# Finn Again's Wake **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 18, 2010, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finn-agains-wake/532923 "2010-03-18T19:10:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 32
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2010, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finn-agains-wake/532923/621 "2010-04-10T03:46:19Z")
Yes, I am sorry for misunderstanding your own words in black and white, in context. I am equally sorry to ‘misunderstand’ catching you in your silly little evasions. > [@you](#): > > The Jewishitude of the person doesn’t enter in to it, its merely one of many such possibilities. > [@you](#): > > Why would we refuse to contemplate such a loyalty on religious or ethnic grounds? The classic question, of course, is were you lying then or are you lying now? But it should probably be modified to something like “were you a weasel then, or are you a weasel now?” ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2010, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finn-agains-wake/532923/622 "2010-04-10T04:00:04Z")
**Finn** , it’s hardly necessary to go into detailed analysis of what you think **elucidator** means when he says “Why wouldn’t we expect such (Dual Loyalty among Jews), given that otherwise loyal Americans spied for the Soviets due to their unjustifiable loyalty to international Communism. Why would we refuse to contemplate such a loyalty on religious or ethnic grounds?” Or when he says “My point is that there are many, many occasions when conflicting loyalty overwhelms patriotism: many of the people who spied for the Soviets did not hate America and did not think of themselves as working against her interests. The Jewishitude of the person doesn’t enter in to it, its merely one of many such possibilities.” It’s quite crystal clear what he means; no comprehensive parsing is necessary. And he’s far from alone. In fact, his words call to mind those of a famous American whose reputation still shines brightly among many admirers. This gentleman spoke his mind in [a widely-reported 1941 speech](http://www.charleslindbergh.com/americanfirst/speech.asp), and he’s still being pilloried for it. \*"No person with a sense of the dignity of mankind can condone the persecution of the Jewish race…But no person of honesty and vision can look on their pro-war policy…without seeing the dangers involved in such a policy both for us and for them. Instead of agitating for war, the Jewish groups in this country should be opposing it in every possible way for they will be among the first to feel its consequences… Tolerance is a virtue that depends upon peace and strength. History shows that it cannot survive war and devastations. A few far-sighted Jewish people realize this and stand opposed to intervention. But the majority still do not… I am not attacking…the Jewish…people…But I am saying that the leaders of…the Jewish race…, for reasons which are as understandable from their viewpoint as they are inadvisable from ours, for reasons which are not American, wish to involve us in…war. We cannot blame them for looking out for what they believe to be their own interests, but we also must look out for ours. We cannot allow the natural passions and prejudices of other peoples to lead our country to destruction."\* Cleaned up a bit to drop some slightly embarassing stuff and to add contemporary relevance, and you have sentiments a number of people posting in this thread would applaud - not publicly perhaps, given the smearing of Patriotic Americans who speak out on the issue, but certainly in private. When history’s wheel turns, it’s interesting how often it brings us back to where we used to be. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2010, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finn-agains-wake/532923/623 "2010-04-10T04:25:55Z")
Jack, I’m surprised, that is truly a disgusting implication. Disgusting. I’m sure that Lucy doesn’t know how to fly a plane. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2010, 6:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finn-agains-wake/532923/624 "2010-04-10T06:17:41Z")
Oh, hell, everybody knows the Jews lost out to the Catholics in the struggle to control America, though the Beach Boys put up a good fight with their hit single, “Be True to Your Shul”… ---
**Author:** ![ivn1188](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e480ec/32.png) [@ivn1188](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivn1188)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2010, 6:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finn-agains-wake/532923/625 "2010-04-10T06:33:15Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Jack, I’m surprised, that is truly a disgusting implication. Disgusting. > I’m sure that Lucy doesn’t know how to fly a plane. Wow, responding to your own sock is a masterful touch. Grats on your advanced trolling technique. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2010, 7:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finn-agains-wake/532923/626 "2010-04-10T07:17:21Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > “Be True to Your Shul”… Why, aside from those possible Traitor Jews who have a dastardly Dual Loyalty based on religious or ethnic grounds yet, paradoxically, whose “Jewishitude” doesn’t enter in to their Dual Loyalty, I bet you’d even agree that few Jews of the right type are, I believe, an asset to any country. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2010, 7:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finn-agains-wake/532923/627 "2010-04-10T07:31:25Z")
You know what amuses me? Being called a racist by a member of one of, if not the, most divisive groups of people who ever walked the earth. It was you jews, lest ye forget, who decided that everyone who was non-jew was not the same as you, unless they adopted your ridiculous belief system. Hence the first step down the road of non-critical thinking. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2010, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finn-agains-wake/532923/628 "2010-04-10T14:11:23Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > It was you jews, lest ye forget, who decided that everyone who was non-jew was not the same as you, unless they adopted your ridiculous belief system. I don’t think dividing the world into “people like us” and “weirdo” is an exclusively Jewish trait, nor did Jews invent it. Most languages have two words for people…a word for themselves that means “human beings”, and a word for everybody else that means “barbarian”. If anything, the ancient Jews were less restrictive than most people, by adopting foreigners in if they adopted the “ridiculous belief system”. Although, honestly, Judaism isn’t really about belief at all. Historically, there’s been a lot more pressure towards orthopraxy than orthodoxy. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2010, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finn-agains-wake/532923/629 "2010-04-10T14:36:51Z")
It’s funny that you mention language, because I’ve read some fairly compelling arguments that language itself (coupled with accents) helped serve the purpose of identification. That is, tribal allegiances could be feigned or potentially changed, but if you met someone on the border of your territory and they weren’t able to sling the lingo, you knew that they were a potential hostile without doing anything more than saying “Hi there, how you doing?” and seeing if they could respond properly. Then again, even if Jews had invented tribalism, blaming modern Jews for whatever happened millennia ago is, well, a bit weird. Like going up to an Italian person and kicking them in the shins for all that ‘feeding Christians to lions’ stuff. Of course, when corrected on his view that “the Chosen People” is a superiority complex rather than a burden that can be met by any gentile simply by following the Noahide Laws, Ivan has proved, shall we say, factually resistant. He’s’ not particularly interested in facts that get in the way of his opinions, is all. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2010, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finn-agains-wake/532923/630 "2010-04-10T15:16:13Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > It’s funny that you mention language, because I’ve read some fairly compelling arguments that language itself (coupled with accents) helped serve the purpose of identification. That is, tribal allegiances could be feigned or potentially changed, but if you met someone on the border of your territory and they weren’t able to sling the lingo, you knew that they were a potential hostile without doing anything more than saying “Hi there, how you doing?” and seeing if they could respond properly. Turning that full circle and back to the Jews, there’s a story in the bible about that, in the book of Judges, after Jephthah leads Gilead to victory against the tribe of Ephraim. After the battle, the Ephraimite soldiers tried to escape back across the Jordan into Ephraim, so Jephthah put sentries at the fords who ordered anybody wanting to cross to say “shibbolet” (stalk of grain). Since the dialect of Hebrew spoken in Ephraim didn’t have a “sh” sound, the Ephraimites couldn’t say it “correctly”, and Jephthah’s troops killed them. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2010, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finn-agains-wake/532923/631 "2010-04-10T15:53:01Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Why, aside from those possible Traitor Jews who have a dastardly Dual Loyalty based on religious or ethnic grounds yet, paradoxically, whose “Jewishitude” doesn’t enter in to their Dual Loyalty, I bet you’d even agree that few Jews of the right type are, I believe, an asset to any country. Since you know what I think so much better than I do, I’m reluctant to hazard a guess. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2010, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finn-agains-wake/532923/632 "2010-04-10T16:10:11Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Then again, even if Jews had invented tribalism, blaming modern Jews for whatever happened millennia ago is, well, a bit weird. But, it’s okay for recently modern jews to base their right to a homeland on events millenia ago, eh? ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2010, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finn-agains-wake/532923/633 "2010-04-10T17:02:41Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > back to the Jews …_the Jews!_ ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2010, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finn-agains-wake/532923/634 "2010-04-10T17:20:16Z")
So, uh, _not_ the Jews? ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2010, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finn-agains-wake/532923/635 "2010-04-10T17:36:13Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > …dastardly Dual Loyalty… Yeah, it’s really hard to imagine an American with a fanatical attachment to Israel. Wherever could we _find_ such a creature? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2010, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finn-agains-wake/532923/636 "2010-04-10T17:38:34Z")
In Texas! Had a bunch of them in Waco, where I grew up, but, of course, they were mostly in Temple. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2010, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finn-agains-wake/532923/637 "2010-04-10T18:32:02Z")
> [@spoke-](#): > > Wherever could we _find_ such a creature? Probably in the desperate fictions of a racist like you when he meets a Jew who not only doesn’t endorse your politics, but also shows where you’re full of shit, relentlessly dishonest, a paranoid conspiracy freak and a coward who likes to change the subject whenever you’re caught at your games? Perhaps when you’re clearly beaten on the facts and reduced to lying about someone by claiming that in a thread where their first posts cites some of the times they’ve been critical of Israel, that they really tolerate no criticism of Israel at all? Perhaps if someone notices you trolling with a Gish Gallop of fallacies that you _know_ aren’t accurate but that you use to try to change the subject? Maybe a fanatic can be spotted because they point out how transparently deceptive you are when you argue that asking someone to prove their own claims, or in fact _asking any question at all that doesn’t have a ‘snappy answer’ is a logical fallacy_? Then again, we may be able to positively identify Traitor Jew Fanatics if someone as brave and honest as you can point to the dastardly _Jews_ who worked for the PNAC and advised Israel to stop receiving financial aid and stand on its own from US help, but who clearly revealed their Jewish Treachery when they said that someone who launched missiles at Israeli population centers and paid bonuses to suicide bombers’ families might just have been a security threat? Because that’d be my guess. Speaking of how you, ya know, still haven’t actually addressed facts that show you’re full of shit, let’s look at the factual claims you have yet to back up. I’m sure that you can, but you just don’t want to. But it would be easy to, seeing as how wrong I am and how right you are. It’s just taken you days. And days. And days. And days to come up with a rebuttal more substantial than “Hey… look over there!” Any time now. Seeing as how right you are and how wrong I am. > [@](#): > > Still not going to touch the facts, are you Spoke? > Let’s start real slow. > > -You show how Carter so continually makes ‘factual errors’ that are so very easy to correct. Some of which he knew weren’t true at the same time he said them. Exlain how they are honest, good faith mistakes and not lies. > -If you cannot do that, explain how his lies all, and without exception, go to prop up his narrative that Israel is a warmongering aggressor that wasn’t nothing to do with peace, and the lies do so innocently and by coincidence. > -If you cannot do that, explain why his agenda-driven lies, that evince a desire to repeat Hamas fictions even when he knows they are untrue and to lie about Israel in order to demonize them, don’t demonstrate that he is obstinately and intolerantly dedicated to his opinions and prejudices, and they are all against Israel, and thus he is bigoted against Israel and uses lies to support his bigotry. > > Come on, this is not difficult. Support your argument. Mine fits together from facts that you are evidently unable or unwilling to rebut (because they’re accurate) and logic that is sound and valid and you are unable or unwilling to address, which is why you keep trying to change the subject. > At least try to argue honestly and intelligently. > Start by discussing the facts, it’s generally your best bet. > [@](#): > > Not that I question your intellectual honesty spoke (of course), but please elaborate on exactly what you’re opposed to. > > Is it the ability of people in general to own land, so any apartment I’ve ever lived in is my property? Or is it simply the ability for states to set land ownership policy such that some land is state-owned, so if I put up a tent in Yellowstone, that federal land would become mine? And as you’re undoubtedly intellectually honest and playing fair, would you also say that the Palestinians who privately owned land were doing wrong since the Ottoman land codes called for it, or was it just the Palestinians who didn’t own land who were being wronged but those who did were fine even if it was inhabited by other Palestinians who were their tenants? > > And, likewise, as I’m sure you’re intellectually honest and factually knowledgeable, please identify the demographics and valid land owners (ignoring the actual laws if you’d wish) starting at any point at all during the last 1,000 years, from the Ottomans to the Mamluk kingdom and the Crusader kingdom before that, and the Fatimid kingdom before that. Please identify at which point their land rights were stripped. Thanks. Any time now spoke old buddy. ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2010, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finn-agains-wake/532923/638 "2010-04-10T21:07:15Z")
Lavar Arrington. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2010, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finn-agains-wake/532923/639 "2010-04-10T22:50:12Z")
OK. its been almost two hours now, and nobody has asked him what the heck he’s talking about. Well, I’m not gonna! Nosir! You ask him! ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2010, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finn-agains-wake/532923/640 "2010-04-10T23:56:07Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > …you’re full of shit, relentlessly dishonest, a paranoid conspiracy freak and a coward… Oh **Finn** , that’s just the Aspergers talking. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finn-agains-wake/532923.md?page=31) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finn-agains-wake/532923.md?page=33)