# Fire these fucking judges already. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 31, 2005, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fire-these-fucking-judges-already/306233 "2005-05-31T16:40:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![askeptic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/eb9ed0/32.png) [@askeptic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/askeptic)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2005, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fire-these-fucking-judges-already/306233/61 "2005-06-01T19:15:53Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > Holy Smokes. How did such a casual observation get so miscontrued? He didn’t say or imply anything statistical or otherwise about Christianity and blacks or hispanics. He was speaking speaking specificly and only of the population in that area. **Can we move on now? Sheesh**!!! Bolding mine. Yea, after you have been here a little longer and the romance between you and \*\*Lib \*\* has cooled you will see how often we have to ask the very same thing when Lib gets into a thread and nit picks it to death. Not that we are nit picking here. \*\*Lib \*\* made a stupid off the cuff remark. By the way he is much better at defending himself than you are **Cos**. We all know that when \*\*Lib \*\* gets defensive he can be a tiger. You should know that I have liked Lib for longer than you have known him, so you really do not have to get all high horsey with me I ain’t trying to flame him. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2005, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fire-these-fucking-judges-already/306233/62 "2005-06-01T19:49:38Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > Holy Smokes. How did such a casual observation get so miscontrued? He didn’t say or imply anything statistical or otherwise about Christianity and blacks or hispanics. He was speaking speaking specificly and only of the population in that area. Can we move on now? Sheesh!!! 😕 Now I am just confused as all hell. He (basically) said that the population was probably Christian becuase they were 96% white. I am fairly certain that is incorrect. They would actually be less likely (on the sole basis of race) to be Christian versus the general population. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2005, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fire-these-fucking-judges-already/306233/63 "2005-06-01T20:39:49Z")
> [@Lord Ashtar](#): > > Just for curiousity’s sake, can you define what you mean by “significant numbers”? I’m not picking a fight with you, I’m just curious. Not really. I don’t have any hard of numbers here, just my anecdotal experience living here my entire life, and having a social circle that’s always been amost entirely made up of atheist/agnostics, non-observant Jews, and various flavors of New Age. We’re definitly still a minority out here, but not to the extent that they seem to be in other parts of the country. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2005, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fire-these-fucking-judges-already/306233/64 "2005-06-01T20:47:59Z")
> [@askeptic](#): > > Yea, after you have been here a little longer and the romance between you and \*\*Lib \*\* has cooled you will see how often we have to ask the very same thing when Lib gets into a thread and nit picks it to death. When **Lib** gets in a nit picking match with folks I usually abandon the thread unless I’m haveing an exchange with someone else not involved with the nit picking. I don’t care who made the comment. I responded because what was read into his post was ridiculous, several times from several posters. > [@](#): > > Not that we are nit picking here. \*\*Lib \*\* made a stupid off the cuff remark. By the way he is much better at defending himself than you are **Cos**. We all know that when \*\*Lib \*\* gets defensive he can be a tiger. You should know that I have liked Lib for longer than you have known him, so you really do not have to get all high horsey with me I ain’t trying to flame him. I don’t agree his remark was stupid. I think what was read into it was a gross misreading of his comment. I am well aware that \*\*Lib \*\* doesn’t need me to defend him. I chose to respond for my own reasons which I am allowed to do. High Horsey with you??? What you quoted from me was not directed at you. In fact this is my first response directly to you. But while we’re on the subject, Your response to his post was pretty silly. His comment that the population there is primarily white Christians said **nothing** even remotely like > [@](#): > > No white atheists or Pagans Thats just a goofy conclusion. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2005, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fire-these-fucking-judges-already/306233/65 "2005-06-01T20:56:02Z")
> [@treis](#): > > 😕 Now I am just confused as all hell. He (basically) said that the population was probably Christian becuase they were 96% white. I am fairly certain that is incorrect. They would actually be less likely (on the sole basis of race) to be Christian versus the general population. No, you interperted his statement incorrectly. He was merely making a statistical observation that in that region they were more likely to be white and Christian than not. He did NOT say they were more likely to be Christians because they were white. See the difference? Its like speaking of Baghdad and saying they are 96% Arab Muslims. The statistic may not be exactly right. Its just a general observation., not a racial comment. Does that clear it up any? ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2005, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fire-these-fucking-judges-already/306233/66 "2005-06-01T21:41:46Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > **Liberal** , you seemed to be implying-correct me if I’m wrong!-that because most people in that area are white and Christian, that any NON whites would not be Christian. I’m sorry, but that’s how I read it. Look, I get your point that this place is mostly white/Christian, but that doesn’t mean that any say, blacks who move to the area are automatically NON Christian. Who said it did? > [@](#): > > And when you used the term “WASP”, well, not all white people are WASPs, either. WASP basically means White ANGLO-SAXON PROTESTANT. You could have a person of Irish descent who is a practicing Catholic, and while they would still be white and Christian, they wouldn’t be Anglo, nor Protestant, would they? No. So what? Are you so bellow headed that you don’t know that White Appalachia is almost 100% Christian? If 96% of a town in Appalachia is White, then it is, as I said, unlikely that a large percentage is atheist or pagan. Why the hell you can’t just listen to what someone says instead of fretting over made up shit that they might have meant is unclear. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2005, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fire-these-fucking-judges-already/306233/67 "2005-06-01T21:43:19Z")
To intercept your next obsessive nitpick, Guin: Rural WA, Protestant Christian. ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2005, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fire-these-fucking-judges-already/306233/68 "2005-06-02T02:28:42Z")
I’m going to regret this… > [@Liberal](#): > > I agree with the complaints. I’m not sure it’s much of an issue in London, KY, though. It has 2,653 men, 96% of whom are white. The chances that there’s a pagan or atheist among the criminal element is rather slim. But still, yeah, wrong is wrong, and this is wrong. > [@Liberal](#): > > Why the hell you can’t just listen to what someone says instead of fretting over made up shit that they might have meant is unclear. What you _said_ was “96% of whom are white.” No mention was given to religion except that the chance of pagans or atheists in that number are slim. All anyone else had to go on, reading those words, was to presume that you were making the logical conclusion that because they’re white, they’re less likely to be pagan or atheistic, to say nothing of other non-Christian religions. Had you said “96% of whom are white, and a vast majority of those Christian,” this shitstorm probably would not have occurred. Say what you mean and don’t leave others to infer something you leave out. If you leave out a key piece of your assertion, such as “the majority in that area are white _and Christian_,” you really have no grounds on which to get your dander up because someone inferred something different than what you meant to imply. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2005, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fire-these-fucking-judges-already/306233/69 "2005-06-02T02:54:44Z")
> [@askeptic](#): > > Sheesh, Bricker. Forget “Undue entanglement” much? Judges can and do impose all kinds of conditions. For example often a person charged with DUI is ordered not to enter any place where the primary purpose is the sale of liquor. Not convicted, charged. The person can say screw that and choose confinement or bail. The same with the sentencing condition. The person can say screw it and choose the jail time. The judge is not ordering them to worship. While the judge is not ordering people to worship, this is a classic unconstitutional condition. _See Sherbert v Verner_, 374 U.S. 398 (1963). If you cannot force someone to do something, such as going to Church, it is really problematic to bribe them to do so, whether it be giving them extra money, or reduce their prison sentence. And if you want to say people are drawing unfair comparisons, comparing conditions of release on bail to conditions imposed in place of incarceration after imprisonment is one heck of a lot worse than comparing (not claiming them to be identical) school prayer and requiring religious attendance on pain of hard time. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2005, 10:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fire-these-fucking-judges-already/306233/70 "2005-06-02T10:11:16Z")
> [@BayleDomon](#): > > I’m going to regret this… > What you _said_ was “96% of whom are white.” No mention was given to religion except that the chance of pagans or atheists in that number are slim. All anyone else had to go on, reading those words, was to presume that you were making the logical conclusion that because they’re white, they’re less likely to be pagan or atheistic, to say nothing of other non-Christian religions. > > Had you said “96% of whom are white, and a vast majority of those Christian,” this shitstorm probably would not have occurred. > > Say what you mean and don’t leave others to infer something you leave out. If you leave out a key piece of your assertion, such as “the majority in that area are white _and Christian_,” you really have no grounds on which to get your dander up because someone inferred something different than what you meant to imply. Well, that’s a good point. However, I believe that the implication was clear, but the inference isn’t up to me. If multiple inferences are possible, it seems logical to consider what you know of the person if your intention is to draw one. I’m no racist, and Guin knows it. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2005, 10:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fire-these-fucking-judges-already/306233/71 "2005-06-02T10:22:02Z")
> [@BayleDomon](#): > > I’m going to regret this… > What you _said_ was “96% of whom are white.” No mention was given to religion except that the chance of pagans or atheists in that number are slim. All anyone else had to go on, reading those words, was to presume that you were making the logical conclusion that because they’re white, they’re less likely to be pagan or atheistic, to say nothing of other non-Christian religions. > Had you said “96% of whom are white, and a vast majority of those Christian,” this shitstorm probably would not have occurred. > Say what you mean and don’t leave others to infer something you leave out. If you leave out a key piece of your assertion, such as “the majority in that area are white _and Christian_,” you really have no grounds on which to get your dander up because someone inferred something different than what you meant to imply. I think if you consider the post just before his and his next one two posts later which made the qualification “WASPs” then the meaning is fairly clear. It certainly seemed obvious to me. You do make a valid point. It’s not the first time I’ve seen this kind of reaction to a comment because of a qualifier that was omitted. ---
**Author:** ![KidCharlemagne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed8c4c/32.png) [@KidCharlemagne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KidCharlemagne)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2005, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fire-these-fucking-judges-already/306233/72 "2005-06-02T13:22:58Z")
> [@askeptic](#): > > Public schools are a state run entity any instance of religion will envolve the question of “undue entanglement” judges offering defendants an alternative to confinement envolves the same issue but the answer is not as established as it is where schools are concerned. But isn’t the answer less “established” because the question hasn’t been asked as often? It would seem the answer is equally clear. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2005, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fire-these-fucking-judges-already/306233/73 "2005-06-02T16:49:07Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > Well, that’s a good point. However, I believe that the implication was clear, but the inference isn’t up to me. If multiple inferences are possible, it seems logical to consider what you know of the person if your intention is to draw one. I’m no racist, and Guin knows it. It should be pretty by clear now that your implication was _not_ clear. I sure as hell couldn’t tell with any surety what you were trying to say. When this happens, why don’t you just try restating your position in plainer language? You seem to have a habit of assuming that anytime anyone doesn’t understand something you’ve posted, they’re doing it out of deliberate, malicious intent. A lot of the time, though, it’s simply because people don’t know what the hell you’re talking about. A little more patience and a lot less defensiveness would go a long way. And where the hell did anyone accuse you of racism? Talk about unwarranted inferences! ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2005, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fire-these-fucking-judges-already/306233/74 "2005-06-02T18:33:44Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > Well, that’s a good point. However, I believe that the implication was clear, but the inference isn’t up to me. If multiple inferences are possible, it seems logical to consider what you know of the person if your intention is to draw one. I’m no racist, and Guin knows it. I’m willing to presume she does know it and hence did not, in fact, make any accusation, as **Miller** said. I went and read the responses more carefully, and what I saw were two confused people made even more confused by your wholly unhelpful one-word clarification and were trying to ask for more. You read offense where there seemed to be none, jumped to the attack, and now the thread is about what you said rather than what the judge said. Really, in **askeptic** ’s case, the misreading could potentially happen, and I could see it, as the language was a little more confrontational. But **Guinastasia** asked a very neutral question without even a smiley to add tone. Isn’t it possible you’re reading way more into her question than is actually there? You certainly seem to assume others should read more into what you actually write. None of us are that important that we should expect others to sit there for however long it takes to tease out meaning in our words. ---
**Author:** ![Cerowyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/82dd89/32.png) [@Cerowyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cerowyn)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2005, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fire-these-fucking-judges-already/306233/75 "2005-06-02T21:17:28Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > Well, that’s a good point. However, I believe that the implication was clear, but the inference isn’t up to me. If multiple inferences are possible, it seems logical to consider what you know of the person if your intention is to draw one. I’m no racist, and Guin knows it. Your implication was not even remotely clear. In fact, it left me completely bewildered. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2005, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fire-these-fucking-judges-already/306233/76 "2005-06-02T21:37:44Z")
Well, then, if that many people take the wrong inference, I concede that my wording was poor. I apologize. If I could write it again, I would say something along these lines: Although I think the judge should not be doing what he is doing, the likelihood that atheists or pagans are being coerced into going to church is remote, given the demographics of London, KY — a rural, predominately white Appalachian small town, such places being strong enclaves of Southern Baptist and Pentacostal Holiness congregations especially, and other protestant Christian denominations to a lesser degree, but recognizing and understanding that certain exceptions can and likely do exist as metaphysical possibilities. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2005, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fire-these-fucking-judges-already/306233/77 "2005-06-02T22:52:04Z")
Homogeneity of religion is very relevant. Homogeneity of colour is entirely irrelevant. Rather than stating that most people in the area are Christian, you stated that “96% . . . are white”, and then lashed out at those who corrected you on this. Apologizing for your poor wording is a step in the right direction, but a more Christian approach would be for you to apologize for lashing out. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2005, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fire-these-fucking-judges-already/306233/78 "2005-06-02T23:19:26Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > Well, then, if that many people take the wrong inference, I concede that my wording was poor. I apologize. If I could write it again, I would say something along these lines: That’s cool. We’re all less than perfectly clear on occasion. > [@](#): > > Although I think the judge should not be doing what he is doing, the likelihood that atheists or pagans are being coerced into going to church is remote, given the demographics of London, KY — a rural, predominately white Appalachian small town, such places being strong enclaves of Southern Baptist and Pentacostal Holiness congregations especially, and other protestant Christian denominations to a lesser degree, but recognizing and understanding that certain exceptions can and likely do exist as metaphysical possibilities. That’s something I can absolutely agree with. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2005, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fire-these-fucking-judges-already/306233/79 "2005-06-03T00:44:06Z")
> [@AskNott](#): > > For those who are not offended, what if the judge were a pagan, and sentenced Christians to attend Wiccan services? Would that be OK? Why not? I really don’t think any of the defendants are gonna complain. Given the choice between a 30 day lockup or 6 weeks of church (or ceremony) attenance, that’s a no-brainer. Hey, you don’t have to _buy into the dogma_, you just gotta show up. Any way you look at it, this is a court sanctioned dodge of a jail term. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2005, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fire-these-fucking-judges-already/306233/80 "2005-06-03T00:58:58Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > Well, that’s a good point. However, I believe that the implication was clear, but the inference isn’t up to me. If multiple inferences are possible, it seems logical to consider what you know of the person if your intention is to draw one. I’m no racist, and Guin knows it. I don’t think you’re a racist, but you tend to make statements that are harder to unravel than a Rubics Cube. I still don’t see how we are supposed to suppose that oh, it’s all Christian because it’s mostly white. The two are necessarily related. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fire-these-fucking-judges-already/306233.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fire-these-fucking-judges-already/306233.md?page=5)