# Firearms question **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [May 16, 2017, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firearms-question/786784 "2017-05-16T19:37:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![DesertDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desertdog/32/11503_2.png) [@DesertDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DesertDog)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2017, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firearms-question/786784/21 "2017-05-17T15:38:01Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > IMO nobody except gun-porn wannabes are looking forward to their first “defensive” shooting. > > But there’s a difference between “I intend only to target shoot and have no expectation of even trying to use it for home defense” versus “I’m intending to learn home defense and be equipped and prepared to do it although I hope I’ll never have to.” > > \ > > You can’t really be both; the groups are mutually exclusive. Home defense is either in, or out, of your intended repertoire. And if in, doing it right the first time becomes the overriding criteria for everything else. Why are they mutually exclusive? I’ve known people who bring a .357 mag. _and_ a Colt Woodsman to a range. It’s like saying a pro football player can’t possible enjoy a game of touch football with his family if he happens to be off some Thanksgiving. I agree wholeheartedly with your first sentence, though. ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2017, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firearms-question/786784/22 "2017-05-17T15:58:13Z")
> [@DesertDog](#): > > Why are they mutually exclusive? I’ve known people who bring a .357 mag. _and_ a Colt Woodsman to a range. It’s like saying a pro football player can’t possible enjoy a game of touch football with his family if he happens to be off some Thanksgiving. > > I agree wholeheartedly with your first sentence, though. I don’t think LSLGuy was saying that recreational shooting and home defense are mutually exclusive. That’s not how I read it; I read it as saying that wanting to defend your home and not wanting to are mutually exclusive. I for one enjoy shooting for fun but also keep my loaded pistol in a mounted safe within reach of my bed. ---
**Author:** ![Bullitt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bullitt/32/5725_2.png) [@Bullitt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bullitt)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2017, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firearms-question/786784/23 "2017-05-17T16:36:27Z")
> [@Atamasama](#): > > I don’t think LSLGuy was saying that recreational shooting and home defense are mutually exclusive. That’s not how I read it; I read it as saying that wanting to defend your home and not wanting to are mutually exclusive. > > I for one enjoy shooting for fun but also keep my loaded pistol in a mounted safe within reach of my bed. I read it that way too. My wife enjoys recreational shooting but she would not want to defend our home or herself with it. She would expressly avoid it. Whereas I would not want to either, but am ready to if needed. No matter what caliber, shot placement is more import than caliber. We are definitely in IMHO territory. ---
**Author:** ![Dallas\_Jones](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dallas_jones/32/3277_2.png) [@Dallas\_Jones](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dallas_Jones)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2017, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firearms-question/786784/24 "2017-05-17T17:28:31Z")
> [@anomalous1](#): > > Apologies, I didn’t specify. I suppose a small handgun, something with more stopping power than a 9mm (Criminal Justice Professor/CPD Detective had told me they are awful when it comes to stopping power) but looks neat, is reliable and fun to shoot. Any ideas of what would match those specs? Suggestions? Just something fun to shoot at the range, I never want to actually have to use it for self-defensive or what have you. > > Also, very aware of the golden rules with firearms, safety always comes first in any aspect of my life. Only aim at what you want to kill, every gun is always loaded, line up before squeezing/ the trigger (never pull). Respect the firearm. > > MODS: Apologies if this treads into IMHO territory, but looking for some more factual responses in term of firearm reliability and such. > > Thanks again! > > SDMB never lets me down! For a starting out pistol, if you just want something fun, reliable, and cheap to shoot, get a .22 caliber Ruger Mark III target pistol (the Mark II’s were better but lawyers got involved). You can learn to shoot, handle, clean, have fun, etc. and then after you know much more about what you want, then worry about such things as stopping power. Don’t buy a Corvette for your first car. ---
**Author:** ![engineer\_comp\_geek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/engineer_comp_geek/32/504_2.png) [@engineer\_comp\_geek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/engineer_comp_geek)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2017, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firearms-question/786784/25 "2017-05-17T17:32:23Z")
**Moderator Action** > [@Bullitt](#): > > We are definitely in IMHO territory. Yep, this has definitely veered into IMHO territory. The OP is still looking for some facts, but also would benefit greatly from some opinions as well, I think. Let’s move this to IMHO where both facts and opinions can be posted. Moving thread from GQ to IMHO. ---
**Author:** ![engineer\_comp\_geek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/engineer_comp_geek/32/504_2.png) [@engineer\_comp\_geek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/engineer_comp_geek)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2017, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firearms-question/786784/26 "2017-05-17T17:56:53Z")
My self defense gun is a .44 magnum revolver (basically, Dirty Harry’s gun). I don’t think I have ever actually recommended someone else getting a gun like that for self defense, though. A 9mm may not be the heaviest round out there, but it has plenty of stopping power and it’s more easily controlled that something like the hand cannon I have. Being able to control the weapon is more important than the “stopping power” that so many folks seem obsessed with. Seriously, a 9mm isn’t bad. Don’t discount it, especially given your requirement that you want something “reliable and fun to shoot”. As far as “looks neat”, that’s definitely going to be a matter of opinion. My neatest looking gun, in my opinion, is an 1851 Colt Navy Revolver. It’s engraved and looks a fair amount like the 1851 revolvers that Wild Bill Hickok used to carry. You may not think that’s a neat weapon though. Some folks prefer revolvers and some prefer semi-autos. I like both, but they are different. As for reliability, revolvers in general tend to be more reliable than semi-autos. The Glock 19 is very reliable, but there’s that 9mm that folks will tell you doesn’t have enough stopping power. If you want something that packs a bit more of a punch, your typical Model 1911 and it’s .45 ACP round is the way to go. There are also about 40 bizillion 1911 variants out there, so getting one that looks neat or has some other characteristic that you like is easy. The Baretta 92 is also a good weapon, IMHO. ---
**Author:** ![MikeG](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mikeg/32/4329_2.png) [@MikeG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MikeG)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2017, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firearms-question/786784/27 "2017-05-17T18:33:33Z")
Wow a lot of info from folks who don’t live in Chicago. I live in Chicago, have an foid card and have rented guns at ranges. Both Maxon and Midwest rent guns. You will have to buy all your ammo from them so they can make a little money off of yours an enjoyable trip, regardless of politics, shooting is fun. ---
**Author:** ![ZonexandScout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zonexandscout/32/544_2.png) [@ZonexandScout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZonexandScout)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2017, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firearms-question/786784/28 "2017-05-17T18:43:27Z")
> [@engineer\_comp\_geek](#): > > My self defense gun is a .44 magnum revolver (basically, Dirty Harry’s gun). I don’t think I have ever actually recommended someone else getting a gun like that for self defense, though. A 9mm may not be the heaviest round out there, but it has plenty of stopping power and it’s more easily controlled that something like the hand cannon I have. Being able to control the weapon is more important than the “stopping power” that so many folks seem obsessed with. > > Seriously, a 9mm isn’t bad. Don’t discount it, especially given your requirement that you want something “reliable and fun to shoot”. > > As far as “looks neat”, that’s definitely going to be a matter of opinion. My neatest looking gun, in my opinion, is an 1851 Colt Navy Revolver. It’s engraved and looks a fair amount like the 1851 revolvers that Wild Bill Hickok used to carry. You may not think that’s a neat weapon though. Some folks prefer revolvers and some prefer semi-autos. I like both, but they are different. > > As for reliability, revolvers in general tend to be more reliable than semi-autos. The Glock 19 is very reliable, but there’s that 9mm that folks will tell you doesn’t have enough stopping power. If you want something that packs a bit more of a punch, your typical Model 1911 and it’s .45 ACP round is the way to go. There are also about 40 bizillion 1911 variants out there, so getting one that looks neat or has some other characteristic that you like is easy. The Baretta 92 is also a good weapon, IMHO. Second. There’s a very wide variety of 9mm handguns available at a broad range of prices. You can choose between hammer or striker, single or double stack, full-size or compact, etc., and almost certainly find one you feel comfortable with. Renting different models is the best way to do this. The key, obviously, is to practice. And to practice you need ammunition. Again, 9mm is a good choice because it is priced reasonably and widely-available. Use jacketed round-nose for practice and then get some higher-performance rounds for self-defense. (Make sure you use enough of the self-defense rounds in practice to feel confident that the weapon cycles reliably.) I usually shoot 150-200 9mm rounds in a practice session and I’m paying $10-$11 a box (50 rounds), so practicing will use up a bit of money. Good luck! ---
**Author:** ![Tranquilis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tranquilis/32/3639_2.png) [@Tranquilis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tranquilis)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2017, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firearms-question/786784/29 "2017-05-17T18:56:36Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > So roughly 1 in 4 ranges experience a suicide in any given year. And the average range will experience a suicide every 4 years. > > That seems like a large number, not a negligible number. I’m not questioning the numeric ‘facts’, just the qualitative interpretation. Run it out over population base, and compare to other means of suicide. It’s a decidedly rare form/venue of suicide. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2017, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firearms-question/786784/30 "2017-05-17T19:44:27Z")
Agreed. Perhaps I didn’t say that as clearly as I meant. What struck me was from the range operator’s POV. I’d be looking at X customer visits per year at my shop. 1 of every 4X customers is going to successfully kill him/herself in my shop. Plus however many almost-successes. That’s starting to become commonplace enough that it’s an issue I need to actually manage, insure, etc., against. Which is not something the average 7-11 or grocery store has to manage against, despite having umpteen times as many customers per year coming through the doors. ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2017, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firearms-question/786784/31 "2017-05-17T19:53:30Z")
> [@engineer\_comp\_geek](#): > > Seriously, a 9mm isn’t bad. Don’t discount it, especially given your requirement that you want something “reliable and fun to shoot”. Yeah… .45 guys are a special breed of opinionated (almost always, it’s rarely another caliber’s fans). Maybe 9mm was underpowered a couple decades ago, but it’s advanced far in capability since. Newer HP rounds, +P and +P+. The US Army/AF just adopted a new pistol… in 9mm. I assume that they at least know a little more than a random internet guy. As it is a first pistol, and 9mm is cheaper than pretty much everything except .22, I recommend that first. > [@Dallas\_Jones](#): > > For a starting out pistol, if you just want something fun, reliable, and cheap to shoot, get a .22 caliber Ruger Mark III target pistol (the Mark II’s were better but lawyers got involved). There’s a Mark IV now. ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2017, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firearms-question/786784/32 "2017-05-17T20:31:09Z")
I went .40 with my gun for the simple fact that my dad and his wife use that caliber and since we shoot together sometimes we can share ammo. But 9mm is fine. A bullet’s stopping power will depend on both mass and velocity (as well as accuracy of course). Ammo comes with different amounts of powder and you can buy rounds with a “grain” or “weight” as low as 52 and as high as 147. A JHP (jacketed hollow point) round will also probably have more stopping power than a FMJ (full metal jacket) but from my experience don’t use JHP at the range. When I shoot a paper target with JHP it rips it apart and I can’t even tell where I hit. I keep a separate cache of FMJ for practice/fun and JHP for self defense, and load separate magazines with different types for convenience. ---
**Author:** ![Tranquilis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tranquilis/32/3639_2.png) [@Tranquilis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tranquilis)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2017, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firearms-question/786784/33 "2017-05-17T20:58:15Z")
> [@thelurkinghorror](#): > > Yeah… .45 guys are a special breed of opinionated (almost always, it’s rarely another caliber’s fans). Maybe 9mm was underpowered a couple decades ago, but it’s advanced far in capability since. Newer HP rounds, +P and +P+. The US Army/AF just adopted a new pistol… in 9mm. I assume that they at least know a little more than a random internet guy. As it is a first pistol, and 9mm is cheaper than pretty much everything except .22, I recommend that first. Heh. The Caliber Wars. 9mm fanboys vs. .45 old farts. Many a flamewar there. Of course, objectively - that is to say, using real world evidence - there’s not much to choose once you get to 9mm. Yes, the best .45acp round _does_ outperform the best 9mm - by about 5%. Seeing as once you get to 9mm, you’re looking at approcimately (given best evidence, and most efficient bullet/load) a 90% one-shot _fight_ stopper (_NOT_ kill!), you can pretty much choose what you want. Does having half again more shots available at 9mm ourweigh the performance of the .45? A lot of folks will say ‘yes’ - but it really doesn’t matter. You shoot what you trust, and if 90% one-shot is good enough, well, who’s to say you’re wrong? If you _don’t_ trust the cartridge, you’ve got no damn business carrying it. (BTW: Performance rank from least to best of the full-power Semi-Auto cartidges went like this: 9mm; .357 Mag (dead heat with best 9mm); .357 Sig; .40 S&W (dead heat with .357 Sig); .45ACP) (any of the above will do a workman-like job) _Edit_: 10mm wasn’t included - insufficient data. Criteria for incident selections was cases where one shot - and one shot only - stopped the fight then and there, without subject escaping or running more than 10 yards. ---
**Author:** ![Tranquilis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tranquilis/32/3639_2.png) [@Tranquilis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tranquilis)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2017, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firearms-question/786784/34 "2017-05-17T21:07:03Z")
Oh, the .357 is more commonly a wheel-gun load - but there’s more than sufficient evidence to draw a conclusion. .44 Magnum not included due to lack of data, as was the case with .44 Special, .41 magnum, and other obscure rounds. .38 Special, including +P and +P+ came in a bit under 70%. Other rounds fared sequentially worse. ---
**Author:** ![Oredigger77](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/oredigger77/32/3181_2.png) [@Oredigger77](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oredigger77)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2017, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firearms-question/786784/35 "2017-05-17T21:33:43Z")
I’ll put a plug in for the choice I made. I own a .357 mag because it is a fine self-defense round in the .357 hollow point and cheap to shoot in the .38 special so I can go target shooting with my 9 mm friends for only 3x their cost. ---
**Author:** ![anomalous1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e56c9b/32.png) [@anomalous1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/anomalous1)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2017, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firearms-question/786784/36 "2017-05-18T00:43:31Z")
I’ll clarify for a reply post, I would of course use it for defending my home/self/family, Its just not a situation a look forward to. I’ve been hearing good things about a Glock 19 clone by Springfield, my cousin owns one and says its extremely fun and well built. I’m going to look into what that one is. From here on out I won’t discount 9mm firearms given the replies I’ve gotten. Makes great sense. Thanks! .22 Is out, I actually fired one before and it feels like a toy (given I know its not and i still respected it). I want the, you know, satisfaction you get when firing a round. Thanks! ---
**Author:** ![Tranquilis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tranquilis/32/3639_2.png) [@Tranquilis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tranquilis)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2017, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firearms-question/786784/37 "2017-05-18T01:57:04Z")
> [@Oredigger77](#): > > I’ll put a plug in for the choice I made. I own a .357 mag because it is a fine self-defense round in the .357 hollow point and cheap to shoot in the .38 special so I can go target shooting with my 9 mm friends for only 3x their cost. .38/.357 are very easy to reload, though, so if you shoot a lot, a simple hand press can quickly bring your costs more in-line. If you go with a more capable press, it might be a while before your savings amortize the cost of the equipment. I actually shoot my Ruger Redhawk with rubber practice bullets - pushed by just the primers, they’re easily trapped and are even re-usuable. Not the same as a full-fat load, but for trigger and sight control, it’s more than adequate. Reloading those is dead simple: de-cap and re-prime, then push the rubber projectile into the case, and you’re done. The necessary tools are basic and inexpensive, and the bullets are available on-line from any number of sources. > **[Google](https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=rubber+projectiles+.357&spf=1495072584102)** > > Search the world's information, including webpages, images, videos and more. Google has many special features to help you find exactly what you're looking for. ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2017, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firearms-question/786784/38 "2017-05-18T03:08:34Z")
> [@anomalous1](#): > > I’ll clarify for a reply post, I would of course use it for defending my home/self/family, Its just not a situation a look forward to. It shouldn’t be, but you should be willing to if necessary. > [@](#): > > I’ve been hearing good things about a Glock 19 clone by Springfield, my cousin owns one and says its extremely fun and well built. XD or XDM. Not a clone, but fills a similar niche. They’re actually rebranded HS2000 made in Croatia. You can get a CZ (my preference) or Glock and also get a .22 conversion kit, so you can shoot both and it feels like a non-toy. ---
**Author:** ![drewder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/57b2e6/32.png) [@drewder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drewder)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2017, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firearms-question/786784/39 "2017-05-18T04:13:11Z")
> [@anomalous1](#): > > I’ll clarify for a reply post, I would of course use it for defending my home/self/family, Its just not a situation a look forward to. I’ve been hearing good things about a Glock 19 clone by Springfield, my cousin owns one and says its extremely fun and well built. I’m going to look into what that one is. From here on out I won’t discount 9mm firearms given the replies I’ve gotten. Makes great sense. Thanks! .22 Is out, I actually fired one before and it feels like a toy (given I know its not and i still respected it). I want the, you know, satisfaction you get when firing a round. Thanks! The one I just bought is a walther ppq 9mm and I love it. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2vZECdsdKEg](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2vZECdsdKEg) ---
**Author:** ![anomalous1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e56c9b/32.png) [@anomalous1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/anomalous1)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2017, 6:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firearms-question/786784/40 "2017-05-18T06:47:19Z")
> [@thelurkinghorror](#): > > It shouldn’t be, but you should be willing to if necessary. > > XD or XDM. Not a clone, but fills a similar niche. They’re actually rebranded HS2000 made in Croatia. > > You can get a CZ (my preference) or Glock and also get a .22 conversion kit, so you can shoot both and it feels like a non-toy. Definitely willing to. :smack: Thats the one! I’ve had my eye on it for a while. Felt “right” in my hand as well, although that Walther PPQ looks fierce. Thanks! I have some options now, just going to check youtube a bit and see comparisons. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firearms-question/786784.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/firearms-question/786784.md?page=3)