# Finn Again's Wake **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 18, 2010, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finn-agains-wake/532923 "2010-03-18T19:10:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 48
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2010, 5:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finn-agains-wake/532923/941 "2010-04-22T05:36:17Z")
And, go figure spoke, you _still_ haven’t commented on Red’s racist tactic of accusing anybody in US politics with a Jewish name of being a traitor. Funny, that. Yep, I had a typo because doge isn’t redlined and I missed it. You advocate racist conspiracy theories and condone Red’s vile racist mutterings because he’s a fellow partisan. I can’t tell which is worse. Typo… racist… typo… racist. Naw, too close to call. Let me guess, you’re never going to comment on, let alone strongly rebuke Red’s racism because either you condone it, which is bad, or because he at least has the courage that you lack and he was willing to go all out while you’re still JAQing Off about traitor-Jews. Which is worse. > [@Jackmannii](#): > > (probably due to their ethnic orientation or outright being on the payroll of Mossad, which we cannot prove but for which there is circumstantial evidence and about which we must be _vewy vewy careful_) and They must be watched very carefully, very carefully indeed. We must be vigilant. 😕:eek:😕 Yep, much like his fellow partisans’ refusal to call him on his tactic of slandering everybody he remembers in US politics who has a Jewish sounding name, the fact that Red is reduced to claiming that the people he argues with online are actual Israeli agents, without comment, just goes to show what kind of folks they are. “Blacks are potential criminals due to their ethnic identity.” = racism “Arabs are potential terrorists due to their ethnic identity.” = racism “Jews are unable to be trusted to hold different opinions than you and are potentially either active traitors or blinded and unable to tell two countries apart, due to their ethnic identity.” = solid political analysis ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2010, 6:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finn-agains-wake/532923/942 "2010-04-22T06:23:47Z")
By the way, I missed this earlier but I might as well point out yet another one of your lies. (Now the script has you go _metaliar_ and lie to claim that I accuse anybody at all who disagrees with me of lying. Then you lie and claim you weren’t really saying that and, in internetspeak, saying 'everybody" or “all” only means “some”). Let’s check your own words to find the answer to the classic question - were you lying then, or are you lying now? > [@wmfellows](#): > > my providing a quick Wiki to make reference to cites to Israeli New Historians to support my criticism of Captain using the bland term ‘fled’ when many (I did say mostly, although in my view if 50%+ are expelled, that’s mostly) were in fact expelled by the Israeli forces. You’re actually using nested lies. It’s… interesting. When you have to base one lie upon another upon another, you know you’ve got a winning tactic, eh? > [@you](#): > > > [@me](#): > > > > Also bullshit. They mostly fled the war raging around them. Some left in advance of the Arab armies, some left because they were expelled, but the claim that most were expelled is deceptive bullshit. > > The typical maneuver, exageration of the argument he doesn’t care for and claims of lying. Obviously you were lying as not only were you claiming that most were expelled, you’ve repeated that claim just now. It take a special kind of scumfuck to say something, slime somone as dishonest for rebutting what they’d just said and allege that person is making it up… and then repeat the same thing. In point of fact, you just now admitted that you said most were expelled and were lying in order to give me a hard time when you claimed that you hadn’t done any such thing. Like I said, liars have to have good memories. Maybe your pack can get a bulk deal on ginko? Anyways, onwards. Your original claim yet again, was a lie. 50%+ were not expelled. It was the original lie (on that tangent, at least) that I caught you in. Remember? It was the lie that you cited Wikipedia to back up. Rather than some disinterested historian (:rolleyes:) you cited wikipedia to try to prove your claim, rather obviously. You then claimed that: > [@](#): > > Taking simply the Israeli New Historians narrative (never mind allowing for even more critical reads), a significant percentage of refugees were in fact subject to expulsion. Half by their read. Others claim more. > > To blandly say “fled” when, by the admirably critical Israeli professional historians half at least were actively expelled by the Israeli army, well that seems to me rather biased not a particularly honest presentation. Except, [as I showed, your cite was lying](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12341918&postcount=821) (and you were using those lies to support your own) about what Morris actually said and that the only other New Historian it mentioned was a self-admitted propagandist. You responded with your characteristic dishonesty; caught at using a cite that was based on one lie and used an admitted propagandist to support another claim, you dodged and feigned that you were merely “focusing” on Israeli historians, not using them to support your claim (and you nicely dodged the fact that I’d specifically commented on _both_ of the Israeli historians you’d cited and showed how you were peddling lies about one and using a propagandist as a source for your other): > [@](#): > > I note that my only “reference” to Khalidi - who I know nothing about - was from blockquoting wikipedia paragraph that cited and focused (as did my comments) on the Israeli historians. Extraordinary. So out of three references, to Moriss, Pappe and Khalidi, you latched on to Khalidi as a dodge and ignored the other two (the actual New Historians who you’d cited to back up your original lie). And contrary to your bullshit dodge that you were simply citing some New Historians in a disinterested manner, you were actually citing them to try to prove your claim. That’s why you accused people of _dishonesty for not agreeing with the Israeli New Historians_. You’re just heaping dishonesty on dishonesty. Now, like a sniveling coward, you’re pretending you’re baffled, baffled you say, as to why someone might point out that your cite was lying about one New Historian and the second it cited is a fraud of a scholar and you were using the cite itself to prop up your relentless dishonesty. I will give you this, you lying constantly and relentlessly makes it a fucking drag to point out your dishonesty as it wriggles and pretzels itself. You seem to be aiming at creating a Gordian Knot of deception, a Gish Gallop of lies that takes an inordinate amount of time to point out, and by the time you’ve been shown to be a relentless liar, you’ve already moved on to some new lies. As a tactic I imagine it’s somewhat pragmatic but, again, you have to have a good enough memory not to admit, later on, that you were lying in order to try to piss me off. But thanks for yet another object lesson. This is how your coterie argues, one bit of deception and dishonesty piled upon another, upon another, upon another, all without comment or complaint from your co-partisans. Speaking of which, have _you_ taken Red to task for his tactic of slandering anybody in US politics who he could remember with a Jewish sounding name? You ever going to? Didn’t think so. Honesty and integrity are soooooo 2009. Keep whining about accusations of racism while you condone a racist trog like Red. ---
**Author:** ![ivn1188](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e480ec/32.png) [@ivn1188](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivn1188)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2010, 7:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finn-agains-wake/532923/943 "2010-04-22T07:32:11Z")
> [@spoke-](#): > > pssst… > > That’s the dysgraphia. Dysgraphia my ass. That’s him pounding the keyboard like it’s a fucking manual typewriter, as he swears under his breath that he will show them. Yes, he will show them all, the token traitor jews and anti-semite nazi liars that dare to say such things. I can just imagine the state of his screen, what with all the flecks of spittle he no doubt launches as he types his retarded 10 page manifestos. And I quail to consider the stench that must emanate from his shitty walk-up, what with the flab roll bacteria colonies, the catbox reek, and the disgusting odor of desperation, cheetos, and jizz that accompany the journey of an obsessive lonely internet troll whose only window to society is the 17" glow of florescent backlight. It’s obvious that he is unemployed, given the sheer output he is capable of producing at any hour of the day, and his third tier toilet polisci degree. Does anyone who isn’t his sock actually read those zealous screeds? I think not. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2010, 10:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finn-agains-wake/532923/944 "2010-04-22T10:02:29Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > It’s real simple despite your doges, or Lucy’s doges, or Red trying to change the subject: > > “[ethnic group] are [pejorative] due to their membership in that [ethnic group]” is a racist thing to say. > See: > > “Blacks are potential criminals due to their ethnic identity.” > “Arabs are potential terrorists due to their ethnic identity.” > “Jews are unable to be trusted to hold different opinions than spoke and are potentially either active traitors or blinded and unable to tell two countries apart, due to their ethnic identity.” Here’s a less vague one. _Persons in positions of high authority, are potentially more able to carry out duplicitous actions, regardless of ethnicity._ And here’s an analogy that might help you understand why people may have these outrageous thoughts. In international football, it is not unheard of for the manager of the team to be from a different country. Some fans, not necessarily lunatics, wonder if whether the fact he is Hungarian, say, and we are playing Hungary in the World Cup final, might lead to a case of mixed loyalties which could affect his decisions for our team’s playing tactics in a negative manner. Totally preposterous, I know, but surely you can understand the thoughts, without wanting to call them nasty names for thinking in such a way? ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2010, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finn-agains-wake/532923/945 "2010-04-22T14:23:51Z")
Eh, whatever, fuck it. I really should be ignoring the masturbating monkeys who populate this thread. Y’all can go back to your circle jerk and unchallenged dishonesty. Maybe Lucy’s next line can be “And all I said was that kittens are cute, and then Finn called me a racist!” Adios. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2010, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finn-agains-wake/532923/946 "2010-04-22T14:55:18Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > …I really…can be…a racist! Aha! **Finn** admits it! _He_ is the racist! (Well anyhow, that’s something akin to the way he’s been slicing and dicing my posts.) ---
**Author:** ![wmfellows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c2a13f/32.png) [@wmfellows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wmfellows)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2010, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finn-agains-wake/532923/947 "2010-04-22T17:46:22Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > By the way, I missed this earlier but I might as well point out yet another one of your lies. You mean point out a point where we have disagreement, and which you shall distort out of recognition - I have come to believe now because you are genuinely and without exaggeration, mentally ill. > [@](#): > > (Now the script has you go _metaliar_ and lie to claim that I accuse anybody at all who disagrees with me of lying. Then you lie and claim you weren’t really saying that and, in internetspeak, saying 'everybody" or “all” only means “some”). Let’s check your own words to find the answer to the classic question - were you lying then, or are you lying now? Well, I fail to see any occasion where a person here has disagreed with you on this subject where somehow you do not in fact go ballistic, froth and flail about with long diatribes. It seems abundantly clear that unless one shares your understanding of things, your mental illness leads you to see them as “liars” - sad really. Moreover I note again \*\*Sleeps, Kimstu \*\*identified similarly to me your vein of ballastic nastiness - but withdrew. > [@](#): > > You’re actually using nested lies. It’s… interesting. When you have to base one lie upon another upon another, you know you’ve got a winning tactic, eh? I presume this “analysis” is driven by your mental illness and twisted view of the world. > [@](#): > > Obviously you were lying as not only were you claiming that most were expelled, you’ve repeated that claim just now. This is a fine illustration your mental illness and utterly unhinged manner of interacting. Now, in response to Captain avoiding - for the 2nd time I believe - mentioning expulsion, and saying “fled” - with the clear in my mind call back to the old myth that the Palestinians simply fled _(although I am fair enough minded to allow that to him ‘fled’ does not carry that implication, one can have honestly different reads on the implications of words)_ I corrected him with a one liner (or two, whatever) about most were expelled - yes I said most - and let’s not whitewash this. This of course provoked your deranged rant calling into question my characterisation (although you did admit some expulsions). Now, a reasonable point of dispute is the characterisation “most” - and I can see disagreeing with saying most, although in my mind 50%+ (and where there are arguable professional arguments of more than 50%) most is justifiable. A reasonable reaction is to indeed put one’s finger on that and say, well yes, the New Historians estimate X% blah blah and your “most” is off base. Reasonably put, I could easily agree that "most’ is discussable (as any adjective in this bloody subject). Of course since it’s FrothAgain&Again, that was not in the cards. Now my response to you was simply to quote a wiki paragraph which seemed (and seems whatever your Frothing characterisation) reasonably even handed synthesis. And of course your unhinged reaction not only disagrees with it (what a surprise) but you dredge out an entirely tangential part of said paragraph (that merely cites in passing the existence of a Palestinian’s argument, in conjunction with noting other historian’s argument for 50%+) and attempting to make some kind of deranged argument that … well God knows what the argument really was other than a strange and deranged attempt to smear actually. Your response - well I don’t give your arguments any credence at all. You’re unhinged and fundamentally dishonest in the manner in which you view and characterise anything. Insofar as it is far too much trouble to pick through the swill of your bile and ideologically driven ranting cum tendentious characterisations of anything, I simply ignore them. Now, should someone rational, reasonable and not a bloody mentally ill obsessive-compulsive come along and present a solid argument as to why I am wrong, I should be quite happy to adjust my thinking. Your ranting, however, has quite the opposite effect. > [@](#): > > It take a special kind of scumfuck to say something, slime somone as dishonest for rebutting what they’d just said and allege that person is making it up… and then repeat the same thing. It takes rather a special kind of mentally ill and deranged person to write the above, about this point and the initial interaction as I have summarised (and which anyone so depressed with life can easily review in the prior page or so). The deranged bile you dredge up over even the simplest points and your sheer obsessiveness and lack of any … sense of proportion all really reinforce the impression of mental illness - and that you’re also simply a nasty piece of work with few to no social skills. Your deranged bile really is sad and pitiful. Oh, as to Red and others, quite simply I do not find your unhinged smearing of any and all in disagreement with you as worth even considering or giving second thought to. It is not worth my time. Indeed the liberalness with which you spew your bilious smears makes me discount them entirely. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2010, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finn-agains-wake/532923/948 "2010-04-22T17:49:39Z")
Here’s a good example of Finn clipping my quotes and taking them out of context: > [@FinnAgain](#): > > Oh, and in before your lie that you’ve never weaselly hinted that it’s reasonable to accuse Jew of an inability to disagree with you and analyze facts if they don’t agree with you due to the traitorous influence of their ethnicity… > > > [@spoke-](#): > > > > if I were to make that same criticism of American Jews – that they were allowing their faith (or ethicity, whatever) to influence their views on US policy toward Israel, the howls of “ANTISEMITE!!!” would shake the rafters. Context. Context: > [@spoke-](#): > > > [@Captain Amazing](#): > > > > …that [Carter’s] religious beliefs have led him to an unrealistically high opinion of Jews, and that’s led him to believe that Israel, as a Jewish state, should be held at a higher standard than other countries. > > OK, I understand that criticism (though I disagree). And yet if I were to make that same criticism of American Jews – that they were allowing their faith (or ethicity, whatever) to influence their views on US policy toward Israel, the howls of “ANTISEMITE!!!” would shake the rafters. Captain Amazing had said that Carter’s faith was influencing his view of Israel. I allowed for that possibility (while disagreeing with it) and was merely pointing out the hypocrisy of making such a statement when a similar statement about a Jew allowing his faith to influence his views on Israel would be met with cries of “Anti-Semite!” Thanks, **Finn** , for helping me prove that very point. Interestingly, Captain Amazing’s reply to my post (and unlike you, I will [link it](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12296179&postcount=400) and provide context) was: > [@Captain Amazing](#): > > Well, you are making that same criticism of American Jews. In fact, you’re doing more than that. **Merely saying that Jews, because of their shared faith, tend to be biased towards Israel isn’t really controversial, and I think most people, including most Jews, would agree with you on that.** You’ve gone beyond that, though, to claim that Jews have dual loyalty, to America and Israel. That’s doing more than just claiming that Jews are biased in favor of Israel; that’s calling the patriotism of Jews into question. I can’t speak for anyone else, but I know I personally find that claim offensive. Highlighting mine. You might want to let **Captain Amazing** know you think he is an anti-Semite (or self-loathing Jew, whatever). ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2010, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finn-agains-wake/532923/949 "2010-04-22T18:13:04Z")
> [@wmfellows](#): > > have come to believe now because you are genuinely and without exaggeration, mentally ill…your mental illness…your mental illness…your mental illness and utterly unhinged…your deranged rant…your unhinged reaction…deranged…deranged…bloody mentally ill…mentally ill and deranged…deranged…deranged…It is not worth my time. It seems to be worth _a lot_ of your time, repeated over and over again. Have you ever had a traumatic brain injury? [Perseveration](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perseveration) is relatively common in such cases. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2010, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finn-agains-wake/532923/950 "2010-04-22T18:19:00Z")
Have you ever had piles removed with an ice-cream scoop? ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2010, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finn-agains-wake/532923/951 "2010-04-22T18:56:10Z")
[**Jews Against the Occupation**](http://www.jatonyc.org/) [**American Jews Oppose Israeli Policy in Gaza**](http://www.richardsilverstein.com/tikun_olam/2009/01/22/american-jews-oppose-israeli-policy-in-gaza/) [**Predominantly Jewish And & or Israeli Groups Speaking Out For Justice And Human Rights**](http://qumsiyeh.org/predominantlyjewishlinks/) [**Jews for Justice for Palestinians**](http://jfjfp.com/?page_id=2) [**Jewish Voice for Peace**](http://www.jewishvoiceforpeace.org/) Just a few organizations of Token Jews who see the conflict under the same prism most of the rest of the world does. [**Plenty more where those came from.**](http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&q=jews+against+israeli+occupation&revid=369548468&ei=45nQS7bYFZXK8ATBk7XxDQ&sa=X&oi=revisions_inline&resnum=0&ct=broad-revision&cd=1&ved=0CDAQ1QIoAA) Wonder at exactly what number they stop being “token” and begin to represent a legitimate alternative to the bullies that currently pretend to speak for all Jews – or a very ominous and disqualifying “else,” as we’ve seen and continue to see in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2010, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finn-agains-wake/532923/952 "2010-04-22T19:13:41Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > [**Jews Against the Occupation**](http://www.jatonyc.org/) > > [**American Jews Oppose Israeli Policy in Gaza**](http://www.richardsilverstein.com/tikun_olam/2009/01/22/american-jews-oppose-israeli-policy-in-gaza/) > > [**Predominantly Jewish And & or Israeli Groups Speaking Out For Justice And Human Rights**](http://qumsiyeh.org/predominantlyjewishlinks/) > > [**Jews for Justice for Palestinians**](http://jfjfp.com/?page_id=2) > > [**Jewish Voice for Peace**](http://www.jewishvoiceforpeace.org/) > > Just a few organizations of Token Jews who see the conflict under the same prism most of the rest of the world does. > > [**Plenty more where those came from.**](http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&q=jews+against+israeli+occupation&revid=369548468&ei=45nQS7bYFZXK8ATBk7XxDQ&sa=X&oi=revisions_inline&resnum=0&ct=broad-revision&cd=1&ved=0CDAQ1QIoAA) > > Wonder at exactly what number they stop being “token” and begin to represent a legitimate alternative to the bullies that currently pretend to speak for all Jews – or a very ominous and disqualifying “else,” as we’ve seen and continue to see in this thread. Seems a bit odd to me at least that you can _simultaneously_ believe that there is a legitimate groundswell of Jewish opinion that backs your own - _and_ that Jews, as a group, should be suspect of ‘dual loyalty’ because of their presumed group loyalty to Israel. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2010, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finn-agains-wake/532923/953 "2010-04-22T19:57:29Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Seems a bit odd to me at least that you can _simultaneously_ believe that there is a legitimate groundswell of Jewish opinion that backs your own - _and_ that Jews, as a group, should be suspect of ‘dual loyalty’ because of their presumed group loyalty to Israel. – underline mine. Cite or retract. And on said topic, this is a good read: [**On “dual loyalty.”**](http://walt.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2010/04/09/robert_satloff_doth_protest_too_much) > [@](#): > > \*\*…There is nothing wrong with Ross (or any other American) working for WINEP or chairing the board of an organization like JPPPI. As I’ve emphasized in my previous writings on this topic, I also see nothing wrong with Ross or Satloff, or anyone else for that matter, working to promote America’s “special relationship” with Israel. The same is true for those individuals who support the Cuban-American National Foundation, the American Farm Bureau, the National Rifle Association, or the Indian-American Center for Political Awareness (IACPA). Others may disagree with the policies that these interest groups push, but so be it; that’s how the American political system works. Thus, Satloff’s claim that I am engaged in some sort of McCarthyite witch-hunt is false. > > This brings us to the second question: While all Americans certainly have the right to hold different attachments and to express them openly, is it a good idea for someone with a strong attachment to a foreign country – in this case, Israel – to be given responsibility for making and executing U.S. Middle East policy? > > I believe the answer is no, and that there is ample evidence in the historical record to supports my position. For example, in 1993, the Oslo Accords handed the Clinton administration a golden opportunity to bring the Israeli-Palestinian conflict to a close. The PLO had finally recognized Israel’s right to exist, the Rabin government was genuinely interested in making a deal with the Palestinians, and the Oslo framework had laid out a path to end the conflict. U.S. Middle East policy at the time was guided by Ross and a number of other individuals who had strong attachments to Israel. > > What happened over the next seven years? As Ross’s deputy Aaron David Miller later recalled, the United States acted not as an evenhanded mediator, but as “Israel’s lawyer.” The result was a “peace process” during which Israel confiscated another 40,000 acres of land in the Occupied Territories, built 250 miles of bypass and connector roads, added 30 new settlements, and doubled the settler population, with hardly a peep from Washington. The denouement was the ill-fated Camp David summit in July 2000, a hastily arranged and poorly managed attempt to browbeat the Palestinians into accepting a one-sided deal. It is telling that former Israeli foreign minister Shlomo Ben-Ami, a participant at Camp David, later admitted that “if I were a Palestinian, I would have rejected Camp David, as well.”\*\* ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2010, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finn-agains-wake/532923/954 "2010-04-22T21:18:10Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > – underline mine. > > Cite or retract. > > And on said topic, this is a good read: > > [**On “dual loyalty.”**](http://walt.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2010/04/09/robert_satloff_doth_protest_too_much) It seems basic to the very topic of “dual loyalty” based on ethnic identity. The problems with the position expressed in the article you cite is, basically, the problem with your own position: that there is no practical, objective or disinterested way to identify specific individuals with an alleged “dual loyalty” (or as the author of the article prefers for its alleged non-offensiveness, “conflict of interest”), or to differentiate that from mere ‘difference of opinion’ on a topic; that such selection smacks of McCarthyite “loyalty tests”; that in the past, such language has always been used as a stalking-horse for the most vile sorts of ethnic persecution; and that in the present, it is unashamedly cited by Jew-haters as a reason to exclude those of Jewish ethnicity from participation in public life. Fact is that every individual has various interests and loyalties. When only _one_ group is suspected of “dual loyalty”, and not everyone, the question is not the existance of multiple loyalties - it is the, ahem, _singularity_ of the choice of subject. ---
**Author:** ![ivn1188](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e480ec/32.png) [@ivn1188](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivn1188)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2010, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finn-agains-wake/532923/955 "2010-04-22T23:42:37Z")
Point. Missed. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2010, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finn-agains-wake/532923/956 "2010-04-23T00:34:40Z")
> [@ivn1188](#): > > Point. > > Missed. No kidding. Reads like a backwards woosh. * * * **Malthus** , Couple of points. First off, I note that you have neither, cited nor retracted your claim about my attitude toward Jews in public service. Not surprising really, as I’m certain that you’ll only be able to retract for at no point have I said what you allege me to say – **FrothingFinn’s** continuous allegations to the contrary. Honestly, I thought you were above that (him) and will continue giving you the benefit of the doubt. Secondly, the article says nothing at all that provides for your interpretation re:dual loyalty = Jews. Quite the contrary really – and he goes out of his way to explain it. In order not to insult your intelligence, allow me to suggest you read it again for what you might have missed in what I presume was a quick perusal of same. If I was to give a short analogy of it, I’d bring up Enron’s/Halliburton’s/Cheney’s no-bid contracts in Iraq. “Conflict of interest” springs to mind. Does that clear matters for you? Hope so. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2010, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finn-agains-wake/532923/957 "2010-04-23T01:37:59Z")
My take is similar to **Malthus’**. This article by Stephen Walt (of Mearsheimer/Walt “The Israel Lobby Is Under My Bed” fame) basically boils down to the following: he thinks U.S. support for Israel is a bad thing, anyone who promotes it is working against America’s interests, and contrary to his protestations about being people being free to work on behalf of the issues of their choosing, he believes there is something uniquely bad about supporting Israel. There are people all over government in the U.S. working in support of issues they believe in. Some of those issues have to do with foreign policy. I highly doubt Walt objects to the idea of an individual with foreign policy expertise and “ardent” or “zealous” belief in the righteousness of the Palestinian cause serving in government. It’s when a person who’s a supporter of the _Israeli_ cause is involved that he perceives disturbing influences afoot. That this plays into classic bigoted perceptions of Jews as outsiders seeking to pervert American society for their own ends, bothers Walt not at all. There are basically two reasons why people cling to this “dual loyalty” garbage. Either they’re so wound up in the Palestinian cause that they’re willing to use any tactic they see as furthering their ends, no matter the cost. Or they’re bigots who use the issue as a means to stoke hatred. Sometimes both factors are involved. The unwillingness of posters to drop this tactic reminds me of what sometimes happens when a dog gets hold of the decomposing carcass of a small animal. You can tell him that it’s revolting and to drop it, but his response is to hold onto it more tightly and growl at you. Apparently the impulse to wallow in something slimy and disgusting is overwhelming. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2010, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finn-agains-wake/532923/958 "2010-04-23T03:03:14Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > …There are basically two reasons why people cling to this “dual loyalty” garbage. Either they’re so wound up in the Palestinian cause that they’re willing to use any tactic they see as furthering their ends, no matter the cost. Or they’re bigots who use the issue as a means to stoke hatred. Sometimes both factors are involved… That simply isn’t so. One can also be sympathetic to Israel and her causes, but at the same time think that American policy tilts too far in her favor. Similarly, it is not necessary to think that one would necessarily find divided loyalty an invitation to treason. Many people have no difficulty convincing themselves that their divided loyalties are in harmony, that what’s good for Israel is good for the US, and vice versa. “Traitor Jews” doesn’t even enter into it, its a matter of what biases cloud the judgment of our policy makers. I disapproved of Mr. Wolfowitz long before I ever knew he was Jewish. Perhaps this offers an insight as to why he’s totally wrong, perhaps it doesn’t, it hardly matters, since he’s totally wrong. If he’s wrong because he believes thats what good for America ME-wise is good for Israel, and vice versa, a case could be made for that. It would be wrong, but not irrational, certainly not treasonous. (My spell check wants to change his name to “Halfwits”…) ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2010, 9:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finn-agains-wake/532923/959 "2010-04-23T09:22:45Z")
Won’t… get dragged… back into… this thread… shit. **elucidator** , I have to ask you a question in complete seriousness: Even if you’re correct, and the U.S. is biased towards Israel - is that such a bad thing? God knows, there’s enough nations biased \*against \*us. Don’t we get to have one friend? The U.S. alone, while a formidable country, hardly balances the array of hatred and indifference Israel faces on the global stage. So long as so many hundreds of millions are opposed to us, shouldn’t just one single nation be in our favor? ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2010, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finn-agains-wake/532923/960 "2010-04-23T12:51:08Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > That simply isn’t so. One can also be sympathetic to Israel and her causes, but at the same time think that American policy tilts too far in her favor. Then just say so. Stop impugning the patriotism of your political opponents. Should we jump into discussions where you’re criticizing U.S. military actions and speculate about why you’re allying yourself with al-Queda? So, you’ve got dual loyalty with the enemies of America, hmm? (or the forces of “International Communism”, as you charmingly put it earlier). What’s _really_ behind **elucidator** ’s consistent opposition to U.S. foreign policy goals and objectives? So far there’s only circumstantial evidence, and we could just talk about why he’s wrong on any given issue, but it’s oh-so-tempting to get personal and suggest that he’s a traitor to his country. :rolleyes: [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finn-agains-wake/532923.md?page=47) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/finn-agains-wake/532923.md?page=49)