# Finn Again's Wake **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 18, 2010, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finn-agains-wake/532923 "2010-03-18T19:10:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 24
**Author:** ![wmfellows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c2a13f/32.png) [@wmfellows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wmfellows)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2010, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finn-agains-wake/532923/461 "2010-04-03T02:54:40Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > No, angry-idiot, Your lack of self-awareness really is so terribly profound. > [@](#): > > it states that it doesn’t allow firm conclusions about _demographics_. You are lying. Yes, precisely, and the data presented are all demographics, with a passing and > [@](#): > > It does indeed point out that Jews raised the standard of living. No, it does not. It includes the economic comment I quoted, with all the issues I already noted. > [@](#): > > And independent British findings confirmed it. When you decide to discuss proper economic history from non-partisan sources, an actual discussion may be had, but as you’re not so capable… > [@](#): > > It’s the same reason that all the Arab population increases we can track were substantially larger in the areas with the most Jewish immigration. The areas receiving immigration are of course the most economically productive areas. Logical fallacy there, your stretching of fact. > [@](#): > > By the way, of course you’re not impressed with mideastweb, it’s one of the most neutral and objective sites about the conflict. It’s an attempt, it also contains such gems as asserting bald face that the Mandate was created to establish a Jewish homeland (whereas the facts are rather more ambiguous). > [@](#): > > It doesn’t confirm your biases or your prejudices, you must hate it. Anyways, some of the actual facts that show you’re an ignorant yapping ball o’ rage: Again your lack of self awareness is most impressive, rare to find such an example of continuous unbridled bile and irrational hatred. > [@](#): > > No, you’re just lying some more. Anybody who clicks through will find that although certain statements are hosted on a (gasp!) pro-Israel site, they’re all accurately sourced and cited. Nor is basic history “suspect”. You’re just ignorant and acting only on your biases. Yeah, from such a perspective I’m sure that anything which contradicts your bias seems strange and scary. > Try again, my enraged little mental defective. I do like how any disagreement with the Chosen Story is lying. And any criticism is lying. No real point in anything resembling rational discussion with someone as profoundly disfunctional as you. > [@](#): > > No, that’s an observable agenda-driven deception of yours. Jewish settlement would have not led to war if the Arabs hadn’t declared war. The Arab war caused dispossession. There would’ve been two states for decades now if not for that. Repetitive to note perhaps but difference of analysis is not deception of course. As before the war the cycle of tit-for-tat violence was already on-going, I rather regard this as mere fantasy. Of course in the FinnAgain and general Apologist world, there is only the Arab Devils to blame. > [@](#): > > And seriously, quit the dishonesty. ‘Global technological advances’ _existed in all of the neighboring states, and the standing of living around the Jewish immigrants was still twice as high, you angry ignorant moron._ Jewish immigration and investment is the only differing factor, and is the reason for the economic prosperity of the region. You do seem to be rather impaired in the area of rational discussion and reading skills. My observation, (not your distortion) was comparative and relative to the necessity of settlers. Now leaving aside your assertion of the as yet questionable data with respect to living standards (and my noting already the fallacioius assertion of mono-causal difference), the purpose of my note relative to global technological improvements was and is really very simple, to highlight your fallacious argument relative to living standards and tying this to Jewish immigration. > [@](#): > > Seriously, as you are evidently both retarded, willfully ignorant and suffering from roid rage, I think I’ll just let you go be stupid and angry in a corner. Amusing you accusing others of roid rage… really amusing. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2010, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finn-agains-wake/532923/462 "2010-04-03T03:18:42Z")
> [@spoke-](#): > > Incidentally **Finn** , since this is your pitting after all, have you ever been checked for [Asperger Syndrome](http://www.naturopathyonline.com/PatientRoles/asperger.htm)? Given his writing style, I would have said Tourette’s, but you may be right. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2010, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finn-agains-wake/532923/463 "2010-04-03T03:20:43Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > There is no reason left to believe that either the Israeli government or the people that elected it are willing to let that happen at present, is there? The current Israeli government? Probably not. Bibi would have problems with his cabinet, and I don’t think he’s really in love with the idea of a Palestinian state. But even he hasn’t explicitly ruled it out, and has, in fact, publicly endorsed the idea of a Palestinian state. But, no, I don’t think as long as he’s PM, you’re going to see much progress on peace negotiations. As to the question of the people that elected it willing to let that happen, remember that the 2009 elections were really close, and Kadima actually won more seats than Likud. Part of the reason for Likud’s win, though, was because of Olmert’s corruption scandals and the effect it had on public opinion of Kadima. I think there was the idea that Livni just wasn’t experienced enough to be PM. But I think another thing had to do with Israeli frustration over the results of the Gaza withdrawal. The withdrawal from Gaza was supposed to contribute to peace, but as soon as the withdrawal happened, Hamas started shooting rockets into Israel, and Israel invaded to stop it. So, I think there was the attitude at that time, “Hey, we tried for peace and look at what the Palestinians did to us.” So, I think there was Israeli frustration with the peace process, and in 2009, they weren’t all that interested in a Palestinian state because, hey, what’s to say the same thing wouldn’t happen in the West Bank as Gaza. But that mood can change, and I think it will over time, as long as Israelis feel secure and don’t feel that a Palestinian state will threaten them or shoot rockets at Israeli cities and towns. ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2010, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finn-agains-wake/532923/464 "2010-04-03T03:22:09Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > There is no reason left to believe that either the Israeli government or the people that elected it are willing to let that happen at present, is there? > > The point was that “Fuck 'em, they lost” is being used by many as an excuse for refusing to recognize that, if they’re going to be even in the West Bank, they’re going to be Israel’s neighbors for a long, long time, and that the continuing effects of the relationship’s past need to be addressed if the relationship is ever going to be a neighborly one. > > **E-Sabbath** , he’s stormed off just like that a number of times before, but couldn’t make it even 24 hours before returning, fully reloaded. But “fuck 'em, they lost” doesn’t necessarily apply to the Palestinians, does it? I mean, if we’re judging based on the 1967 war and all, Israel was the defender not the aggressor, and there were other established nations involved in inciting that conflict. I think the fact that other neighboring Arab nations that either outwardly or inwardly desire the destruction of Israel, and simultaneously trumpet the Palestinian cause while doing bollocks about it except when its politically convenient are missing the point, which is that their hypocrisy is exposed. Nobody wants the Palestinians, it seems, even though they are Arab “brothers” to them. Its convenient to mention that brotherhood when it serves their purposes, other times, not. In any event, I don’t see any groundswell of neighboring Arab nations looking to take in a few hundred thousand Palestinian refugees. Why is that? How can these countries be so beholden to the plight of the Palestinians yet do nothing about it other than plot wars against Israel? ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2010, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finn-agains-wake/532923/465 "2010-04-03T03:22:12Z")
> [@E-Sabbath](#): > > Probably a good idea, Finn. If true, I agree. Probably one of the few he’s ever had. But here’s betting we’ll see plenty more spittle coming out of The Deranged One. > [@](#): > > _I think this thread has shown everyone for who they are, and they really don’t see any reason to be ashamed of it._ Indeed it has – and it exactly shows the incredibly biased thinking behind the “Israel can Do No Wrong” brigade. For shame indeed. > [@](#): > > _Like cats, you know?_ More like mules if you ask me. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2010, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finn-agains-wake/532923/466 "2010-04-03T03:26:21Z")
> [@E-Sabbath](#): > > I think this thread has shown everyone for who they are, and they really don’t see any reason to be ashamed of it. > > Like cats, you know? I’d like to find a better animal, as cats are pretty regal, poised and clean, all things considered. But yeah, most have shown their true colors. It’s kinda disturbing that there are people like that, but I guess some people are just very, very sick. However, I will point out another lie at the moment. Facts shouldn’t be so abused and I’d hate for anything reading along to be tricked into error. > [@](#): > > it also contains such gems as asserting bald face that the Mandate was created to establish a Jewish homeland [ > [@](#): > > ART. 4. An appropriate Jewish agency shall be recognised as a public body for the purpose of advising and co-operating with the Administration of Palestine in such economic, social and other matters as may affect the establishment of the Jewish national home and the interests of the Jewish population in Palestine, and, subject always to the control of the Administration to assist and take part in the development of the country. > > The Zionist organization, so long as its organization and constitution are in the opinion of the Mandatory appropriate, shall be recognised as such agency. It shall take steps in consultation with His Britannic Majesty’s Government to secure the co-operation of all Jews who are willing to assist in the establishment of the Jewish national home. ]([The British Mandate for Palestine](http://www.mideastweb.org/mandate.htm)) ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2010, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finn-agains-wake/532923/467 "2010-04-03T03:32:24Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > As to the question of the people that elected it willing to let that happen, remember that the 2009 elections were really close, and Kadima actually won more seats than Likud. Fair point there. Cause for hope, anyway. > [@](#): > > The withdrawal from Gaza was supposed to contribute to peace, but as soon as the withdrawal happened, Hamas started shooting rockets into Israel, and Israel invaded to stop it. So, I think there was the attitude at that time, “Hey, we tried for peace and look at what the Palestinians did to us.” Given the bulldozer-happy way the occupation had been run, what should have been expected? The cycle of blame-throwing continues. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2010, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finn-agains-wake/532923/468 "2010-04-03T03:34:23Z")
> [@FoieGrasIsEvil](#): > > In any event, I don’t see any groundswell of neighboring Arab nations looking to take in a few hundred thousand Palestinian refugees. Why is that? How can these countries be so beholden to the plight of the Palestinians yet do nothing about it other than plot wars against Israel? Where the fuck do you think the Palestinian’s homes are? ☹ ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2010, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finn-agains-wake/532923/469 "2010-04-03T03:45:27Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Where the fuck do you think the Palestinian’s homes are? ☹ In Palestine? An area many of them want to migrate from but are denied immigration to their supposed Arab nation bretheren? ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2010, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finn-agains-wake/532923/470 "2010-04-03T03:58:05Z")
> [@FoieGrasIsEvil](#): > > In Palestine? An area many of them want to migrate from but are denied immigration to their supposed Arab nation bretheren? Would you want to migrate from your _home_ if someone took it by overwhelming force? Or would you try to resist the takeover by any means available? ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2010, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finn-agains-wake/532923/471 "2010-04-03T03:58:52Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Where the fuck do you think the Palestinian’s homes are? ☹ No, he’s making a fair point. When the Palestinians fled Israel to neighboring countries, those countries (Egypt, Jordan, Lebanon, etc), those countries really didn’t do anything for them. They could have said to them, “We’ll give you citizenship if you want it. We’ll help you find jobs and assimilate into society.” Instead, they kept them at gun point in refugee camps, and forced them to live in squalor, encouraging a kind of simmering rage against Israel, for the purpose of using them as puppets against the Israelis. There’s an old joke that Israel’s neighbors would fight Israel to the last Palestinian, and there’s a lot of truth to that. Contrasting that, a lot of Jewish refugees fled their homes in Arab countries. Countries like the North African countries, Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, Yemen, and so on, had large Jewish populations that fled those countries in and around 1949 and came to Israel. Israel could have done what its neighbors did. It could have put them in refugee camps, and encouraged them to be violent against their home countries. They didn’t do that, though. The Arab Jews got assimilated into Israeli society, and today, they and their descendants make up about half the population of Israel. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2010, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finn-agains-wake/532923/472 "2010-04-03T04:20:07Z")
What country do you think the West Bank and Gaza are in? You know, the place where you think the nation of Palestine will someday exist? “A fair point” indeed. If anyone, anyone should be able to understand being driven out of homes, it should be Israeli Jews. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2010, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finn-agains-wake/532923/473 "2010-04-03T04:23:56Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > No, he’s making a fair point. When the Palestinians fled Israel to neighboring countries, those countries (Egypt, Jordan, Lebanon, etc), those countries really didn’t do anything for them. They could have said to them, “We’ll give you citizenship if you want it. We’ll help you find jobs and assimilate into society.” > > Instead, they kept them at gun point in refugee camps, and forced them to live in squalor, encouraging a kind of simmering rage against Israel, for the purpose of using them as puppets against the Israelis. There’s an old joke that Israel’s neighbors would fight Israel to the last Palestinian, and there’s a lot of truth to that. > > Contrasting that, a lot of Jewish refugees fled their homes in Arab countries. Countries like the North African countries, Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, Yemen, and so on, had large Jewish populations that fled those countries in and around 1949 and came to Israel. Israel could have done what its neighbors did. It could have put them in refugee camps, and encouraged them to be violent against their home countries. They didn’t do that, though. The Arab Jews got assimilated into Israeli society, and today, they and their descendants make up about half the population of Israel. Question. In your mind was there ever a Palestine, and if so, why should Palestinians abandon their Homeland? ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2010, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finn-agains-wake/532923/474 "2010-04-03T04:56:31Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > What country do you think the West Bank and Gaza are in? You know, the place where you think the nation of Palestine will someday exist? The West Bank and Gaza aren’t in any country. They’re stateless territory occupied by Israel that were formerly in Jordan and Egypt, respectively. Prior to that, they were in the British mandate of Palestine, and prior to that in the Ottoman _villayet_\* of Beirut and the Special District of Jerusalem. Before that, they were part of the Sultanate of Egypt. Before that, they were part of the Crusader Kingdom of Jerusalem, and before that the various Islamic caliphates. Before that, they were part of the Byzantine Empire, and before that, the Eastern half of the Roman Empire. Before that, they were ruled by Herod the Great, and before him, the Hasmonean dynasty. Before that, they were ruled by the various successor states of Alexandria, the Seleucids and Ptolemies. Before that, of course, they were ruled by Alexander, and before that, the Persian empire. Before that they were ruled by the neo-Babylonian empire. Before that, most of it was ruled by Assyria, and before that, most of the West Bank was ruled by the northern kingdom of Israel (the Samarian kingdom), and before that, if you believe the bible, the unified kingdom of David. Before that, it was ruled by various Israelite tribes, and before that by a bunch of Canaanite kingdoms. The area that would become the Gaza Strip was a confederation of Philistine city states. I think there was some more Egyptian control over the region before that, but I’m not entirely sure when it comes to the West Bank. Gaza was ruled by the Egyptians before the Philistines invaded, though. Hope that helps. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2010, 5:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finn-agains-wake/532923/475 "2010-04-03T05:07:30Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > Question. In your mind was there ever a Palestine, and if so, why should Palestinians abandon their Homeland? There was a British mandate of Palestine, and before that, a Roman province of Palestine, but never an independent state of Palestine. As for Palestinian nationalism, that’s a complicated question. If the question is “why should Palestinians abandon their Homeland?”, I’d say they shouldn’t. But the fact is, that some of them in what’s now Israel proper did, and the ones that did aren’t going to be able to come back. The ones in Israel proper that didn’t are Israeli citizens now. Most of the Palestinians from the West Bank and Gaza still live in the West Bank and Gaza, and most of the Palestinians in refugee camps are from Israel proper. For that matter, the Iraqi Jews shouldn’t have had to abandon their homeland, either (there was a Jewish population in Iraq since ancient times), but they did because the choice was flight or death, and they’re not going to get the chance to go back either. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2010, 5:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finn-agains-wake/532923/476 "2010-04-03T05:38:37Z")
> [@wmfellows](#): > > Cough away mate, India wasn’t “asskicking” it was Gandi winning by moral suasion. The reluctance to go was because it was such damned good business. I’ve always wondered about that… What would have happened, if it were not the British? What if it had been a more ruthless country/government? In some countries, people have “vanished” for much less. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2010, 9:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finn-agains-wake/532923/477 "2010-04-03T09:11:00Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > ``` > If the question is "why should Palestinians abandon their Homeland?", I'd say they shouldn't. But the fact is, that some of them in what's now Israel proper did, and the ones that did aren't going to be able to come back. > > ``` Why not? It’s acceptable to invite jews back to their homeland from all over the world - ie. where they fled to after previous “defences” of the place they so love went a bit flat - so why aren’t the conquered Palestinians being encouraged back? ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2010, 9:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finn-agains-wake/532923/478 "2010-04-03T09:19:57Z")
missed the edit window. ps. And I thought jews more than anyone would be aware that home is wherever you lay your kippah. Do they really need to own the physical property of their history to feel a part of it? I know I don’t know what it feels like to define my identity by the past so completely, but tbh, I can’t say I really want to, if Finn is the end product. ---
**Author:** ![wmfellows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c2a13f/32.png) [@wmfellows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wmfellows)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2010, 10:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finn-agains-wake/532923/479 "2010-04-03T10:54:48Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > I’ve always wondered about that… > > What would have happened, if it were not the British? What if it had been a more ruthless country/government? In some countries, people have “vanished” for much less. In India? I don’t know. The Raj existed for so long it’s hard to disentangle it from purely domestic history. I could imagine, though in an alternative history, a trajectory like China, probably warring states importing arms from Europe and by the late 19th century being in a sad way like the Middle Kingdom. Then maybe imported ideology like Communism being the basis for a series of anti-feudal revolutions, and then maybe something like China today. Ah wait, I see your question, sorry, if British rule had resembled say Portuguese or Belgian (or French) colonial rule? Doubtless Gandi would have been vanished (or exiled in French style to some god-forsaken island). And that would have kicked Indian independence down the road 10-20 years, but in a process looking rather more like Algeria or say the Portuguese African colonies. And that would have been a nasty disaster making the Partition look like a walk in the bloody park. I note that the Portuguese with hardly any resources (as compared to either France or UK), out of sheer nastiness, kept their colonies until **1975**. European decolonisation of the 1950s through 1960s, in particular the British approach was something of a combination of moral awakening that it was plain wrong, that the justifications were just plain wrong, and self-interest as far-sightedness said that while then one could hold on, the day was coming and it if not done now, it would come with communist revolutions and the like. > [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > The West Bank and Gaza aren’t in any country. They’re stateless territory occupied by Israel that were formerly in Jordan and Egypt, respectively. … > > Hope that helps. It’s fine, but when it comes down to it, such histories tell us pretty much fuck all about modern nationalism. There was never a nation of Slovakia before the modern one, but few people amuse themselves by questioning Slovak identity. Or Slovene. I know you were just responding to the form of the question, but I rather think this sort of “unto the Middle Ages” reasoning for modern political polities is nothing but 19th century romantic claptrap. > [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > No, he’s making a fair point. When the Palestinians fled Israel to neighboring countries, those countries (Egypt, Jordan, Lebanon, etc), those countries really didn’t do anything for them. They could have said to them, “We’ll give you citizenship if you want it. We’ll help you find jobs and assimilate into society.” Yes, that is true. However, I rather think this is trotted out - in comparison with the Israeli welcoming of Arab Jews - as a comparison that at its fundament is not entirely honest. Insofar as the Arab position was that the refugees should be entitled to reclaim their lost homes, lands, go home - and in fact that seems to be their (the refugees and their descendants) primary desire, rather than moving out, it would be playing into Israel’s hands to do so. Or in another way, from the perspective of 1948 or 1967 (versus today) and as a refugee, undermining your “right to return” is not a welcome and helpful act. You can easily believe that this will write into stone the loss of your house, your land, your rights as you see them. All quite well and good for Israelis, from the **perspective of the refugee** not well and good. I rather think that pretending this perspective is not on its face logical and from the point of view of the other side, valid and consistent with both national and populist aims, puts a spin on the facts. Of course, it’s an utterly failed approach, and was never going to succeed, but I hardly see it is a fully valid criticism. > [@](#): > > Instead, they kept them at gun point in refugee camps, and forced them to live in squalor, encouraging a kind of simmering rage against Israel, for the purpose of using them as puppets against the Israelis. There’s an old joke that Israel’s neighbors would fight Israel to the last Palestinian, and there’s a lot of truth to that. Yes, very valid joke, at the same time strikes me that your presentation of the camps is partial and partisan. It seems pretty clear that a very good portion of the refugees were (are) not mere puppets of the invidious Arab neighbours, but had and have their own generated rage about losing their lands. A bit precious to put this entirely on the neighbours (without denying that in addition to Palestinian groups own desire not to knuckle under, Jordan and Lebanon did their level best by force, suasion and crook to keep the Palestinians not integrated). Pushing the whole deal off on the neighbours is not a balanced picture. > [@](#): > > Contrasting that, a lot of Jewish refugees fled their homes in Arab countries. Countries like the North African countries, Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, Yemen, and so on, had large Jewish populations that fled those countries in and around 1949 and came to Israel. Israel could have done what its neighbors did. It could have put them in refugee camps, and encouraged them to be violent against their home countries. They didn’t do that, though. The Arab Jews got assimilated into Israeli society, and today, they and their descendants make up about half the population of Israel. Come on, it was in Israel’s national interest to bring in as many of those refugees as possible and integrate them in as well as possible Rather different interest, either from the Palestinian refugee (who again in 48 and 67 could very rationally see “integrating” into Jordan or Lebanon as giving up his rights in the land he felt wrongly expelled from) or the neighbouring Arab state. The contrast is rather disingenuous, since Israel’s interest was NOT a return of refugees (and the economic immigrants it also encouraged from the French colonies). **Apples and Oranges.** Of course Israel did (and this is entirely rational, so I am not presenting this as a critique) encourage a mythology of “empty lands” and certainly has never neglected promoting harbouring a grudge (an entirely reasonable grudge mind you) against the Arabs who expelled the Arab Jews. Serves national interest. I stress again, I don’t see Israel’s actions (inside the 1967 borders, post 48 expulsions) as being anything but rational and natural. > [@FoieGrasIsEvil](#): > > I think the fact that other neighboring Arab nations that either outwardly or inwardly desire the destruction of Israel, and simultaneously trumpet the Palestinian cause while doing bollocks about it except when its politically convenient are missing the point, which is that their hypocrisy is exposed. What pray tell would Jordan be doing beyond what it did? From their point of view, reconquering the territory was supporting the Palestinian cause. Given their resources, what would they or Lebanon do differently to support the cause (the cause as it is seen from the Palestinian point of view)? > [@](#): > > In any event, I don’t see any groundswell of neighboring Arab nations looking to take in a few hundred thousand Palestinian refugees. Why is that? How can these countries be so beholden to the plight of the Palestinians yet do nothing about it other than plot wars against Israel? Eh? They did take in Palestinian refugees. hundreds of thousands. In any case, it’s been 30+ years since the last war, so the plotting thing doesn’t make much sense as a current criticism. ---
**Author:** ![wmfellows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c2a13f/32.png) [@wmfellows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wmfellows)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2010, 11:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finn-agains-wake/532923/480 "2010-04-03T11:17:53Z")
> [@wmfellows](#): > > Come on, it was in Israel’s national interest to bring in as many of those refugees as possible and integrate them in as well as possible Rather different interest, either from the Palestinian refugee (who again in 48 and 67 could very rationally see “integrating” into Jordan or Lebanon as giving up his rights in the land he felt wrongly expelled from) or the neighbouring Arab state. > > The contrast is rather disingenuous, since Israel’s interest was NOT a return of refugees (and the economic immigrants it also encouraged from the French colonies). **Apples and Oranges.** > > Of course Israel did (and this is entirely rational, so I am not presenting this as a critique) encourage a mythology of “empty lands” and certainly has never neglected promoting harbouring a grudge (an entirely reasonable grudge mind you) against the Arabs who expelled the Arab Jews. Serves national interest. > > I stress again, I don’t see Israel’s actions (inside the 1967 borders, post 48 expulsions) as being anything but rational and natural. Occurs to me that this needs clarification. I meant above that the alignment of national interests in the case of the two refugee flows were inverted. Since it was in Israeli interest to integrate as fundamentlly as possible its incoming Jewish refugees from Iraq, Egypt, Yemen, etc, to solidify its claim and control to territory, and populate the territory with own citizens (and discourage anyone from considering a return if it were possible), one would expect on a rational policy basis different actions than the Arab states. Indeed looking at their interests from the perspective of the facts of the time, both sides policies make perfect sense. They were not working towards the same goals, so making the comparison is illogical, comparing apples to oranges. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finn-agains-wake/532923.md?page=23) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finn-agains-wake/532923.md?page=25)