the same time the Palestinian Arab reaction also rather strikes one as not irrational and logical, in particular in the context of reaction to foreign colonial rule (British that is). I don’t particularly, then desire to demonise either side given the situation. > [@](#): > > are you condemning the Jewish settlement of Ottoman and Mandate Palestine, or are you condemning current Israeli settlement in the West Bank? Or do you not see a difference between the two? To the extent I would condemn settlement, it would be the occupied territories - West Bank of course now. But that’s not really my prime point. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2010, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finn-agains-wake/532923/448 "2010-04-03T01:11:13Z")
> [@](#): > > What I am attacking is the wholly unnecessary and grotesque Finnagain distortions. A good hint, angry-idiot, is that _if you have to make them up, they are your distortions, and not mine._ I know, who’d a thunk it? > [@wmfellows](#): > > Oh bolllocks, you mendacious bilious scumbag. Jewish colonisation demonstrably has displaced the bloody bastards. Again, it’s quite interesting that creatures like you have to lie to claim I’m lying. It’s oh-so-very _meta._ [ > [@](#): > > 1. Zionist settlement between 1880 and 1948 did not displace or dispossess Palestinians. Every indication is that there was net Arab immigration into Palestine in this period, and that the economic situation of Palestinian Arabs improved tremendously under the British Mandate relative to surrounding countries. By 1948, there were approximately 1.35 million Arabs and 650,000 Jews living between the Jordan and the Mediterranean, more Arabs than had ever lived in Palestine before, and more Jews than had lived there since Roman times. Analysis of population by sub-districts shows that Arab population tended to increase the most between 1931 and 1948 in the same areas where there were large proportions of Jews. Therefore, Zionist immigration did not displace Arabs. ]([MidEast Web - Population of Palestine](http://www.mideastweb.org/palpop.htm)) It’s quite clear that Jewish settlement vastly increased the quality of life for everybody in the Mandate territory. Sorry the facts don’t fit in with your biases. Kindly stop making shit up in order to claim that the facts are lies. There’s a good chap. Or are you so demented that you can’t tell the difference between Jewish settlement in Ottoman territory and the Mandate, and Israeli settlements? Or are you just all hopped up on stupid-and-angry, and you couldn’t take the time to see that I was referring to the Jewish migration to Palestine in the past tense, not the Israeli settlement of the West Bank, which would be present tense? > [@wmfellows](#): > > Global technological advances, notably in medical sciences but of course in agriculture, etc. have permitted more Arabs to exist in every fucking country speaking Arabic than any time in history. You really are a ignorant little vile shit, aren’t you? Global technological advances of the sort you claim didn’t exist during the Jewish settlement in the Mandate, it was indeed the influx of Jews that raised the standard of living. It’s interesting that you have no clue what the fuck you’re blabbering about, but you go on at length spewing idiocy at me with maximum anger. Now go crawl back into your hole like a good like beasty until something else you don’t understand causes you to fly into a rage. ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2010, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finn-agains-wake/532923/449 "2010-04-03T01:36:29Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > We all have to live by a different set of rules than those which applied “throughout history”. If we don’t, there will be no history, unless our cockroach inheritors shall learn to read. I don’t think that history has demonstrated that at all, especially if you ascribe to what is “supposed to be” the USA’s “kindler, gentler machine gun hand”. Why should Israel be singled out as the nation that’s supposed to buck history and be somehow original or ingenious in its application of how it deals with its lands, indigenous peoples, etc? We can’t keep holding up a microscope to other nations and demand that they “don’t do what we used to do but must do as we do now” just because we’ve been there before. It doesn’t make us any more moral for demanding it to be so, frankly, it makes us look like an entitled teenager demanding that our cellphone be turned back on because we acted badly previously and will not come to grips with our own issues. Its like the glass houses argument writ large. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2010, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finn-agains-wake/532923/450 "2010-04-03T01:40:58Z")
By the way WM, you obnoxious angry idiot, bonus points for joining in the intellectual whoring and, rather than condemning Spoke for defending Carter’s agenda-driven lies with dodges and dishonesty, as soon as I point out that, yeah, it’s quite possible to be a philanthropist and also have prejudices, you decide that I’m secretly implying something. Assuming you’re not just an intellectual prostitute (I know, I know, but I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt) why don’t you come up with another example of a famous philanthropist who is/was also a racist, rebutting spoke’s evasion? Lucy won’t do it because he doesn’t give a fuck about facts and will ignore any abhorrent suggestion, up to and including the genocide of every man woman and child in the Israeli settlements, but he’ll hop to anybody’s defense as long as he thinks it’ll annoy me, including the guy who calls for the genocide of every man woman and child in the Israeli settlements. Honestly, I’m a little shocked at his utter lack of morality or personal integrity, but I’m not sure I should’ve expected much more. Lucy apparently works only on the level of emotion and personal interactions, and wouldn’t know how to honestly debate facts if they bit him on the face. Meanwhile, assuming you can manage intellectual honesty for long enough and you have the ability to call spoke out on his bullshit about how even when facts show that Carter is a bigot, we can’t say that because he’s such a philanthropist? Then, go google or something and find an easier example of a philanthropist who was also prejudiced than Ford. I didn’t feel like spending much time rebutting an obvious dishonest bit of evasion from spoke, maybe you will. Anyways, then, after you’ve had your moment of intellectual honesty, go back to being a partisan whore and condemn yourself for offering such an example, because the only reason to rebut spoke’s dodge has to be to suggest that Carter is not a bigot, as I’ve correctly stated, but an anti-Semite. It’s a nice trap you have set up: allow spoke to dishonestly dodge the issue, or rebut it conclusively and show that philanthropy and prejudice are not mutually exclusive. If his dodge is unchallenged, then his support of agenda-driven lies designed to demonize one side and excuse the other stands (but remember, it’s not partisan intellectual prostitution! Because even if we show a list of dozens of ‘honest errors’ that Carter can and should have caught, spoke can _Just Ask Questions_ and sure, all the lies we’ve seen are all driven by the same agenda to hide the truth, make shit up and demonize one side, but maybe there are some other lies we haven’t seen that demonize the Palesitnians!) Naturally, if his dodge in defense of a pack of lies designed to slander and demonize an entire state is rebutted, then you go into an ignorant frothing spell because someone pointed out an historical example of a person who was both a philanthropist and prejudiced. Damned if you do, damned if you don’t. You are such clever little muppets. Honest, too. Ahem. You poor, stupid schmuck. Some people can think when they get angry. You are evidently not among that group. So fume and sputter incoherently to yourself and then go join the party of folks who think that, in this thread of all places, I’m being _coy_. I have to tell ya, whenever my views of the possible depths of human stupidity are cemented, someone like you comes along to shatter the foundations and start digging yet again. Me, \*in this thread of all places, being coy and reserved, working by suggestion and hinting. \* You are fucking retarded. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2010, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finn-agains-wake/532923/451 "2010-04-03T01:41:45Z")
> [@wmfellows](#): > > The Empire in Africa was chugging along quite nicely, thanks; British rule ended rather differently than the French or Belgians. Precious little ass kicking involved at all, but yes unsustainable. _cough_ India _cough_ Far East _cough_ America _cough_ _wheeze_ > [@](#): > > Rather had the decency to realise that, rather than come up with increasingly tortured justifications. Well, Dan Rather can be quite the twit. > [@elucidator](#): > > I am entirely in my rights to resist a man seeking to bust me in the nose, but gun him down and take his house? Absolutely. The thing to do is dazzle him with witty repartee. Then if all else fails, one may judiciously resort to _the stern admonishment_. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2010, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finn-agains-wake/532923/452 "2010-04-03T01:50:00Z")
I must admit though, I do like this new dodging technique that Lucy has trotted out. Someone points out, for instance, that the UN can authorize sanctions against a nation. The reply “That’s just lunacy! I can stop talking to my neighbor, but the HOA can’t vote to place his home under interdict and prohibit him from leaving or getting any mail!!!” ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2010, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finn-agains-wake/532923/453 "2010-04-03T01:51:36Z")
[**10 million Palestinians, 7 millions of them refugees, 450,000 internally displaced, a new Badil report**](http://www.ccun.org/News/2007/September/15%20n/10%20million%20Palestinians,%207%20millions%20of%20them%20%20refugees,%20450,000%20internally%20displaced,%20a%20new%20Badil%20report.htm) > [@](#): > > \*\*The majority of Palestinian refugees and IDPs were displaced during armed conflict and the first Israeli-Arab war in Palestine. More than 750,000 Palestinians were displaced or expelled between late 1947 and the first half of 1949. Of the roughly 150,000 Palestinians who remained in that part of Palestine that became the state of Israel on 15 May 1948 several tens of thousands were internally displaced. > > Approximately 400,000 Palestinians were displaced, half for a second time, during the 1967 Israeli-Arab war. A smaller number of Palestinians were internally displaced during the war, including Palestinians expelled from the Old City of Jerusalem. Subsequent displacement and expulsion of refugees has continued in 1967 occupied Palestine and in various countries of exile. Today it is estimated that three-quarters of the Palestinian people are displaced. More than half are displaced outside the borders of their historic homeland. > > Denationalization and Dispossession > > The majority of Palestinian refugees are from villages, towns and cities inside 1948 Palestine/Israel. They were denationalized under Israel’s 1952 Nationality Law and prevented from returning to their homes of origin. Internally displaced Palestinians became citizens of Israel but were also prevented from returning to their homes. The government of Israel expropriated land and properties belonging to these refugees and IDPs to be held in perpetuity for Jewish use. > > The remaining Palestinian refugees and IDPs are from 1967 occupied Palestine. A small number of refugees were permitted to return from Jordan in September 1967 under a process facilitated by the Red Cross. All others were prevented from returning to their homes of origin. Israel considers Palestinians in 1967 occupied Palestine as resident aliens. Israel has expropriated or controls for Jewish use approximately two-thirds of Palestinian owned land in these territories. Before 1948 Palestinians owned more than ninety percent of the land in Palestine. Today they own or have access to only ten percent…\*\* More facts, less froth. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2010, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finn-agains-wake/532923/454 "2010-04-03T02:02:59Z")
Fuck 'em, they lost, eh? ---
**Author:** ![wmfellows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c2a13f/32.png) [@wmfellows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wmfellows)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2010, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finn-agains-wake/532923/455 "2010-04-03T02:03:46Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > A good hint, angry-idiot, is that _if you have to make them up, they are your distortions, and not mine._ > I know, who’d a thunk it? Your obsessive bile is also pretty repetitive. > [@](#): > > Again, it’s quite interesting that creatures like you have to lie to claim I’m lying. It’s oh-so-very _meta._ > > [url=[MidEast Web - Population of Palestine](http://www.mideastweb.org/palpop.htm)] > > It’s quite clear that Jewish settlement vastly increased the quality of life for everybody in the Mandate territory. Your mendacity and shrill and irrational partisanship really doesn’t know any bounds, does it? Actually the page (although I should say I am hardly impressed by it) says, rightly that the data regarding the population doesn’t allow for much conclusions at all, but regardless, the economic observation ties improvement to the British Mandate, to quote _“Economic analyses show that by the 1930s the standard of living of Palestinian Arabs was approximately twice that of Arabs in surrounding countries, whereas in Ottoman Turkish times it was lower than in surrounding countries. … Additionally, British activity in building the port of Haifa during the 1920s and in operating it during WW II undoubtedly attracted at least some immigrants… However, since economic conditions did not improve until mandatory times, it is unlikely that the bulk of the immigration occurred under Turkish administration.”_ There is no statement as to this being due to immigration - leaving aside that the underlying citations are to partisan sources (as in particular the sole cite supporting this paragraph and its comparatives, rendering it rather suspect overall). It is by the actual text, without getting into source criticism, far from clear Jewish immigration, versus British investment in infrastructure, etc. drove anything. It is rather evident that you view Magic Jews as a great thing. Rational data analysis say you’re taking nuggets of factoids and stretching them until they squeal to support your preferred ideological story. And again the same kind of story the justifiers of Apartheid liked to spin. Of course, further to that, it is again an observable reality that Jewish settlement ended up in the dispossession of Palestinian Arabs. One would not have the refugee camps if that were not the case. > [@](#): > > Or are you just all _hopped up on stupid-and-angry,_ and you couldn’t take the time to see that I was referring to the Jewish migration to Palestine in the past tense, not the Israeli settlement of the West Bank, which would be present tense? Ironic - but then you do like to play mirror-rhetoric games. In fact you’re the bilious maladjusted creature who dragged in Ottoman > [@](#): > > You really are a ignorant little vile shit, aren’t you? > Global technological advances of the sort you claim didn’t exist during the Jewish settlement in the Mandate, it was indeed the influx of Jews that raised the standard of living. Really now, your incoherent rage is getting the better of you: Global technological advances are by their nature **global**. They most certainly “existed” as one sees the rise in living standards across the 20th century - indeed it was one of the justifications, insincere as it was, of colonial rule that the White Man was bringing sanitation, infrastructure, modern institutional organisation. Didn’t exist… what a delicious bit of idiocy from you. The British Mandate in fact was investing in modern port infrastructure, proper courts, etc. But of course FinnAgain the Bilious Maladjusted Ranter can’t acknowledge Perfidious Albion, why we were almost running Nazi Death Camps, yes that’s it. But of course this allows your distortion - habitual on your part of course - of my observation to channel the conversation, as my observation was **comparative** , noting that standards of living rose across the region, without the Magic Jews of FinnAgain’s fetid agitprop, based on investment. As such, tying improvements to Jewish immigration as such, versus global improvements in technology is … mendacious spin. The counter-factual would be no Jewish immigration, one would, by the example of other countries in the region, would have seen similar effects. Of course, again, this is exactly the kind of argument I’ve heard from Boers to support Apartheid (and suffers from the same flaw, denying agency to the native) ---
**Author:** ![wmfellows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c2a13f/32.png) [@wmfellows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wmfellows)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2010, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finn-agains-wake/532923/456 "2010-04-03T02:14:59Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > India Cough away mate, India wasn’t “asskicking” it was Gandi winning by moral suasion. The reluctance to go was because it was such damned good business. > [@](#): > > _cough_ Far East _cough_ Yes, please do cite where the British army got into trouble in the Far East. > [@](#): > > America _cough_ _wheeze_ What about America and what possible relevance does your 1781 treaty have to the events of the 1950s and 1960s, in particular Africa and the Empire that rather grew larger after the rebellion. > [@FoieGrasIsEvil](#): > > Why should Israel be singled out as the nation that’s supposed to buck history and be somehow original or ingenious in its application of how it deals with its lands, indigenous peoples, etc? How is Israel being singled out? > [@](#): > > We can’t keep holding up a microscope to other nations and demand that they “don’t do what we used to do but must do as we do now” just because we’ve been there before. The same rules that are applied to Israel were used in criticising the Rhodesian regime, the Apartheid regime, in ongoing criticism of China regarding Tibet (which again has at least actively given citizenship to the territory), and other colonised / conquered territories. In what fashion is this different than Israel in terms of standards (or effectiveness for that matter)? > [@](#): > > It doesn’t make us any more moral for demanding it to be so, frankly, it makes us look like an entitled teenager demanding that our cellphone be turned back on because we acted badly previously and will not come to grips with our own issues . Bollocks, same standards that led to the European colonial powers giving up the colonies. > [@FinnAgain](#): > > By the way WM, you obnoxious angry idiot Boring. Repetitive and without content. > [@](#): > > bonus points for joining in the intellectual whoring and, rather than condemning Spoke for defending Carter’s agenda-driven lies with dodges and dishonesty, I have nothing to do with American presidents, but I do see your loathsome form of smearing often enough to get the Ford implication. Deny as you want, it was fairly transparent in the context. Really, you do need therapy. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2010, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finn-agains-wake/532923/457 "2010-04-03T02:20:33Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Fuck 'em, they lost, eh? Well, yes. They’re not getting Israel back. There probably is going to be some Palestinian state eventually in the West Bank, but all the Palestinians who used to live in Israel proper, they and their descendants are not going to be allowed back. The stuff that happened in '67 might be reversed, but the stuff that happened in '49 isn’t; not unless Israel gets invaded and its population wiped out. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2010, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finn-agains-wake/532923/458 "2010-04-03T02:33:58Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > More facts You might try citing some then. Just a thought. You have, though, gone to demonstrate the dishonesty that anti-Israel crowd stoops to when they declare that not just refugees, but their descendants for all time are also “refugees”. By that standard, America is filled to the brim with “refugees”. Hell, I’m a Russian-German refugee myself. I guess. I wonder what reparations I’m entitled to? Of course, with characteristic intellectual dishonesty, you’re not curious about the all the Jews who were kicked out or Arab nations circa 1948. They don’t have that ol’ time refugee cred. Unsurprisingly, Badil’s claims are based on fiction. Nobody, at all, who has studied the history of the region thinks that Palestinians owned 90% of the area. The fact is that most of it was Miri or Waste Land, and very little was Mulk. It’s telling that they’re simply making stuff up to support their claims. Of course, Badil ‘forgets’ to mention that under the laws that Israel was obliged to uphold, those who cannot continue to cultivate Miri land have no claim to it any longer. Likewise, they are lying when they claim that there is “Jewish only” land in Israel. Much like previous lies that there are “Jewish only roads”, it’s just a smear. It is, of course, a standard deception. [ > [@](#): > > Statements that Israel refuses to sell state-owned land to Israeli Arabs are extremely misleading, since, as stated above, such land is not sold to Israeli Jews either, but is instead leased out by the ILA and is equally available to all citizens of Israel. > > The availability of state-owned land to Israeli Arabs is true not just in theory, but also in practice. For example, about half of the land farmed by Israeli-Arabs is leased from the ILA. (Legal Status of the Arabs in Israel, Westview Press, p. 66, 1990) > > Moreover, sometimes Israeli Arabs receive more favorable terms from the ILA than do Israeli Jews. Thus, for example, in new Jewish communities near Beersheva the ILA charged $24,000 for a capital lease on a quarter of an acre, while at the same time Bedouin families in the nearby community of Rahat paid only $150 for the same amount of land. (Israel’s Dilemma, Shapolsky Publications, p. 97, 1989) > > In another case a Jewish citizen applied to the ILA to lease land in a new Bedouin community under the same favorable, highly subsidized terms available to the Bedouins. > > When the ILA refused to lease him land in the community under any circumstances, he sued. In Avitan v. Israel Land Administration (HC 528/88) the High Court ruled that ILA discrimination against the Jewish citizen Avitan was justified as affirmative action for Bedouin citizens. (Legal Status of the Arabs in Israel, p. 81) ]([BACKGROUNDER: Land, the Palestinian Authority, and Israel | CAMERA](http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_context=7&x_issue=5&x_article=39)) > [@wmfellows](#): > > Actually the page (although I should say I am hardly impressed by it) says, rightly that the data regarding the population doesn’t allow for much conclusions at all No, angry-idiot, it states that it doesn’t allow firm conclusions about _demographics_. You are lying. It does indeed point out that Jews raised the standard of living. And independent British findings confirmed it. It’s the same reason that all the Arab population increases we can track were substantially larger in the areas with the most Jewish immigration. By the way, of course you’re not impressed with mideastweb, it’s one of the most neutral and objective sites about the conflict. It doesn’t confirm your biases or your prejudices, you must hate it. Anyways, some of the actual facts that show you’re an ignorant yapping ball o’ rage: [ > [@](#): > > Industrial enterprises before the War and subsequent increase.— Of existing industrial establishments 1,236, with a total capital in excess of one million pounds were in existence before the War. Since the War therefore the number of establishments had in-creased up to the date of the Industrial Census by 2,269 or 183 per cent, and the capital by two and a half million pounds, or 250 per cent. This is a very material increase and it is almost entirely due to the importation of Jewish capital and the immigration of a Jewish population. ]([MidEastWeb The Report of Sir John Hope Simpson, 1930](http://www.mideastweb.org/hopesimpson.htm)) > [@wmfellows](#): > > l the underlying citations are to partisan sources No, you’re just lying some more. Anybody who clicks through will find that although certain statements are hosted on a (gasp!) pro-Israel site, they’re all accurately sourced and cited. Nor is basic history “suspect”. You’re just ignorant and acting only on your biases. Yeah, from such a perspective I’m sure that anything which contradicts your bias seems strange and scary. Try again, my enraged little mental defective. > [@wmfellows](#): > > Of course, further to that, it is again an observable reality that Jewish settlement ended up in the dispossession of Palestinian Arabs. No, that’s an observable agenda-driven deception of yours. Jewish settlement would have not led to war if the Arabs hadn’t declared war. The Arab war caused dispossession. There would’ve been two states for decades now if not for that. > [@wmfellows](#): > > As such, tying improvements to Jewish immigration as such, versus global improvements in technology is … mendacious spin. Again, I know you’re a vile little turd of a human being, but is it so hard to find out wtf you’re talking about before you vomit on me? And seriously, quit the dishonesty. ‘Global technological advances’ _existed in all of the neighboring states, and the standing of living around the Jewish immigrants was still twice as high, you angry ignorant moron._ Jewish immigration and investment is the only differing factor, and is the reason for the economic prosperity of the region. Seriously, as you are evidently both retarded, willfully ignorant and suffering from roid rage, I think I’ll just let you go be stupid and angry in a corner. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2010, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finn-agains-wake/532923/459 "2010-04-03T02:39:34Z")
Probably a good idea, Finn. I think this thread has shown everyone for who they are, and they really don’t see any reason to be ashamed of it. Like cats, you know? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2010, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finn-agains-wake/532923/460 "2010-04-03T02:49:24Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > There probably is going to be some Palestinian state eventually in the West Bank There is no reason left to believe that either the Israeli government or the people that elected it are willing to let that happen at present, is there? The point was that “Fuck 'em, they lost” is being used by many as an excuse for refusing to recognize that, if they’re going to be even in the West Bank, they’re going to be Israel’s neighbors for a long, long time, and that the continuing effects of the relationship’s past need to be addressed if the relationship is ever going to be a neighborly one. **E-Sabbath** , he’s stormed off just like that a number of times before, but couldn’t make it even 24 hours before returning, fully reloaded. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finn-agains-wake/532923.md?page=22) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finn-agains-wake/532923.md?page=24)