# Fire these fucking judges already. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 31, 2005, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fire-these-fucking-judges-already/306233 "2005-05-31T16:40:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Eleusis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Eleusis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eleusis)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2005, 10:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fire-these-fucking-judges-already/306233/41 "2005-06-01T10:21:53Z")
> [@Siege](#): > > Let me see. I have a choice between giving up my freedom, giving up something I enjoy doing, or giving up a few hours on Sunday. It’s not really a hard choice, is it, especially if you don’t want to give up drugs, alcohol, or crime? Well… when you put it like that… ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2005, 11:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fire-these-fucking-judges-already/306233/42 "2005-06-01T11:04:26Z")
Liberal, until you can show how skin colour is relevant to the matter, you should not say “screw you” to those who call you on it. Perhaps a program, be it faith based or not, might help you deal with your problem. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2005, 12:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fire-these-fucking-judges-already/306233/43 "2005-06-01T12:20:56Z")
> [@Siege](#): > > A former friend of mine is a Wiccan who’s very big on AA and similar programs. The ones she went to regularly actually were pagan and/or Wiccan, rather than Christian, and this was in southwest Pennsylvania. She even led AA meetings at a gathering I was running a few years ago, and I can assure you the higher power she was invoking wasn’t Jesus Christ. In my limited, second-hand experience, AA doesn’t have to be Christian-oriented, although I can see how individual groups could easily tilt that way, especially in parts of the country where it tends not to occur to people that someone might not be a Christian. I’ve been to a few AA meetings myself that were faitly nuetral. A higher power was mentioned in a fairly diestic way. It makes sense that they would vary from area to area. Personnally I think AA meetings should focus on rehab and try to remain more nuetral. If you want to have a Christian AA meeting make it make it a seperate one. Let’s not alienate people who might be looking for help by forceing a specific religion down their throats. > [@](#): > > This judge boggles my mind! Look, I’m a devout Christian who’s been through my share of troubles and I do credit God with making it possible for me to get through the worst of them. On the other hand, if going to church alone would have solved my problems, I wouldn’t have wound up in the whole mess in the first place! How is dragging one’s self to church and sleeping through a sermon supposed to cure a serious problem? Has the judge got some personal hotline to Jesus where he can arrange for a miracle cure for each addict who goes to church to get out of jail or rehab, including the ones who are thinking, “Hmmm. Seems like a pretty good scam to me!” Let me see. I have a choice between giving up my freedom, giving up something I enjoy doing, or giving up a few hours on Sunday. It’s not really a hard choice, is it, especially if you don’t want to give up drugs, alcohol, or crime? I see a lot of people bitching here about this judge buut not one of you has offered any kind of alternative solution. Get real!! No system is perfect. We need to explore alternatives because the system we have isn’t working to great. If the judge is giving them a choice, rather than make church service manditory, I see no problem. It won’t work for everybody. It might work for some. There are no gaurentees with any program. How many people does it have to help before it’s better than the “solutions” we have now? As long as the judge lets them choose within reasonable choices its okay. It does not clearly violate seperation of church and state. > [@](#): > > Let me see. Christ said to love God with all your mind. Seems to me this is pretty obviously a sin, but this sentencing policy is incredibly stupid! What does this mean? Whats the sin you’re referring to? ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2005, 12:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fire-these-fucking-judges-already/306233/44 "2005-06-01T12:32:00Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > Liberal, until you can show how skin colour is relevant to the matter, you should not say “screw you” to those who call you on it. Perhaps a program, be it faith based or not, might help you deal with your problem. Try reading his post again. He didn’t say race had anything to do with it. He was making an observation that in that part of the country many more people are white Christians. It’s a statistic, not a racial comment. In addition to my preivious post let me say that I agree with the poster who asked if attending services of other religions was okay. If the judge was pushing his own religion that would be unethical. The offendor should be able to choose Christian, Jewish, Buddhist, or whatever service they choose. I can see that wrinkle leading to some serious issues in some areas. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2005, 12:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fire-these-fucking-judges-already/306233/45 "2005-06-01T12:36:44Z")
Eh? It looks to me that he did say race had something to do with it: > [@Liberal](#): > > I’m not sure it’s much of an issue in London, KY, though. It has 2,653 men, 96% of whom are white. The chances that there’s a pagan or atheist among the criminal element is rather slim On prodding he gives the explanation of WASPs. Certainly seems to me that he is using race as a judge but I may be mistaken. If in fact he is doing so, IIRC, white would actually mean that there is a higher chance of a person being an atheist. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Ashtar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ea924/32.png) [@Lord\_Ashtar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Ashtar)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2005, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fire-these-fucking-judges-already/306233/46 "2005-06-01T13:22:01Z")
> [@Siege](#): > > Has the judge got some personal hotline to Jesus where he can arrange for a miracle cure for each addict who goes to church to get out of jail or rehab, including the ones who are thinking, “Hmmm. Seems like a pretty good scam to me!” Maybe he just plans to give him some [Miracle Spring Water](http://www.peterpopoff.org/). ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2005, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fire-these-fucking-judges-already/306233/47 "2005-06-01T14:11:24Z")
> [@treis](#): > > Eh? It looks to me that he did say race had something to do with it: \*\* It’s a statistic, not a racial comment.\*\* the suggestion was made in the post just before\*\* Libs\*\* that judgement might be more harsh for pagens or muslims, Jews or atheists. Liberal correctly pointed out that that probably isn’t much of an issue in that part of the country because of the high ratio of WASPs per capita. The \*\*fact \*\* that in that part of the country a Pagan, Muslim Jew or Atheist might be the acception to the rule is a **statistic.** You may believe he is incorrect in that statistic but he definately did not imply in any way that whites can’t be atheists or pagens as other posters implied. He also commented that he agreed with the objections in the same post, yet people didn’t hesitate to pull part of his reply out of context and jump all over it. ---
**Author:** ![vibrotronica](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/a9a28c/32.png) [@vibrotronica](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vibrotronica)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2005, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fire-these-fucking-judges-already/306233/48 "2005-06-01T14:56:11Z")
A good friend of mine worked as a drug councelor for a few years. He told me about one court-ordered client who was a hardcore atheist. He wouldn’t admit to any higher power at all, so my friend did what he usually did in these situations: he tried to substitute “something you love dearly” for “higher power”. The only thing the client would admit to loving dearly was a good cheese sandwich, so they tried to use the platonic ideal of the cheese sandwich as the higher power. Needless to say, it didn’t work. ---
**Author:** ![askeptic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/eb9ed0/32.png) [@askeptic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/askeptic)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2005, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fire-these-fucking-judges-already/306233/49 "2005-06-01T15:27:47Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > I have to confess that I don’t understand where your anger is coming from here. I read **Bricker’s** post simply as using a public school perspective as an analogy to argue that AA is a theistic organization (a separate point from whether it’s constitutional for judges offer it as a sentencing option). What am I missing? The situations are not at all analogous. I am not now nor was I then angry with Bricker. His straw men do get tedious though. Public schools are a state run entity any instance of religion will envolve the question of “undue entanglement” judges offering defendants an alternative to confinement envolves the same issue but the answer is not as established as it is where schools are concerned. I respect Brickers legal knowledge and because of this I am frustrated that he throws out this straw man. ---
**Author:** ![glilly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/48db29/32.png) [@glilly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glilly)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2005, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fire-these-fucking-judges-already/306233/50 "2005-06-01T15:45:23Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > Liberal, until you can show how skin colour is relevant to the matter, you should not say “screw you” to those who call you on it. Perhaps a program, be it faith based or not, might help you deal with your problem. It is relevant in that it is an indicator that there hasn’t been much migration into the community over the last half century, so there may well be a very high uniformity in religion. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2005, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fire-these-fucking-judges-already/306233/51 "2005-06-01T17:09:22Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > Liberal, until you can show how skin colour is relevant to the matter, you should not say “screw you” to those who call you on it. Perhaps a program, be it faith based or not, might help you deal with your problem. Stop being so obtuse. White rural mountain people are overwhelmingly Christian. That’s not a comment about race, but about a Christian demographic. You brought up race to tray to derail the point, build a strawman, and wring your hands over it. There are two kinds of racism: singling out people on account of race, and refusing, on account of race, to single out people. You can’t scream both “You’re a racist!” and “Race doesn’t exist!” at the same time. And by the way, for even suggesting such a thing about me, you’re a jackass. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2005, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fire-these-fucking-judges-already/306233/52 "2005-06-01T17:57:48Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > Stop being so obtuse. White rural mountain people are overwhelmingly Christian. That’s not a comment about race, but about a Christian demographic. You brought up race to tray to derail the point, build a strawman, and wring your hands over it. There are two kinds of racism: singling out people on account of race, and refusing, on account of race, to single out people. You can’t scream both “You’re a racist!” and “Race doesn’t exist!” at the same time. And by the way, for even suggesting such a thing about me, you’re a jackass. **Lib** , you’re not making a heck of a lot of sense in this thread. First of all, you’re the one who brought up race, for a reason that is not immediately clear. I agree that there are probably very few non-Christians in this judge’s jurisdiction. However, the racial make up of the town does not reliably indicate anything about its religious make up. I suppose one could argue that the fact that the county is so homogenous racially is an indicator that it will also be religiously homogenous, but that was barely implicit in your post, and anyway is an unproven assumption. I live in Marin County, California, which is also overwhelmingly white (not nearly 96%, though), but contains significant numbers of atheists, pagans, and other non-mainstream or non-Western denominations. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2005, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fire-these-fucking-judges-already/306233/53 "2005-06-01T18:25:26Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > Damn, when you people find something to cry about, you turn that Offense-O-Meter all the way up and just alienate whoever the hell passes by. Screw you. And Guin, too. Maybe the judge isn’t wrong after all. Remember this the next time you start bitching when someone uses the term “fundie.” :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Ashtar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ea924/32.png) [@Lord\_Ashtar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Ashtar)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2005, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fire-these-fucking-judges-already/306233/54 "2005-06-01T18:32:44Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > I live in Marin County, California, which is also overwhelmingly white (not nearly 96%, though), but contains significant numbers of atheists, pagans, and other non-mainstream or non-Western denominations. Just for curiousity’s sake, can you define what you mean by “significant numbers”? I’m not picking a fight with you, I’m just curious. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2005, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fire-these-fucking-judges-already/306233/55 "2005-06-01T18:34:56Z")
> [@vibrotronica](#): > > A good friend of mine worked as a drug councelor for a few years. He told me about one court-ordered client who was a hardcore atheist. He wouldn’t admit to any higher power at all, so my friend did what he usually did in these situations: he tried to substitute “something you love dearly” for “higher power”. The only thing the client would admit to loving dearly was a good cheese sandwich, so they tried to use the platonic ideal of the cheese sandwich as the higher power. > > Needless to say, it didn’t work. Now see, I always thought that “higher power” meant that in this case, your drinking is out of control, so out of control, that you need HELP, and you can’t necessarily do it alone. So, as someone said, the “higher power” could be the group-something that you need to gain control over yourself. Was I wrong? **Liberal** , you seemed to be implying-correct me if I’m wrong!-that because most people in that area are white and Christian, that any NON whites would not be Christian. I’m sorry, but that’s how I read it. Look, I get your point that this place is mostly white/Christian, but that doesn’t mean that any say, blacks who move to the area are automatically NON Christian. And when you used the term “WASP”, well, not all white people are WASPs, either. WASP basically means White ANGLO-SAXON PROTESTANT. You could have a person of Irish descent who is a practicing Catholic, and while they would still be white and Christian, they wouldn’t be Anglo, nor Protestant, would they? ---
**Author:** ![askeptic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/eb9ed0/32.png) [@askeptic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/askeptic)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2005, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fire-these-fucking-judges-already/306233/56 "2005-06-01T18:35:35Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > I live in Marin County, California, which is also overwhelmingly white (not nearly 96%, though), but contains significant numbers of atheists, pagans, and other non-mainstream or non-Western denominations. Not to mention a lot of pot heads, a famous movie maker and people who really don’t like perfume. I used to live in Bolinas, are they still ripping down the sign? 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2005, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fire-these-fucking-judges-already/306233/57 "2005-06-01T18:50:00Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > \*\* It’s a statistic, not a racial comment.\*\* > > the suggestion was made in the post just before\*\* Libs\*\* that judgement might be more harsh for pagens or muslims, Jews or atheists. Liberal correctly pointed out that that probably isn’t much of an issue in that part of the country because of the high ratio of WASPs per capita. The \*\*fact \*\* that in that part of the country a Pagan, Muslim Jew or Atheist might be the acception to the rule is a **statistic.** You may believe he is incorrect in that statistic but he definately did not imply in any way that whites can’t be atheists or pagens as other posters implied. > He also commented that he agreed with the objections in the same post, yet people didn’t hesitate to pull part of his reply out of context and jump all over it. Even so, then the statistic he gave (white) as a justification for assuming that these people are mostly christian is wrong. I don’t have the stats in front of me and correct me if I am wrong but I believe Blacks and Hispanics are more likely than whites to be Christian. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2005, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fire-these-fucking-judges-already/306233/58 "2005-06-01T18:53:49Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > **Liberal** , you seemed to be implying-correct me if I’m wrong!-that because most people in that area are white and Christian, that any NON whites would not be Christian. Okay, you’re wrong. Lib was implying no such thing. Feel better? ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2005, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fire-these-fucking-judges-already/306233/59 "2005-06-01T18:58:11Z")
> [@treis](#): > > Even so, then the statistic he gave (white) as a justification for assuming that these people are mostly christian is wrong. I don’t have the stats in front of me and correct me if I am wrong but I believe Blacks and Hispanics are more likely than whites to be Christian. Holy Smokes. How did such a casual observation get so miscontrued? He didn’t say or imply anything statistical or otherwise about Christianity and blacks or hispanics. He was speaking speaking specificly and only of the population in that area. Can we move on now? Sheesh!!! ---
**Author:** ![vibrotronica](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/a9a28c/32.png) [@vibrotronica](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vibrotronica)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2005, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fire-these-fucking-judges-already/306233/60 "2005-06-01T19:10:45Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Now see, I always thought that “higher power” meant that in this case, your drinking is out of control, so out of control, that you need HELP, and you can’t necessarily do it alone. So, as someone said, the “higher power” could be the group-something that you need to gain control over yourself. > > Was I wrong? IANIAA, but yes, that’s how it’s supposed to work. In this case, the guy was being uncooperative because he had a court order to be there and my friend was at the end of his rope, so they went with the cheese sandwich. Hell, I’d worship an all-powerful cheese sandwich. Communion would be fun. But I want it to have eight arms. Hindu gods are cool like that. None of that “in His own image” shit. And the sandwich should be able to fly. And solve crime, with the help of his sidekick Chippy. And occasionally he will speak to me and tell me which bits of land are promised to me and instruct me in whom I am expected to smite. Yeah, I like the smiting. All will bow before my new god, The Big Cheese! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fire-these-fucking-judges-already/306233.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fire-these-fucking-judges-already/306233.md?page=4)