# Finn Again's Wake **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 18, 2010, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finn-agains-wake/532923 "2010-03-18T19:10:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 30
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2010, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finn-agains-wake/532923/581 "2010-04-06T19:49:15Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > I’ve written over 12,000 posts and have yet to hurl any racial slurs. You might want to think about the possibility that your ratio is still way above the racial-slur-median. Yes, but unless you are suggesting that I go elsewhere to have my racist rants, it doesn’t really represent the actions of a racist. Okay, maybe I’m just a tidgy bit racist, but I’d wager that applies to most human beings. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2010, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finn-agains-wake/532923/582 "2010-04-06T19:54:02Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > I’ve written over 12,000 posts and have yet to hurl any racial slurs. You might want to think about the possibility that your ratio is still way above the racial-slur-median. Reminds me of the old joke: “I worked as a fireman for over twenty years, but do random people in the street call me “fire-fighting hero”? No! \*But get caught fucking ONE goat … \*” 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2010, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finn-agains-wake/532923/583 "2010-04-06T20:03:24Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > You can’t claim that if Jew disagrees with your politics and/or doesn’t criticize Israel often enough that he’s a potential traitor who has to be watched, and then claim it’s a strawman for someone to remember what you’ve said. So where did I say that, liar? Strawman. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2010, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finn-agains-wake/532923/584 "2010-04-06T20:13:13Z")
Seriously spoke, why is it that racists like you can’t just admit it? You JAQ Off about the danger of Jews, or immigrants, or whatever, and then when you’re called on the carpet all of a sudden you play coy. Why is that? Serious question. As for where you said it, I suppose I could play that game with you… you trolled Jack into quoting your own words, words that you were denying you’d ever said. And even when he cited your own words, you continued to call him a liar. I’m not really sure that playing such games with a racist such as yourself really serves any purpose. Yes, you did say that only the ‘good Jews’, those who criticized Israel ‘enough’, were above suspicion. But that anybody like me, who dared disagree with you and point out how your claims were factually inaccurate and based on logical fallacies, was a suspected Traitor Jew. You went as far as to lie and claim that I never criticize Israel, and so that anybody like me who must be “rabid” in their support for Israel (code for “not accepting Spoke’s bullshit”) is a potential traitor. Then you lied and said you hadn’t made any such claim, you were merely saying that someone who engaged in a behavior cannot tolerate it. :rolleyes: Anyways, enough of your racism as you’re going down the tried and true "I’m not an anti-Semite, but we have to be on our guard for potential Jewish Treachery " path… Here, why don’t you (fucking finally) address your factual claims. You know, as you have a problem with people who don’t post substance. > [@](#): > > Not that I question your intellectual honesty spoke (of course), but please elaborate on exactly what you’re opposed to. > > Is it the ability of people in general to own land, so any apartment I’ve ever lived in is my property? Or is it simply the ability for states to set land ownership policy such that some land is state-owned, so if I put up a tent in Yellowstone, that federal land would become mine? And as you’re undoubtedly intellectually honest and playing fair, would you also say that the Palestinians who privately owned land were doing wrong since the Ottoman land codes called for it, or was it just the Palestinians who didn’t own land who were being wronged but those who did were fine even if it was inhabited by other Palestinians who were their tenants? > > And, likewise, as I’m sure you’re intellectually honest and factually knowledgeable, please identify the demographics and valid land owners (ignoring the actual laws if you’d wish) starting at any point at all during the last 1,000 years, from the Ottomans to the Mamluk kingdom and the Crusader kingdom before that, and the Fatimid kingdom before that. Please identify at which point their land rights were stripped. Thanks. And: > [@](#): > > Still not going to touch the facts, are you Spoke? > Let’s start real slow. > > -You show how Carter so continually makes ‘factual errors’ that are so very easy to correct. Some of which he knew weren’t true at the same time he said them. Exlain how they are honest, good faith mistakes and not lies. > -If you cannot do that, explain how his lies all, and without exception, go to prop up his narrative that Israel is a warmongering aggressor that wasn’t nothing to do with peace, and the lies do so innocently and by coincidence. > -If you cannot do that, explain why his agenda-driven lies, that evince a desire to repeat Hamas fictions even when he knows they are untrue and to lie about Israel in order to demonize them, don’t demonstrate that he is obstinately and intolerantly dedicated to his opinions and prejudices, and they are all against Israel, and thus he is bigoted against Israel and uses lies to support his bigotry. > > Come on, this is not difficult. Support your argument. Mine fits together from facts that you are evidently unable or unwilling to rebut (because they’re accurate) and logic that is sound and valid and you are unable or unwilling to address, which is why you keep trying to change the subject. > At least try to argue honestly and intelligently. > Start by discussing the facts, it’s generally your best bet. Come on, I’d like to know when it’s a good time to buy a lottery ticket. It’ll probably be around the time you actually shut your yap and quit your attempts at diversion and fallacy, and actually attempt to defend your own position. Any time now buddy. Or should that be, any lifetime now? Get to it. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2010, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finn-agains-wake/532923/585 "2010-04-06T20:18:28Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > Does that mean he’s practicing fallacio? Indictment pending. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2010, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finn-agains-wake/532923/586 "2010-04-06T20:19:41Z")
So, **Finn** , you’re just going to keep lying about what I said, the better to smear me. Unsurprising, I guess. Here’s a clue: I don’t give a flying fuck about whether someone is a Jew or not. What concerns me is when someone with a demonstrable allegiance to a foreign nation gets put into a decision-making position in the State Department or the Pentagon. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2010, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finn-agains-wake/532923/587 "2010-04-06T20:20:13Z")
> [@VinylTurnip](#): > > “…if you keep it up, I may have no choice.” And this is a guy with a vast collection of Barbra Steisand records! ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2010, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finn-agains-wake/532923/588 "2010-04-06T21:04:22Z")
> [@spoke-](#): > > the better to smear me Nah. It’s just the same diversionary tactics that you used with Jack, when even after he quoted your own words at you, you called him a liar. It’s just what you do, scuttling away from the light and all. I would really like you to be the first racist on the Dope, though, who’s honestly answered why it is that you all lie about your racism when caught. David Duke claims, just like you, that he’s not a racist but he just wants to warn us about dangerous Traitor Jews. Like you, David Duke argues that it’s Jewish ethnicity/religion that makes Jews potential traitors. Like you, he argues that we must be wary of those Traitor Jews. Like you, he lies and says that even someone who opposes the Israeli occupation and calls it “insanity” is a secret Israeli partisan. If you had two neurons to rub together, you’d realize it’s not guilt by association, but guilt by the fact that both of you are racists who use the same arguments about dangerous Traitor Jews. Seriously, read the definition of fallacies you link to. Guilt by association says: 1 It is pointed out that people person A does not like accept claim P. 2 Therefore P is false I did not use Duke to show that your racist conspiracy mongering was wrong because Duke is an asshole and he agrees with you, I used Duke to show that Duke engages in racist conspiracy mongering, and you use his same tactics. The fact that your paranoid nuttery is based on nothing but JAQing Off and racial hatred means you haven’t even proven your own case, I don’t have to disprove it, you need to prove that your judeophibia, based on racism and ignorance, is a sound basis for holding American Jews to a totally seperate standard and Loyalty Litmus Test if they dare disagree with you. But showing how you are a vile racist doesn’t rebut your argument, because I didn’t have to since you refuse to actually make an argument and instead sit in a corner JAQing Off. You know, burden of proof and all that. Ah well, I’ll indulge your trolling just a little bit, racist. Did you, in fact, say that Jews whose politics differed from yours were suspect and should be watched as potential Traitor Jews? That they might sell out their own homes for the benefit of a foreign power? Or, worse, that if they had the sheer audacity to disagree with you (or worse, to point out how full of shit you are) that they were so ruined by their Jewish ethnicity/religion that they couldn’t even tell the difference between what was good for their home and what was good for a nation half the planet away? Yes: > [@](#): > > Now does all of this add up to a “conspiracy” or the presence of Israeli agents in the US government? **Not necessarily.** But what is very clear is that the Bush administration has included a lot of people with uncomfortably close ties to Israel…It is not necessary that Perle, Wolfowitz and the others be **actual agents for Israel.** It is enough cause for concern that they have very close personal ties to Israel… **That is the danger** in my view…It is no conspiracy theory to state that Israel actively lobbies the US government. (See the American Israel Public Affairs Committee mentioned above.) Whether Israel goes beyond lobbying is something for which there is some circumstantial evidence but no hard proof. \*\*It would be naive, in my opinion, to dismiss the possibility out of hand. I would say the situation bears close watching \*\*(bolding added) Did you, in fact, lie and claim that those who criticize Israel never do, then tried to justify that lie and claim that you can never tolerate a behavior but engage in? All while lying to say that those who criticize Israel don’t do it enough, therefore they don’t ever do it, therefore they’re security risks due to being potential Traitor Jews? Yes: > [@](#): > > Furthermore, Finn likes to say that " **dual loyalty" is an antisemitic “canard,” but I am not sure how else to view his blind devotion to Israel** , and **his refusal to brook criticism** of her. I sure wouldn’t want someone with Finn’s outlook calling shots at the State Department or the Pentagon, yet we seem to have gotten a fair amount of that very thing under Bush. **The concern, of course, is that someone with that level of devotion to Israel may start to conflate what is best for Israel with what is best for the US.** Is that a “conspiracy theory”? What part of that concern requires a “conspiracy?” (bolding added) > [@](#): > > American Jews – that they were **allowing their […] ethicity […] to influence their views on US policy toward Israel** (bolding added) And then of course, like any silly racist, you reiterated your racist claims while denying them: > [@](#): > > As I said before, **my concern is not “infiltration,”** so much as a concern that **folks with Finn’s mindset (and yours, apparently) might have a tendency to conflate the interests of Israel with those of the US.** Are you, in fact, such a fucked up racist that you will point to people advising Israel to break economic aid ties with the US and to stand on its own without any US support, military or economic? Yes: > [@](#): > > (And I should point out that the ties of Perle and Wolfowitz to Israel went beyond them simply being “Joos” as you so charmingly put it. Perle, for example, had been the author of a 1996 policy paper for Israeli Prime Minister Netanyahu, entitled A Clean Break: A New Strategy for Securing the Realm. Again, what did those Traitor Jews actually advise the US and Israel should do vis a vis our relationship? > [@Dastardly PNAC Joooo Traitors](#): > > Israel can make a clean break from the past and establish a new vision for the U.S.-Israeli partnership based on self-reliance, maturity and mutuality — not one focused narrowly on territorial disputes. Israel’s new strategy — based on a shared philosophy of peace through strength — reflects continuity with Western values by stressing that Israel is self-reliant, does not need U.S. troops in any capacity to defend it, including on the Golan Heights, and can manage its own affairs. > […] > To reinforce this point, the Prime Minister can use his forthcoming visit to announce that Israel is now mature enough to cut itself free immediately from at least U.S. economic aid and loan guarantees at least, which prevent economic reform. So, yep. You’re just the standard sort of racist who can talk a mean game about how much you hate/distrust/fear a racial group, but as soon as you’re called on the carpet you scurry away. The only ‘good Jew’ for you is one who doesn’t dare have his or her own political opinion, and even if they criticize Israel, you’ll lie and claim that they allow no criticism of Israel at all. And why? Because they oppose your filthy deceptions and lies. Obviously, anybody that shows that you are a liar who is full of shit and supports bigots like carter who use lies to demonize one side and prop up another is someone who is rabidly partisan and cannot be trusted, since they are all potential Traitor Jews. Naturally, when called on the facts, you’ll try to change the subject with inane idiocy and diversions. Speaking of how you scurry instead of backing up your own claims, time to answer those factual questions. You’ve had days now to support your own positions. You’ve pretended that non-fallacies were fallacious, and you’ve pretended that the mere fact of asking you to back up your own claims was a fallacy. :rolleyes:. Time to man up, racist, and get down to brass tacks. Unless a secret Traitor Jew is preventing you. We’d all understand that, one can’t be too careful with those Ideologically Impure Jews. > [@](#): > > Not that I question your intellectual honesty spoke (of course), but please elaborate on exactly what you’re opposed to. > > Is it the ability of people in general to own land, so any apartment I’ve ever lived in is my property? Or is it simply the ability for states to set land ownership policy such that some land is state-owned, so if I put up a tent in Yellowstone, that federal land would become mine? And as you’re undoubtedly intellectually honest and playing fair, would you also say that the Palestinians who privately owned land were doing wrong since the Ottoman land codes called for it, or was it just the Palestinians who didn’t own land who were being wronged but those who did were fine even if it was inhabited by other Palestinians who were their tenants? > > And, likewise, as I’m sure you’re intellectually honest and factually knowledgeable, please identify the demographics and valid land owners (ignoring the actual laws if you’d wish) starting at any point at all during the last 1,000 years, from the Ottomans to the Mamluk kingdom and the Crusader kingdom before that, and the Fatimid kingdom before that. Please identify at which point their land rights were stripped. Thanks. And: > [@](#): > > Still not going to touch the facts, are you Spoke? > Let’s start real slow. > > -You show how Carter so continually makes ‘factual errors’ that are so very easy to correct. Some of which he knew weren’t true at the same time he said them. Exlain how they are honest, good faith mistakes and not lies. > -If you cannot do that, explain how his lies all, and without exception, go to prop up his narrative that Israel is a warmongering aggressor that wasn’t nothing to do with peace, and the lies do so innocently and by coincidence. > -If you cannot do that, explain why his agenda-driven lies, that evince a desire to repeat Hamas fictions even when he knows they are untrue and to lie about Israel in order to demonize them, don’t demonstrate that he is obstinately and intolerantly dedicated to his opinions and prejudices, and they are all against Israel, and thus he is bigoted against Israel and uses lies to support his bigotry. > > Come on, this is not difficult. Support your argument. Mine fits together from facts that you are evidently unable or unwilling to rebut (because they’re accurate) and logic that is sound and valid and you are unable or unwilling to address, which is why you keep trying to change the subject. > At least try to argue honestly and intelligently. > Start by discussing the facts, it’s generally your best bet. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2010, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finn-agains-wake/532923/589 "2010-04-07T00:52:04Z")
Well, you’ve done a fine job of slicing, dicing, parsing, taking out of context, ducking and dodging, but still, nothing I wrote adds up to this statement you attributed to me: > [@FinnAgain](#): > > You can’t claim that **if Jew disagrees with your politics and/or doesn’t criticize Israel often enough that he’s a potential traitor who has to be watched** , and then claim it’s a strawman for someone to remember what you’ve said. So again I say: [Straw Man Fallacy](http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/straw-man.html) And I see you are trotting out David Duke again. You know who else trotted out David Duke? Hitler, that’s who! You are just like Hitler! [Guilt By Association Fallacy](http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/guilt-by-association.html) > [@FinnAgain](#): > > And, likewise, as I’m sure you’re intellectually honest and factually knowledgeable, please identify the demographics and valid land owners (ignoring the actual laws if you’d wish) starting at any point at all during the last 1,000 years, from the Ottomans to the Mamluk kingdom and the Crusader kingdom before that, and the Fatimid kingdom before that. Please identify at which point their land rights were stripped. Thanks. [Fallacy of Argument By Question:](http://www.don-lindsay-archive.org/skeptic/arguments.html#question) > [@](#): > > **Argument By Question:** > > [A]sking your opponent a question which does not have a snappy answer. (Or anyway, no snappy answer that the audience has the background to understand.) Your opponent has a choice: he can look weak or he can look long-winded. For example, “How can scientists expect us to believe that anything as complex as a single living cell could have arisen as a result of random natural processes ?” ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2010, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finn-agains-wake/532923/590 "2010-04-07T00:54:19Z")
Say, what happened to **Jackmamnii**? Aren’t we due for a “Yap! Yap! Yap!” right about now? ---
**Author:** ![ivn1188](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e480ec/32.png) [@ivn1188](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivn1188)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2010, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finn-agains-wake/532923/591 "2010-04-07T01:20:40Z")
God dammit, people! **FinnAgainAndAgainAndAgainAndAgainAndAgain…** is a great debater! Why, his post is his cite! How dare you lie to us all about logical fallacies, you racist scum? You cannot compete with the Wall of Text. The Wall is everywhere. It sees all. It knows all. It is complete in and of itself, encompassing the universe, creating its own truths. It watches you masturbate. It contains all words, ever. Any statement you wish to make is contained within the wall. All your points are invalid, because the wall has turned them against you. To question the Wall is to lie. To question the wall is to be stupid. A stupid lying idiot. The Wall knows that you are racist. The Wall knows you hate the chosen people. The Wall laughs in the face of your puny fallacies and makes them its own. The Wall cannot be stopped, and you cannot hope to contain it. The Wall shoots and scores, right into your face. The Wall is here and you will bow before it, and before it’s chosen avatar, the wordy one, the repeater, the stylistically rigid, the obsessive destroyer of all who dare to disbelieve the Obvious Truth of the Wall, who shall be known as **FinnAgain**. He will preach the Wall to the masses. He will smite the stupid, and the liars. He will continue to smite them until either they give up or die of old age. Time is meaningless to him. Carpal tunnel is meaningless to him. Your opinion is meaningless to him. The Wall is his master and his slave. You are merely fodder for the Wall, to be digested and excreted in the usual manner. Fear the Wall. The Wall is all powerful. Do not respond to the Wall, as your efforts will be turned against you and you shall receive in return sevenfold the dividends of your useless argumentation. Do not feed the prophet of the Wall. He never gives up. He never dies. He will never utter the word surrender, unless it is in reference to your pathetic mewling as the words of the Wall are driven into your eyes and mind like red hot pokers made of pure solidified acid. You cannot win. You cannot hide. You cannot faze the wall with logic or reason. You cannot top the wall, for it is so large it overlaps itself. It is impenetrable. The Wall commands and you obey. Begin worship now and you may be saved. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2010, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finn-agains-wake/532923/592 "2010-04-07T01:48:53Z")
Damn spoke, you’re not even a good troll. Like I said, you were asking for your own words to be cited so that you could then deny them. Big surprise. It should be pretty clear for those reading along that if a Jew has the nerve to disagree with you, that you’ll lie and call them a Traitor Jew, up to and including casting their statements that Israel should break away from the US and not use the US for economic or military support as a nefarious piece of Traitor Jewing, trying to place America in harm’s way for Israel’s gain. And after I pointed out how you’re misusing the guilt by association fallacy, you go and make that ‘mistake’ yet again. ‘Honest mistake’ on your part, I’m sure. And you use the made up “fallacy of argument by questioning” to show that asking you to prove your own claims is a fallacy. And it’s a fallacy, because proving your claims doesn’t have a snappy answer. Good gods, but you’re pathetic, just like every other cowardly racist to grace the Dope. Here, I’ll put the factual questions to you yet again, not that I think you’ll answer them any time soon, but because people reading along should know that you’re dodging them, yet again, while claiming that being asked to\* make your own argument or rebut one that you disagree with is a fallacy\*. And go figure, you ‘accidentally forgot’ to quote the part of your made up fallacy (which wouldn’t be a logical fallacy anyway, you uneducated schmuck) that says that every single question in the world is a fallacy. Yeah great cite you dug up there. You lie about the accurate cite you found, and use a shit one to back up your claims that to question you is a fallacy, in and of itself. To say nothing of the fact that it really is disgusting for a racist like you to keep citing Nizkor to advance your anti-Jewish agenda. Most people would at least have the basic human decency not to knowing distort a website decided to Holocaust victims in the service of defending anti-Semitism. Not you, it seems. > [@](#): > > Not that I question your intellectual honesty spoke (of course), but please elaborate on exactly what you’re opposed to. > > Is it the ability of people in general to own land, so any apartment I’ve ever lived in is my property? Or is it simply the ability for states to set land ownership policy such that some land is state-owned, so if I put up a tent in Yellowstone, that federal land would become mine? And as you’re undoubtedly intellectually honest and playing fair, would you also say that the Palestinians who privately owned land were doing wrong since the Ottoman land codes called for it, or was it just the Palestinians who didn’t own land who were being wronged but those who did were fine even if it was inhabited by other Palestinians who were their tenants? > > And, likewise, as I’m sure you’re intellectually honest and factually knowledgeable, please identify the demographics and valid land owners (ignoring the actual laws if you’d wish) starting at any point at all during the last 1,000 years, from the Ottomans to the Mamluk kingdom and the Crusader kingdom before that, and the Fatimid kingdom before that. Please identify at which point their land rights were stripped. Thanks. And: > [@](#): > > Still not going to touch the facts, are you Spoke? > Let’s start real slow. > > -You show how Carter so continually makes ‘factual errors’ that are so very easy to correct. Some of which he knew weren’t true at the same time he said them. Exlain how they are honest, good faith mistakes and not lies. > -If you cannot do that, explain how his lies all, and without exception, go to prop up his narrative that Israel is a warmongering aggressor that wasn’t nothing to do with peace, and the lies do so innocently and by coincidence. > -If you cannot do that, explain why his agenda-driven lies, that evince a desire to repeat Hamas fictions even when he knows they are untrue and to lie about Israel in order to demonize them, don’t demonstrate that he is obstinately and intolerantly dedicated to his opinions and prejudices, and they are all against Israel, and thus he is bigoted against Israel and uses lies to support his bigotry. > > Come on, this is not difficult. Support your argument. Mine fits together from facts that you are evidently unable or unwilling to rebut (because they’re accurate) and logic that is sound and valid and you are unable or unwilling to address, which is why you keep trying to change the subject. > At least try to argue honestly and intelligently. > Start by discussing the facts, it’s generally your best bet. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2010, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finn-agains-wake/532923/593 "2010-04-07T02:41:51Z")
A compendium of **Finn** ’s logical fallacies in this thread: [Ad Hominem](http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/ad-hominem.html)[Appeal to Consequences of a Belief](http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/appeal-to-consequences.html) [Appeal to Fear](http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/appeal-to-fear.html) [Appeal to Pity](http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/appeal-to-pity.html) [Appeal to Ridicule](http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/appeal-to-ridicule.html) [Composition Fallacy](http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/composition.html) [False Dilemma Fallacy](http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/false-dilemma.html) [Genetic Fallacy](http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/genetic-fallacy.html) [Fallacy of Guilt By Association](http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/guilt-by-association.html) [Fallacy of Misleading Vividness](http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/misleading-vividness.html) [**Fallacy of Personal Attack**](http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/personal-attack.html) (Finn’s favorite by far.) [Poisoning the Well](http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/poisoning-the-well.html) [Slippery Slope Fallacy](http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/slippery-slope.html) [Straw Man Fallacy](http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/slippery-slope.html) [Argument By Emotive Language](http://www.don-lindsay-archive.org/skeptic/arguments.html#emotive) [Argument By Half Truth](http://www.don-lindsay-archive.org/skeptic/arguments.html#half_truth) [Argument By Question](http://www.don-lindsay-archive.org/skeptic/arguments.html#question) [Argument By Vehemence](http://www.don-lindsay-archive.org/skeptic/arguments.html#vehemence) [**Argument by Repetition**](http://www.don-lindsay-archive.org/skeptic/arguments.html#repetition) (Another Finn favorite. “spoke-is-a-racist, spoke-is-a-racist, spoke-is-a-racist”) [Argument By Selective Observation](http://www.don-lindsay-archive.org/skeptic/arguments.html#selective) [**Needling**](http://www.don-lindsay-archive.org/skeptic/arguments.html#needling) [Weasel Wording](http://www.don-lindsay-archive.org/skeptic/arguments.html#weasel) It’s really an impressive display. Almost as though he read a list of fallacies and kept saying to himself “Oooh. That’s a good one! I think I’ll try _that_!” ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2010, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finn-agains-wake/532923/594 "2010-04-07T02:53:19Z")
Naturally , readers can and should check up on that list and see if Spoke used even one of those accurately. After readers realize that not one of his claims is accurate, they can then figure out for themselves if it is stupidity or mendacity that causes spoke to spit out long lists of fallacies that simple reading would show him aren’t what he’s claiming. Remember, this is the same fellow who wants people to believe that asking someone to prove their own claims is not only a fallacy, but any and every question ever asked in the history of humanity, and any question that might be asked, is fallacious if they don’t have “snappy answers”. Readers should also note how many times he’s engaging in projection, like “needling” which states "simply attempting to make the other person angry, without trying to address the argument at hand. Sometimes this is a delaying tactic. " Speaking of the argument at hand being ignored via delaying tactics. The arguments: > [@](#): > > Not that I question your intellectual honesty spoke (of course), but please elaborate on exactly what you’re opposed to. > > Is it the ability of people in general to own land, so any apartment I’ve ever lived in is my property? Or is it simply the ability for states to set land ownership policy such that some land is state-owned, so if I put up a tent in Yellowstone, that federal land would become mine? And as you’re undoubtedly intellectually honest and playing fair, would you also say that the Palestinians who privately owned land were doing wrong since the Ottoman land codes called for it, or was it just the Palestinians who didn’t own land who were being wronged but those who did were fine even if it was inhabited by other Palestinians who were their tenants? > > And, likewise, as I’m sure you’re intellectually honest and factually knowledgeable, please identify the demographics and valid land owners (ignoring the actual laws if you’d wish) starting at any point at all during the last 1,000 years, from the Ottomans to the Mamluk kingdom and the Crusader kingdom before that, and the Fatimid kingdom before that. Please identify at which point their land rights were stripped. Thanks. And: > [@](#): > > Still not going to touch the facts, are you Spoke? > Let’s start real slow. > > -You show how Carter so continually makes ‘factual errors’ that are so very easy to correct. Some of which he knew weren’t true at the same time he said them. Exlain how they are honest, good faith mistakes and not lies. > -If you cannot do that, explain how his lies all, and without exception, go to prop up his narrative that Israel is a warmongering aggressor that wasn’t nothing to do with peace, and the lies do so innocently and by coincidence. > -If you cannot do that, explain why his agenda-driven lies, that evince a desire to repeat Hamas fictions even when he knows they are untrue and to lie about Israel in order to demonize them, don’t demonstrate that he is obstinately and intolerantly dedicated to his opinions and prejudices, and they are all against Israel, and thus he is bigoted against Israel and uses lies to support his bigotry. > > Come on, this is not difficult. Support your argument. Mine fits together from facts that you are evidently unable or unwilling to rebut (because they’re accurate) and logic that is sound and valid and you are unable or unwilling to address, which is why you keep trying to change the subject. > At least try to argue honestly and intelligently. > Start by discussing the facts, it’s generally your best bet. Any time now my little racist. I promise, no Traitor Jews are lurking under your bed. They won’t even sneak up and bite you while you’re attempt to prove your own claims. So go for it, time to quit your trolling and (finally) prove yoru claim. You won’t though, will you? Do you think you’re fooling anybody as to what it means that you won’t deign to prove your own claims, and you’ll allege that even asking you to do so is a fallacy? ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2010, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finn-agains-wake/532923/595 "2010-04-07T02:54:44Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Naturally , readers can and should check up on that list and see if Spoke used even one of those accurately. Oh, _absolutely!_ ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2010, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finn-agains-wake/532923/596 "2010-04-07T02:58:54Z")
I wonder, does **FinnAgain _ad infinitum_** have keyboard characters in lieu of what passes for fingerprints on other Homo sapiens? ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2010, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finn-agains-wake/532923/597 "2010-04-07T03:09:40Z")
Spoke… are you relying on reverse psychology or something? You know, some folks will actually check the dishonest use of your cites, and then they’ll see your lying. And then they’ll wonder _why_ you’re lying. Much like your lie that I’ve ever used the fallacy of personal attack. You, who has still refused to support your own argument or refute anybody else’s, are are dishonestly claiming that by debunking your claim and also calling you a scumsucking racist moron, I’ve committed a fallacy. Just like you had the actual definition of guilt by association explained to you, and then “accidentally” made the same mistake, immediately. Nah, you’re not lying in order to try to annoy me. Nopers. Just one of those lucky coincidences. Why, I bet if we didn’t comb through your posts to see all your dishonesty, we’d see a lot of instances of you lying in order to be a pleasant person. Right? People should check, so that your lies will be laid clear. Again, nah, you’re not a dishonest troll who won’t address facts except to use patently obvious dodges and deception. Nope. And please don’t embarrass yourself enough again to claim that a made-up rhetorical fallacy is a logical fallacy and that\* it’s really fallacious to ask someone to prove their own claims or rebut something they say is false, if they can’t make it “snappy”, you poor stupid racist. \* And again, speaking of how you’re a weasel who evades the actual arguments in favor of dodges, dishonesty, and personal attacks: > [@](#): > > Not that I question your intellectual honesty spoke (of course), but please elaborate on exactly what you’re opposed to. > > Is it the ability of people in general to own land, so any apartment I’ve ever lived in is my property? Or is it simply the ability for states to set land ownership policy such that some land is state-owned, so if I put up a tent in Yellowstone, that federal land would become mine? And as you’re undoubtedly intellectually honest and playing fair, would you also say that the Palestinians who privately owned land were doing wrong since the Ottoman land codes called for it, or was it just the Palestinians who didn’t own land who were being wronged but those who did were fine even if it was inhabited by other Palestinians who were their tenants? > > And, likewise, as I’m sure you’re intellectually honest and factually knowledgeable, please identify the demographics and valid land owners (ignoring the actual laws if you’d wish) starting at any point at all during the last 1,000 years, from the Ottomans to the Mamluk kingdom and the Crusader kingdom before that, and the Fatimid kingdom before that. Please identify at which point their land rights were stripped. Thanks. And: > [@](#): > > Still not going to touch the facts, are you Spoke? > Let’s start real slow. > > -You show how Carter so continually makes ‘factual errors’ that are so very easy to correct. Some of which he knew weren’t true at the same time he said them. Exlain how they are honest, good faith mistakes and not lies. > -If you cannot do that, explain how his lies all, and without exception, go to prop up his narrative that Israel is a warmongering aggressor that wasn’t nothing to do with peace, and the lies do so innocently and by coincidence. > -If you cannot do that, explain why his agenda-driven lies, that evince a desire to repeat Hamas fictions even when he knows they are untrue and to lie about Israel in order to demonize them, don’t demonstrate that he is obstinately and intolerantly dedicated to his opinions and prejudices, and they are all against Israel, and thus he is bigoted against Israel and uses lies to support his bigotry. > > Come on, this is not difficult. Support your argument. Mine fits together from facts that you are evidently unable or unwilling to rebut (because they’re accurate) and logic that is sound and valid and you are unable or unwilling to address, which is why you keep trying to change the subject. > At least try to argue honestly and intelligently. > Start by discussing the facts, it’s generally your best bet. Answer them any time now, or come up with some more google vomit of listing any fallacy that sounds good to you, even while you know that they’re inaccurate and you’re just using them to troll. Go for it, you sad little racist. Or I’ll sic the PNAC on you. > [@RedFury](#): > > I wonder I wonder if you will ever retract any of your lies. You posted that 90% of land in Palestine was owned by Palestinians. Something not one honest historian on the planet would ever claim, because it’s a fiction. Will you retract your lie and refrain from trying to support future screeds with lies, or will you just carry on and engage in the same behavior later? ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2010, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finn-agains-wake/532923/598 "2010-04-07T03:21:06Z")
> [@spoke-](#): > > A compendium of **Finn** ’s logical fallacies in this thread…It’s really an impressive display. Of projection. In fact you could stre..e..t..ch all the items on that list to indict virtually everyone who habitually posts in these sorts of threads. Take that really cool “Fallacy of Misleading Vividness”. Sounds like what **spoke** was using when he referenced the Minnesota Interstate bridge collapse, and warned us we could expect similar disasters due to budget constraints brought about by sending foreign aid to Israel. Talk about monomania. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2010, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finn-agains-wake/532923/599 "2010-04-07T03:33:44Z")
Likewise spoke, my good racist, they’ll click on some others and realize that not only are they inaccurate, they have nothing to do with anything that’s going on. There is not one example of me using the fallacy of composition in this thread (which naturally is why you just listed it in a vacuum and not quoted any bit of text which you claimed did it, because you knew you were full of shit but decided to troll anyways). I already tried to teach you why you’re (deliberately) wrong about ad hom, but you’re trolling, so being right doesn’t matter quite as much as trying to aggravate me; only an idiot would believe that rather than spending my time attacking your arguments, I’ve totally ignored them while attacking you personally. They will note, however, that for dozens of posts you’ve been afraid to back up your own claim and haven’t attempted to refute my correct analysis of the pattern of Carter’s agenda-driven lies and his bigotry, but are instead using an actual ad hominem fallacy by arguing that if I use fallacies, you don’t actually have to prove your claims or debunk mine. By the way, you poor, stupid, ignorant racist, in addition to committing the ad hominem fallacy, you’ve just committed [the fallacy fallacy](http://www.fallacyfiles.org/fallfall.html). And yeah, folks will notice you dishonestly try to sneak made-up rhetorical fallacies into a list of logical fallacies. And how you’ve actually tried to claim that asking any question that doesn’t have a “snappy answer” is a logical fallacy. (which, naturally, is why you won’t prove your own claims about land ownership, since asking you who owned what land, when, and why some were stripped of land ownership rights is a fallacy if it can’t be answered with a snappy one liner.) :rolleyes: They might actually click on the fallacy of personal attack, and then realize that you’re lying, and never once have I used personal insults to _substitute for a refutation, but always in concert with one_. They might realize you’re lying when you claim that I used the (rhetorical, not logical) “fallacy of repetition” and that rather than simply pointing out that you’re a Jew-hating racist piece of trash, that I showed how your own words proved it. Poor, poor racist. So afraid of how people react to racists that you have to hide behind JAQin Off and lying. Just get it over with. A website where folks expect you to actually use accusations of logical fallacies correctly and without deliberate dishonesty is obviously not the place for you. Perhaps you can sign up on some David Duke forum or Stormfront to talk about the dangerous of Traitor Jews and the threat that Dual Loyalty proves to our nation. At least, nobody there will have a problem with you, and you can find some likeminded folks to hate the Jews with. And so on. You poor racist, reduced to trolling to avoid proving your own claims or debunking mine. Which are, yet again: > [@](#): > > Not that I question your intellectual honesty spoke (of course), but please elaborate on exactly what you’re opposed to. > > Is it the ability of people in general to own land, so any apartment I’ve ever lived in is my property? Or is it simply the ability for states to set land ownership policy such that some land is state-owned, so if I put up a tent in Yellowstone, that federal land would become mine? And as you’re undoubtedly intellectually honest and playing fair, would you also say that the Palestinians who privately owned land were doing wrong since the Ottoman land codes called for it, or was it just the Palestinians who didn’t own land who were being wronged but those who did were fine even if it was inhabited by other Palestinians who were their tenants? > > And, likewise, as I’m sure you’re intellectually honest and factually knowledgeable, please identify the demographics and valid land owners (ignoring the actual laws if you’d wish) starting at any point at all during the last 1,000 years, from the Ottomans to the Mamluk kingdom and the Crusader kingdom before that, and the Fatimid kingdom before that. Please identify at which point their land rights were stripped. Thanks. And: > [@](#): > > Still not going to touch the facts, are you Spoke? > Let’s start real slow. > > -You show how Carter so continually makes ‘factual errors’ that are so very easy to correct. Some of which he knew weren’t true at the same time he said them. Exlain how they are honest, good faith mistakes and not lies. > -If you cannot do that, explain how his lies all, and without exception, go to prop up his narrative that Israel is a warmongering aggressor that wasn’t nothing to do with peace, and the lies do so innocently and by coincidence. > -If you cannot do that, explain why his agenda-driven lies, that evince a desire to repeat Hamas fictions even when he knows they are untrue and to lie about Israel in order to demonize them, don’t demonstrate that he is obstinately and intolerantly dedicated to his opinions and prejudices, and they are all against Israel, and thus he is bigoted against Israel and uses lies to support his bigotry. > > Come on, this is not difficult. Support your argument. Mine fits together from facts that you are evidently unable or unwilling to rebut (because they’re accurate) and logic that is sound and valid and you are unable or unwilling to address, which is why you keep trying to change the subject. > At least try to argue honestly and intelligently. > Start by discussing the facts, it’s generally your best bet. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2010, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finn-agains-wake/532923/600 "2010-04-07T04:18:17Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > In fact you could stre..e..t..ch all the items on that list to indict virtually everyone who habitually posts in these sorts of threads. Perhaps, but it was [Finn who was bragging about how he was shooting down everyone _else’s_ fallacies](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12306453&postcount=552). People who live in glass houses should buy some curtains. Or something like that. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finn-agains-wake/532923.md?page=29) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finn-agains-wake/532923.md?page=31)