Fire fighting: how can we prepare for the next emergency?

Factual Questions
21

With that density of property owners, a bond or assessment could raise some money, even before any federal grant. Money would make any potential solutions more practical.

Human nature being what it is, it may be that getting people to agree on this concept could be the biggest problem.

If one area bought themselves a chopper, come the fire they might be able to charge another area for its use…but the discussion during the fire, and the backing-out afterwards (“I never said I’d pay! Why should I, the fire never came within 200 feet of me!”) makes it sound impractical.

Well, the time to try for money would be either right after a fire did some scary damage & it’s on everyone’s minds, or right after you find that the Federal money can be had if there is a well drafted plan and the locals have put up matching money.

22

Just thinking out loud again, if you can’t turn every lot into a desert (and I can understand why you wouldn’t want to), what CAN you do to make the homes and other structures more fire-resistant? During the California wildfires every year, I’m always astonished at news footage that shows burned out homes that aren’t in the middle of a forest, but are actually in suburban developments facing paved streets with curbs, sidewalks and driveways. But they all have quaint wood-shake roofs and pretty cedar siding. Fiberglass shingles and aluminum siding might have been enough to save the neighborhood, at least sometimes. How easily would your house catch fire? Could you clear a least a little space around your house? Maybe 100 feet isn’t realistic, but how 'bout 20 feet? And how much would it cost to put an exterior sprinkler system on your house? You might have to forget about the neighbors and look out for yourself. I have also read of experiments where firefighters have covered homes in the path of forest fires with a fire-retardant, watery gel. It’s a mess to clean up, but it saves the house. If you had some of that on hand you might be able to save homes even while the forest burns around them. Also, are there established firebreaks, cleared zones that would at least contain a fire within a limited area? And is there a strong enforcement effort to keep fires from starting in the first place? Maybe if somebody who started a fire thoughtlessly (like your neighbors burning scrap wood) went to jail, everybody else would be a little more careful.

23

No lampreys then. I recall seeing the last one on our beach while Kennedy was president. And zebra mussels, who knew from them?

Our algae is pretty minimal usually. Lots of swift currents along our beach, rare stink. Even at its worst, it’s not one tenth as bad as the alewife smell. And the mosquitos avoid the shoreline anyway, so we just stick to the beach.

24

Musicat,

Sorry my Wild West advice was inappropriate; I’d assumed your lots where more like 1/2 mile on a side, not a hundred feet or so. I wasn’t trying to be a smartass.

observer makes some good points. I’ve also seen houses with a lawn sprinkler system installed near the crown of the roof. If a fire comes near, the homeowner flips the switch and starts watering their roof. Not a 100% cure, but at this point you’re talking about shaving the percentages in your favor.

I think the most dangerous housing density is about where you are; just dense enough that your neighbors’ actions directly impinge on your safety, and just un-dense enough that everyone acts like they’re the only resident in the forest, and there’s not much money available for an organized citified solution, nor the political will to implement one.

Good luck.

25

The urban wildland interface has been and continues to be a problem plaguing the fire service and homeowners alike. Not all of your advice is inappropriate, LSLGuy.

This article written by former NFPA President George Miller is every bit as accurate today as it was over 3 years ago when penned.

One additional thought regarding water access from the lake-an artificial reef or other structure to create something of an isolated cove 20’ x 50’, together with a sloped ramp for fire access drafting purposes. Protected from wave action, and readily accessible for portable pump and turbo draft action, deployment of equipment would be enhanced.

26

Danceswithcats, your “reef” idea gives me an idea. We have one neighbor, who in 1986, blasted out a tiny harbor in the rock cliff. How he got that one by the DNR (State Department of Natural Resources), we don’t know. Many people were incensed by the destruction. It’s certain he wouldn’t be allowed to do this today. view 1 view 2

But this person’s harbor property, along with a nice house, is now up for sale. The County has proposed that the harbor be enlarged 4X, the house razed, parking lots built, boat ramps constructed, and it become a public boat launch facility. If ever there was a NIMBY outcry, this is the mother of them all. Neighbors are unanimously opposed to, in the middle of a residential neighborhood of narrow, winding roads, 20-40 boats with trailers going past their houses daily. Our Association is using all available resources to fight it, and it is nearly certain that the County will drop the idea.

But this same tiny harbor, which has a reputation for eating boats on the rocks, might work as a water-access point. Just brainstorming here, and I am not a civil engineer, but if a ramp of pavement were constructed to get fire trucks close, they would have a relatively calm place to suck up water, at least in non-winter conditions. And perhaps the house could be sold separately if the ramp didn’t interfere (it’s a fairly wide lot).

We neighbors would have to justify one construction (water access for fire trucks) over the other (public boat ramp). The water access would be considerably less blasting and dredging, and the use of the facility would be limited to emergency, not daily. This might put the idea over the top. I plan to propose this to our Association board and see what develops.

One potential problem. If the county were to purchase the property, now offered at $900,000, they might have a difficult time justifying the cost if it only benefitted a small, local neighborhood. And if our Town (a subset of the county) considered it, the purchase price would dwarf their annual budget of $800,000, and it still wouldn’t benefit but a small corner of the town.

LSLguy, your external sprinkler idea has merit, especially for new construction. I might approach some of the local builders’ associations, perhaps on our Associations’ letterhead, and see if they could recommend it for new plans. Retrofitting might be expensive and sprinklers sound like a help, but not a sure cure. I can’t see switching on the sprinklers, then going back to watching TV until it blows over!

Qadgop, you must have trained your mosquitoes well. Our mosquitoes seem to drift with the wind. With offshore breezes, they follow it to the shore; onshore ones blow them back into the woods.

The algae around here seems to collect at “corners” of coves, especially in rocky areas. Since I am in the middle of a sand bay, I have been mercifully cleaned by currents as you are, but there are stinky spots where I’d hate to live. Still, stepping on popping fish eyballs and spiky bones as we did one year wasn’t pleasant, either. There’s always something. And don’t get me started on goose droppings.

Observer, I will inquire more about the citations and fines for starting a fire. Our local ordinance comes down pretty hard on anyone convicted of starting a fire, even an accidental one, requiring them to pay all losses and fines. But they have to be convicted first. And this may be why the authorities are reluctant to cite them; if they’re not cited, they can’t be convicted. And some people feel sorry for “innocent” mistakes.

27

Ahh, perhaps that explains it. Stately Mercotan Manor is in an area where the beach is all fine sand for a considerable distance north and south. The coastline, such as it is, can change pretty quickly. It’s all like this, pretty much, though the sand is usually drier. We’d been having a lot of rain at that time. (That’s me in the background messing around with a creek, with the Merco-pup just out enjoying the beach.)

28

Firewise has some great resources for wildland/urban interface structure protection. You can also contact your local FD/ Forest Service/ BLM, etc. Many agencies will do FireWise inspections for free which will highlight weak points and make reccommendations.

As far as going to jail, that can be an option, but people can always be billed for a fire they’re liable for. For example, when I worked for the Forest Service in Arizona, they did some investigative work and were able to bill 3 people in Flagstaff for the whole $1.3 million cost of fighting the fire. They’d also be liable for any property damage caused, as well.

29

Rather than fighting the NIMBY, offer FMV and subdivide the lot. Then they sell the $900K house for $850K deeding the access in perpetuity to the association, the County, or whomever. Either that, or in exchange for FMV, create a permanent easement. Access thereto is restricted to firefighting personnel for training and suppression activities only.

30

That’s sorta what I had in mind, and it’s a good idea. What I need to find out first is, is there enough space on the side of the house where the dock is for fire truck parking. If so, the house can stay or be sold exactly as you propose. If not, we couldn’t afford to pay that kind of money just to raze it. It’s a small area, though, and those trucks are real space hogs, especially if they have to turn around.

As if we didn’t have enough troubles, the same day of the last fire, a house was moved down the road 3 miles. It took 2 hours and completely blocked all lanes. If the fire had happened 6 hours earlier, it would have forced the fire engines to go around to the other end of the road, perhaps 15 minutes longer. Longer yet if they had come in the south end before finding their path blocked and having to back up.